United Healthcare CEO killed

[BSR]

7 minutes ago, ApexNomad said:

Healthcare is a fundamental right.

I never understood this argument, nor do I agree.  Food isn't a fundamental right, clothing isn't a fundamental right, housing isn't a fundamental right, no other human need is a fundamental right.  Yet so many believe that healthcare is.

[+ ApexNomad]

7 minutes ago, BSR said:

I never understood this argument, nor do I agree.  Food isn't a fundamental right, clothing isn't a fundamental right, housing isn't a fundamental right, no other human need is a fundamental right.  Yet so many believe that healthcare is.

Food, clothing, and housing are also fundamental needs, and while no one is suggesting they must all be provided for free, we do acknowledge a collective responsibility to ensure people don’t starve or freeze. That’s why we have programs like SNAP, public housing, and shelters. Healthcare is no different—it’s about protecting lives and giving people the chance to contribute to society. A system that allows people to die or suffer unnecessarily because they can’t afford care is one that undermines the very fabric of our humanity and community.

[+ ApexNomad]

25 minutes ago, BSR said:

I never understood this argument, nor do I agree.  Food isn't a fundamental right, clothing isn't a fundamental right, housing isn't a fundamental right, no other human need is a fundamental right.  Yet so many believe that healthcare is.

The concept of healthcare as a fundamental right stems from the basic principle that access to life-sustaining care is essential to human dignity and equality. Healthcare is not simply a commodity to be purchased by those who can afford it—it is a moral and practical imperative for any society that values its people.

Legally, we’ve already acknowledged healthcare as a right in specific contexts. For example, emergency rooms are required to provide stabilizing treatment regardless of ability to pay. Programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and CHIP ensure healthcare access for specific populations.

These systems don’t exist in isolation—they reflect a collective recognition that no one should die or suffer needlessly because they were born into poverty or marginalized circumstances.

As a gay man, I know firsthand how the denial of healthcare can affect a community. As many of us here do. The early years of the AIDS epidemic revealed how disastrous it is when healthcare is treated as a privilege rather than a right. Without accessible treatment, people—like so many of our brothers and sisters—were left to die because they didn’t have insurance, or were denied coverage altogether. The LGBTQ+ community fought for their lives—and for equitable healthcare—and made progress. That fight taught us that healthcare disparities are deeply tied to systemic discrimination, and unless access is treated as a right, the most vulnerable will always suffer the most. It’s a reality that still brings me to tears.

This is not just a philosophical issue—it’s about creating a society where everyone has the opportunity to live fully. We provide public funding for education, clean water, and other public goods because we understand that certain rights are necessary for the success and sustainability of a society. Healthcare must be viewed the same way.

[BSR]

4 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Food, clothing, and housing are also fundamental needs, and while no one is suggesting they must all be provided for free, we do acknowledge a collective responsibility to ensure people don’t starve or freeze. That’s why we have programs like SNAP, public housing, and shelters. Healthcare is no different—it’s about protecting lives and giving people the chance to contribute to society. A system that allows people to die or suffer unnecessarily because they can’t afford care is one that undermines the very fabric of our humanity and community.

I see a difference between a moral and a legal obligation.  While I agree we have a moral obligation to help the homeless, I don't think we should be forced to pay for housing for all homeless.  In contrast, I view a trial by jury and legal representation as legal obligations.

I could expound on my reasoning but shan't for 2 reasons:  doing so will inevitably become a (prohibited) political discussion (collective responsibility-->collectivism-->communi ... oops, better stop!), and perhaps more important, I am quite sure that nothing I say will change your mind even one iota.

Edited December 16, 2024 by BSR
Typo + word choice

[+ Italiano]

8 hours ago, augustus said:

Wasn't long ago that Obamacare was supposed to bring down costs and deliver better healthcare and all its supporters passionately believed it would work.  Well, what happened????  The system pre-Obamacare was better and less expensive.  A high-risk pool could have been set up to cover those with pre-existing conditions.

Socialized medicine healthcare is great for routine care and abysmal for other needs.  It's a death sentence for people with cancer and heart disease.  

WOW! We must have lived in two different USA before 2009....🙄

I am SO waiting for next year's "CONCEPT", anyway.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Italiano

[pubic_assistance]

6 hours ago, BSR said:

While I agree we have a moral obligation to help the homeless, I don't think we should be forced to pay for housing for all homeless. 

Who gets go determine this morality ?

Most "homeless" aren't just lacking a home.

Health insurance used to be for hospitalization..not regular care. You paid your doctor / you paid for your medication. By wrapping everything into insurance coverage they merely made all the normal expenses MORE expensive becasue now there's a gigantic pile of money to draw from...and everyone raised their prices to take advantage of it.

Edited December 16, 2024 by pubic_assistance
spelling

[+ augustus]

45 minutes ago, Italiano said:

I am SO waiting for next year's "CONCEPT", anyway

So am I.  Can't wait.  Your side has been right along.🙄

[+ augustus]

42 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

By wrapping everything into insurance coverage they merely made all the normal expenses MORE expensive becasue how there's a gigantic pile of money to draw from.

Exactly.  Unlimited demand has been created.  There are people who never go or sparingly go to doctors, like me.  There are many others that go to the doctor or the ER because they have a stubbed toe or the sniffles.  

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, augustus said:

There are many others that go to the doctor or the ER because they have a stubbed toe or the sniffles.  

Exactly.

By creating a "health insurance" system  instead of "hospitalization insurance" they built a monster that needs to be fed.

I remember going to the doctor when I was a kid. My mother would PAY the doctor with a few $20s. When you'd go to the pharmacy for medication you'd PAY for your medicine. Also $10 or $20. Now the insurance system is so bloated with cash that everyone from Hospitals to Pharmaceutical companies are happily suckling at its teet. Most everyone who travels to Mexico makes a stop at LaFarmacia to take advantage of the prices on pharmaceuticals that are 10x cheaper for the SAME drugs. Only in America can they get away with this theft. Because we are all FORCED to participate !!

Edited December 16, 2024 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[+ José Soplanucas]

I do not think we understand what is going on here. I know I do not. We have teens killing themselves, teens rooting for other teens to kill themselves, parents who cannot control their children, vigilantes patrolling the streets, facts do not exist anymore, when we debate we do not try to understand the other but to destroy the other, truth has no value as instead what ever our tribe defends becomes truth, a privileged guy executes another privileged guy and the majority reacts cheering the killing and asking for the killer freedom, the list can go on and on and on. And this is not only the US, but I also see it at least in Argentina and Brazil.

But we still pretend to understand and still root for our decades/centuries long beliefs like we know what is going on. 

I am fascinated at the reaction at Luigi's act, and thrilled at whatever is coming because I am always thrilled at radical change. But I am pessimistic about the direction this radical change is heading. And sometimes I am afraid that some day a student who perceived I did not treat them fairly or their relatives may attack me when I do not expect it. 

That is what I meant for disintegration and anomia. I do not think it is fruitful to look for scapegoats and assign responsibilities and guilt, or to continue to try to understand reality from the same frame we are used to. I do think that our technology changed faster than our culture, and the process to make the necessaries adjustments is not going to be nice. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

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[+ Vegas_Millennial]

15 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

...comprehensive reform would require tackling these systemic inefficiencies and misaligned incentives to create a system that prioritizes prevention, affordability, and equitable access for everyone.

In such a system, the alleged assassin would still be denied further surgery.  He had his surgery.  Move on to the next.

[marylander1940]

10 hours ago, BSR said:

I never understood this argument, nor do I agree.  Food isn't a fundamental right, clothing isn't a fundamental right, housing isn't a fundamental right, no other human need is a fundamental right.  Yet so many believe that healthcare is.

I think healthcare is a right, and also a responsibility.

We all should contribute and help each other when we need it, whether is a car accident, cancer, etc.  sooner or later, we'll need to go to the ER/Doctor for different reasons and no one should be kicked out. 

We must also be responsible! Many health issues in this country are connected to our lack of responsibility when it comes to obesity, diabetes, drug addiction, HIV, etc. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

11 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

Food, clothing, and housing are also fundamental needs, and while no one is suggesting they must all be provided for free, we do acknowledge a collective responsibility to ensure people don’t starve or freeze.

Many disagree, including me.  If someone is physically able to work and chooses not to, then many believe there is no collective responsibility to keep him fed or warm.

The assassin also had a fundamental right to carry a firearm; but, it is not my responsibility to purchase it for him.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Vegas_Millennial

[Cooper]

Administrator’s Message

Gentlemen,

I think this is a good time to remind you to stay on topic and avoid political issues about government run health plans and gun rights. 

Thanks

[dutchal]

Mangione has hired a New York attorney, who is the wife of Sean Diddy's attorney.  Waiver of extradition is now expected as early as tomorrow.

https://www.npr.org/2024/12/14/nx-s1-5229022/luigi-mangione-defense-lawyer-karen-agnifilo

https://nypost.com/2024/12/14/us-news/luigi-mangione-and-sean-diddy-combs-lawyers-are-married/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/unitedhealthcare-ceo-killing-latest-luigi-mangione-expected-waive/story?id=116822291

 

 

[Rudynate]

On 12/5/2024 at 7:44 AM, rvwnsd said:

Who contacts the widow shortly after her late husband's murder and requests her reaction? What do they expect her to say?

That said, yes, hanging up the phone would be my first reaction. Perhaps the shock impaired her thinking?

 

They were estranged and living apart.

[Rudynate]

On 12/9/2024 at 6:00 PM, EastCoastBtm said:

I didn't get the 'back' reference earlier.... but this is from his X.com page

 

L5-S1 fusion.

[Luv2play]

1 hour ago, Rudynate said:

They were estranged and living apart.

If that was the case why are they still referring to him as a loving husband. I get the father bit. But an estranged husband is not usually referred to that way. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

And another school shooting with so far three kids dead, counting the shooter. This is what I am talking about, the issue is not only greedy corporations and crazy hot vigilantes.

[mike carey]

Gentlemen, a reminder that Cooper's note closes discussions about the rights and wrongs of the health care system, and the individual and collective actions that affect health outcomes. That includes not replying to points that had been made before the note if they don't relate to the topic of the CEO and his alleged killer.

We have hidden several posts that added to the closed elements of the conversation. Thank you for your continued efforts to stay on topic.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 12/11/2024 at 6:09 PM, Luv2play said:

I remember people saying that about OJ as well. Then jury nullification happened, to the surprise of almost everyone.

In the OJ case, it was the jurry in Nevada who finally sent his ass to prison.

If New Yorkers fail to imprison the assassin, then hopefully the charges in Pennsylvania will lock this guy away.

[+ augustus]

1 hour ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

If New Yorkers fail to imprison the assassin, then hopefully the charges in Pennsylvania will lock this guy away.

The evidence of Mangione's guilt is overwhelming.   What the defense lawyers will do is try to mitigate the punishment with an insanity or extreme emotional disturbance defense.  

[dutchal]

12 hours ago, augustus said:

The evidence of Mangione's guilt is overwhelming.   What the defense lawyers will do is try to mitigate the punishment with an insanity or extreme emotional disturbance defense.  

The extreme emotional disturbance defense, if proven by the defense, would only reduce the charge from murder to manslaughter but there would still be a criminal conviction and a jail term.

Mental disease or defect (the technical name for the insanity defense in New York), if proven, would then result in hearings as to the defendant's present mental condition and potentially involuntary commitment.

[+ nycman]

The fact that he clearly had a premeditated plan and ran afterwards shows he knew what he was doing was wrong. That pretty much blows a hole right in the middle of any "insanity" defense. If he’s smart (and I believe he is incredibly smart), he will turn on the charm in court. Despite what I said above, he only needs one vote to set him free.

The odds of this kid walking free are slim, but we all know (given our shitty legal system) it’s not zero.