Pope Blesses Same Sex Unions

[Luv2play]

Today it was announced that the Roman Catholic Church can henceforth bless same sex unions. There are some conditions but the message was clear that Pope Francis is breaking new ground in the area of sexuality and the Church he leads.

Of course, not surprisingly, gay marriage is not in the cards (yet) for gay Catholics who which to have their marriages sanctified by the Church. Marriage is still defined by the Church as a  union between a man and a woman.

And the reactionary part of the Church, including some prominent cardinals and bishops, will continue to be opposed.  Even individual priests may refuse to do it but it seems many will be willing to do so. 
 

Certainly a red letter day for some gays.

[BSR]

A red letter day indeed.  There has long been a conflict between conservatives and liberals in the Church hierarchy.  It's all behind closed doors, of course, but one does hear things.  This latest move by Pope Francis is big victory for the liberals whereas it must have thrown the conservatives in a tizzy, LOL.

While Pope Francis appears quite healthy and vigorous, he turned 87 yesterday.  As a practical matter, he simply won't be around much longer.  The LGBT friendliness of the RCC all depends on the political leanings of the next pope.

This shift by Francis reflects the attitude of North American and Western European Catholics.  While the Church does teach that homosexuality is a sin, I've found that the vast majority of practicing Catholics to be very gay-friendly.  It's similar to the divide on the Church's teaching on abortion.  Despite the Church's staunch opposition to abortion, so many Catholic women are quietly pro-choice.

[Guest]

Too little, too late as far as I’m concerned. As an institution it has squandered any moral authority it might have had left with its mishandling of rampant sexual abuse. It would have so much to offer if it could only clean its own house and reform. Sadly, over a thousand years of history suggests it can’t.

[spidir]

I like it and welcome the hope that this change offers to gay Catholics and their families.

 

[wsc]

1 hour ago, BSR said:

 While the Church does teach that homosexuality is a sin ...

By way of clarification - the church does not teach that the condition -being homosexual- is sinful, just that homosexual acts are sinful; and I don't mean wearing tight jeans, if that's still a thing.

To me, all this is about as relevant and meaningful as Trekkies at a convention discussing the proper conjugation of Klingon nouns; it's all made-up and pointless. Who cares?

[Bokomaru]

15 minutes ago, wsc said:

Who cares?

People who consider themselves Catholic and gay. 

[Guest]

Qapla! (I did once own a Klingon/English Dictionary.) I mean no disrespect to those among us in the faith; it’s my own personal view having devoted years journeying through it myself.

[+ WilliamM]

1 hour ago, spidir said:

I like it and welcome the hope that this change offers to gay Catholics and their families.

 

and for my first cousin who  very liberal still at age  of  86

She  is nun who agreed tol learn French for the first 25 years ago

 

 

[pubic_assistance]

The only way to end the massive problem with child molestation amongst Catholic Priests is to normalize them and allow them to have adult relationships. Gay or straight. I hope recognition of same sex couples could include members of their own clergy. 

[Luv2play]

9 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

The only way to end the massive problem with child molestation amongst Catholic Priests is to normalize them and allow them to have adult relationships. Gay or straight. I hope recognition of same sex couples could include members of their own clergy. 

That might be a bridge too far at this point.

[BSR]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

The only way to end the massive problem with child molestation amongst Catholic Priests is to normalize them and allow them to have adult relationships. Gay or straight. I hope recognition of same sex couples could include members of their own clergy. 

But do pedophiles have any interest in adult relationships?

My theory is that pedophiles used to seek out the priesthood because back in the day a priest had both access to children and unquestioned moral authority.  The Church hierarchy made a horrible problem a thousand times worse by plunging into denial ("but they're men of God!").

The Church finally pulled its head out of the sand and confronted the issue:  much more stringent screening of seminary candidates and immediate & thorough investigations into any report of sexual misconduct.  To survive this tragedy, the Church must maintain the strictest vigilance.

[BSR]

2 hours ago, Luv2play said:

That might be a bridge too far at this point.

The official line is that the priesthood is a ministry conformed to the life and work of Jesus Christ.  The Church didn't always require celibacy -- priests could marry in early Christianity.  Since the Church imposed celibacy for the holy orders in medieval times and the canon of papal infallibility started only in 1870, the celibacy requirement could technically be revoked.  But realistically, yes, the likelihood is virtually zero.

 

[+ sync]

As an agnostic, I'm always on the outside looking in regarding faith issues.  I see the Pope's action as trying to go both ways at a fork in the road.  I am, however, pleased that homosexuals who are of the Catholic faith are getting some respectful recognition.

For many of all religious beliefs in these awful times the one and only thing that keeps them grounded is their faith commitment.

[+ Pensant]

6 hours ago, BSR said:

The official line is that the priesthood is a ministry conformed to the life and work of Jesus Christ.  The Church didn't always require celibacy -- priests could marry in early Christianity.  Since the Church imposed celibacy for the holy orders in medieval times and the canon of papal infallibility started only in 1870, the celibacy requirement could technically be revoked.  But realistically, yes, the likelihood is virtually zero.

 

The only exceptions are Episcopal/Anglican priests who switch over to the RC priesthood. Also, priests in the Uniate churches, based in Galicia, near L’viv in western Ukraine and under papal authority, may marry. So there is precedent to change the clerical celibacy rule.

[marylander1940]

11 hours ago, Bokomaru said:

People who consider themselves Catholic and gay. 

and used condoms before PrEP. 

Besides 98% of Catholic women use contraception! 

[soloyo215]

Good for gay catholics. In my experience, having grown up a non-catholic in a catholic-dominated society, I can see the importance and relevance of it, even from people who are no longer religious or religious but not catholic. In my observation I have seen the influence of the catholic religion in many gay men, them not even noticing how it impacts the way they think, act, behave and decide, especially around sex. It's very evident to those who can see it from the outside because we grew up out of that faith, but it's very ingrained in many people and don't even realize it.

I know this is relevant to catholic LGBT people, so I'm glad to hear that there is at least a minor step in the right direction in reconciling some people's faith and who they are. My own beliefs are not relevant in this conversation, as it is about those who follow the catholic faith.

Edited December 19, 2023 by soloyo215

[marylander1940]

7 hours ago, BSR said:

The official line is that the priesthood is a ministry conformed to the life and work of Jesus Christ.  The Church didn't always require celibacy -- priests could marry in early Christianity.  Since the Church imposed celibacy for the holy orders in medieval times and the canon of papal infallibility started only in 1870, the celibacy requirement could technically be revoked.  But realistically, yes, the likelihood is virtually zero.

 

The main reason to keep priests unmarried is money and control, if they're allowed to get married, they'll need to have another job or get paid more to, they would also need to live outside the convent unless rooms are adapted to house a family. 

Allowing priests and nuns to get married would also be beneficial for Europe's declining demographic. 

In the meantime, in most Muslim countries gay sex is illegal and in those who get caught either go to jail, or are thrown from the rooftop of a building... 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by marylander1940

[CuriousByNature]

I think this is a massive development.  Not just for same-sex Catholic couples but for the church as a whole.  I'm not Catholic myself, but I understand that many Catholic people's views are still influenced to some degree by the views of the Pope.  This Pope has gone a million times further than any in recent history with respect to compassionately shining a light on matters that were literally closeted away for hundreds and hundreds of years.  I have a feeling he waited until Benedict passed away for taking this step, since Benedict was staunchly conservative and Francis may have wished to avoid any duels with the Pope Emeritus.

[+ WilliamM]

3 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

The main reason to keep priests unmarried is money and control, if they're allowed to get married, they'll need to have another job or get paid more to, they would also need to live outside the convent unless rooms are adapted to house a family. 

Allowing priests and nuns to get married would also be beneficial for Europe's declining demographic. 

In the meantime, in most Muslim countries gay sex is illegal and in those who get caught either go to jail, or are thrown from the rooftop of a building... 

 

 

Some priests I knew had girl friends.  And that was in the 1960s

One  was my uncle.

[BSR]

5 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

 I have a feeling he waited until Benedict passed away for taking this step, since Benedict was staunchly conservative and Francis may have wished to avoid any duels with the Pope Emeritus.

Pope Benedict was in very poor health the last ~2 years of his life.  For example, he issued a written statement in Dec 2020 that he had lost the ability to speak.

As much as the Church leadership strives to project peace and unity, political conflict has always raged behind the scenes.  I agree that Francis waited until well after Benedict's death to make his gay-friendly announcement, but it wasn't to avoid a duel with the Pope Emeritus, because Benedict was in no condition to mount a challenge. 

Instead, it was a politically motivated decision to pacify the conservatives.  To make such an announcement while Benedict was still alive or even shortly after his death would have been viewed (imo) as very disrespectful.

[dutchal]

The significant presence of sexual abuse among Protestant ministers, Jewish rabbis, and boy scout leaders, among other groups, shows both that celibacy is not the root cause of the problem and that the real issue is power/authority + access.

Also, contrary to the apparent assumption in some of the posts above, the issue in the Catholic church is not just homosexual pedophilia.  Pieces of the problem include both heterosexual pedophilia and sexual abuse--both hetero and homo--of people over the age of majority.

[Marc in Calif]

Can someone explain the difference between "blessing" and "sanctifying"?

Thank you!  😇

[Jamie21]

I really don’t care what the Pope thinks, says or does. He’s only the Pope because people make him so. I don’t accept that he has any say whether a man can marry another man. The Church (any Church) only exists because some people want to exert control over others using things like threats, coercion, stories, social control and guilt. 

[Guest]

Oh religion.... you've had to give up so much ground haven't you.... I'm with you @Jamie21 🙌🏽

[Guest]

1 hour ago, dutchal said:

The significant presence of sexual abuse among Protestant ministers, Jewish rabbis, and boy scout leaders, among other groups, shows both that celibacy is not the root cause of the problem and that the real issue is power/authority + access.

Also, contrary to the apparent assumption in some of the posts above, the issue in the Catholic church is not just homosexual pedophilia.  Pieces of the problem include both heterosexual pedophilia and sexual abuse--both hetero and homo--of people over the age of majority.

From my perspective, the problem isn’t just that it happened, but that it was allowed to happen and then covered up. To make matters worse, they slow-rolled child protections, shielded assets needed to compensate victims, failed to hold church leadership accountable, penalized whistleblowers, and on and on. I’m not a victim, but the church will find no forgiveness here. Some general apology 200 hundred years from now (as in the case of so many of the church’s other atrocities) just isn’t going to fly with me. I don’t see anything of Christ in this church. I guess I’m really pissed off about this….