Is the American dream dead? Have YOU achieved it?

[Jim_n_NYC]

I would posit that since most of the people here are able to spend money on massages and escorts, they aren't a great sample of the full spectrum of the American citizenry...I doubt people struggling to get by and/or living paycheck to paycheck are going to be having weekly massages or escort sessions.

[+ WilliamM]

23 hours ago, Charlie said:

It depends on how one defines "The American Dream." If one uses the definition posted above, then I did achieve it, in "The American Way:" I got much more formal education than my parents did--they were both high school drop-outs, while I ended up with three higher education degrees from top schools. As a result, I got better-paying stable jobs. That was what my parents dreamed would happen to me. But America also changed over our lifetimes, because unlike my parents, I didn't live through an economic collapse and a Great Depression which forced them to work at whatever jobs they could get to support their parents, who didn't have Social Security to help them survive through the first years of the Depression. I graduated from high school into a thriving post-war economy, which enabled my parents to afford to send me to college, when tuition, room and board at a good private college cost less than $2000/year. Of course, I did my part by getting good grades, which got me scholarships and work-study jobs that minimized what it cost my parents, and my first graduate degree was covered entirely by a fellowship.

Sociologists would probably have described my parents as respectable lower-middle class. I would probably be considered lower-upper-middle class, based on my education, work history, social connections and financial assets. Their/my dream came true. The question is whether the members of an American family today could rise in the same way by the same means.

My dad died young (53),  but he taught college math in Canada and later was a successful engineer near Boston

My American dream didn't include being drafted and serving in Asia 

[Guest]

Success and "the American dream" is so subjective.....  I can only speak on my path, my journey, what I sought out to do, and my own level of satisfaction/happiness....

Every so often,I need to stand back from my life and look at it. Try to understand it, see if it's what I want it to be. I try to do it often. And I have to say mine is pretty good. I am far from perfect, but I have done a pretty good job of constructing a life that is what my dreams would desire.

And perhaps the most important part of a successful life are the people you surround yourself with...to learn from, support you.

Nothing reveals more about you than the people you love and those that love you. It's a reflection of your character. I like the people who are in the playing cards of my life. I have chosen a deck wisely.

I became an American, I live in America, and I live a life consistent with my dreams and desires......

[SouthOfTheBorder]

9 hours ago, augustus said:

Live below your means and save/invest.

that is not the American way - right now, Americans owe $1trillion in credit card debt at over 20% interest 

https://www.lendingtree.com/credit-cards/credit-card-debt-statistics/

[Rudynate]

23 hours ago, Charlie said:

BTW, being gay probably helped me achieve the dream, because when I was younger, I met men above my social and financial class whom I probably never would have connected with if I had been straight. I also felt no internal pressure to marry and have children, which gave me more freedom to do things that I couldn't have done if I had a family to support. It also helped that I found a partner from a similar background who had similar experience.

Yep- completely agree.  Because I was exposed to a differnt social stratum from the one I grew up in, I saw possibilities that most of my siblings didn't. 

[spidir]

2 hours ago, Vin_Marco said:

Success and "the American dream" is so subjective.....  I can only speak on my path, my journey, what I sought out to do, and my own level of satisfaction/happiness....

Every so often,I need to stand back from my life and look at it. Try to understand it, see if it's what I want it to be. I try to do it often. And I have to say mine is pretty good. I am far from perfect, but I have done a pretty good job of constructing a life that is what my dreams would desire.

And perhaps the most important part of a successful life are the people you surround yourself with...to learn from, support you.

Nothing reveals more about you than the people you love and those that love you. It's a reflection of your character. I like the people who are in the playing cards of my life. I have chosen a deck wisely.

I became an American, I live in America, and I live a life consistent with my dreams and desires......

I used to conflate achieving the "American Dream" with achieving happiness before I realized that one has nothing to do with the other. It's easy to imagine how the ability to pursue any whim may create conditions that lead to unhappiness. I take heart in knowing that happiness may be achieved with or without the American Dream.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

On 12/2/2023 at 7:58 PM, nycman said:

I love rural America

I grew up there too, and continued to go back for my parents. after they passed, no reason to return 

I had to do a drive through rural America this summer.  Guns in holsters with belts full of bullets in a chain restaurant (Ruby Tuesdays) in N Carolina. No thanks 

they seem to be very afraid of something - I’m just not sure what it is 

Edited December 3, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[BSR]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:18 PM, Km411 said:

Sure, there are many who have lifted themselves up by their bootstraps against all odds. But please consider that there are many who historically have been denied and continue to be denied all that is needed to achieve the American Dream; it simply is not available to everyone.

It's hard to discuss your point when you're so vague about who exactly has been historically denied and continues to be denied, and why.

If you're referring to blacks (my guess, but please correct me if I'm wrong), remember that millions of blacks immigrate to the US, many at great sacrifice, in pursuit of the American dream.  If the US were the racist horror that some like to portray, African and West Indian immigrants would have stopped coming decades ago.

I agree that far too many black children face near insurmountable obstacles to success but disagree with conventional wisdom (racism, white privilege, etc.).  Rather, black kids are all too often raised by single mothers and absent fathers, a combination proven to have devastating consequences for children of all races & ethnicities.  Far too many children are trapped in failed government schools.  Even if they manage to graduate high school, the "education" they received leaves them grade levels behind where they need to be for university.  Combine single motherhood with horrible schools, kids end up in a hole almost impossible to climb out of.

Edited December 4, 2023 by BSR
Typo

[BSR]

11 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

I grew up there too, and continued to go back for my parents. after they passed, no reason to return 

I had to do a drive through rural America this summer.  Guns in holsters with belts full of bullets in a chain restaurant (Ruby Tuesdays) in N Carolina. No thanks 

they seem to be very afraid of something - I’m just not sure what it is 

Whenever someone does something you don't like, you make nasty assumptions about them:  men who buy flashy cars have small penises, people who are armed are "very afraid."  Maybe try to understand those who are different from you instead of just making nasty assumptions about them.  Diversity and tolerance are a two-way street. 

An armed citizenry is the foundation of the American dream.  Unfortunately, I can't delve further into this point because of the forum's ban on politics.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, BSR said:

Maybe try to understand those who are different from you instead of just making nasty assumptions about them.

the visible gun & bullets in a restaurant made me uncomfortable.  It was obvious others were uncomfortable too.  this is not a political point.
I’d rather not be in restaurants where people are carrying weapons. And I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume if carrying a weapon openly, there is some idea of fear & need for protection.  Otherwise, what is the point ?

and yup, that guy probably had a small dick too.  I never thought about that until now - thanks for making the connection.

re: small dicks & exotic cars…..that’s backed up by research. 

the average dick is 6” or less erect. the world is full of smaller than average dicks and that’s not “nasty”. it’s like being tall or short - it is what it is. because of most men’s obsession with dick size it becomes a complicated subject.  given the core subject matter of this forum however, it’s really not surprising it comes up frequently in various contexts.

sorry if this is triggering for some people. it was not intended that way.
 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[Kevin Slater]

Moderator's note:  the gun debate stops here.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

On 12/3/2023 at 11:33 AM, Jim_n_NYC said:

I would posit that since most of the people here are able to spend money on massages and escorts, they aren't a great sample of the full spectrum of the American citizenry...I doubt people struggling to get by and/or living paycheck to paycheck are going to be having weekly massages or escort sessions.

Consider there's a large contingent of people here who don't hire anymore and simply participate in discussion.

Also, there are guys here who are routine tire-kickers and ultra discount shoppers.

[+ stevenkesslar]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:31 AM, Charlie said:

BTW, being gay probably helped me achieve the dream, because when I was younger, I met men above my social and financial class whom I probably never would have connected with if I had been straight.

So I'm going to put a long-winded and Gay, Gay, Gay spin on this.

Before I do, some comments on The American Dream in general.  It seems like the consensus from those who posted so far is that the American Dream is alive and well.  At least for people who are willing to work at it.  Hooray! 

That is certainly true in my family.  For the most part, my parents' children, including me, are all at least as well off, or in most cases better off, than my parents.  Who themselves ended their lives in the suburban middle class.  And my nieces and nephews are all mostly better off than my siblings were.  If there's a dividing line, I'd say it tends to be that the more educated someone in my family is, the more likely they are to be financially successful.  That said, there are big exceptions to the rule.  I'm the most well off of the six kids my parents had, even though two of my siblings are way better educated than me.  That must mean it pays to graduate from Escort U, I guess?  😒

Actually, it pays to own a home ........ or more.  Objectively speaking, the American Dream is alive and well, overall, it seems.  As I posted in the inflation thread, the Fed recently reported that median net worth grew 37 % from 2018 to 2022.  Median net worth actually grew more than mean net worth - meaning, as the Fed notes, that there was a slight decrease in wealth inequality.  I just read the full report, which notes that median housing net worth (home value minus mortgage debt, for the 2 in 3 Americans who own homes) went from $139,100 in 2018 to $201,000 in 2022.  That's more like a 50 % increase.  And those numbers relate very much to an average middle class family.  Not the extremes like Bill Gates or some welfare Mom who rents.  There are no secrets or surprises here.  Many people think of The American Dream as owning a home.  We have a higher home ownership rate than ever.  And middle class homeowners are doing better than ever.  Again, hooray!

One last comment on The American Dream, in general.  The Fed notes that the percentage of families who spend over 40 % of their income on debt was 6.5 % - the lowest ever recorded.  I suspect that's why a perpetually imminent recession, unlike children, has been heard of, but not seen.  Americans are, according to the Fed, less "financially vulnerable" than ever.  

So now here's the Gay spin.  I think if we are talking about Gay men, it's almost self evident that The American Dream is not only alive and well.  It is way better than ever.  Marriage discrimination is gone.  Job discrimination is gone.  If The American Dream is all about going to school, getting a good job, finding the right boy, marrying, buying a home, and raising a family, Gay men are now pretty much equal in their ability to do that as Straight men, it seems.

I was thinking about you last night, @Charlie  after watching another episode of Fellow Travelers.  Arguably the rest of this post could go in that arts thread.  But my point and my question is not about the series.  It's about how Gays have fared in the past in achieving economic and social success, or The American Dream.  I find the series both uplifting and depressing.  In the thread on the series, I posted an interview of the director.  He stresses that part of his point is that Gay men lived through the Pink Scare of the 50's and the AIDS tragedy of the 80's.  And we survived.  We not only survived.  We eventually prospered.  Again, I don't think times have ever been better in America or the world for Gay men.

So if I go by the series, the 1950's was a decidedly shitty time to come of age as a young Gay man in America.  It was not The American Dream.  It was The American Nightmare.  Forget about marrying.  You had to worry about keeping your job.  If there is a moral to the story, it is arguably that it was better to pretend you're Straight so you could get married, buy a home, get and keep a job, and build wealth.

The reason I thought of you, @Charlie, is you're one of many examples of people I met as an escort who I view as role models and trail blazers.  So it's interesting that you say that being Gay was actually a plus, not a minus.  When I was thinking about this based on Fellow Travelers, I had to do the math in my head.  Because when I think of Gay men I've met who were able to build emotionally and financially successful worlds with their male partners long before same sex marriage was legal, I think they are mostly people who would be in their 70s or 80's today.  If I use Stonewall as an inflection point, a Gay man who turned 20 the year of Stonewall would be roughly 75 today.  

So the conclusion I reached after thinking about it is the there must have been a world of difference between being Gay and 20 in the 1950's, versus the 1970's.  At least after Stonewall Gay Lib was a thing.  And based on real Gay couples I met and real stories they told, that seems to have created the possibility that two Gay men could try to achieve The American Dream, together.  At least with some degree of openness and less risk of being crushed.  If I go by my experiences as an escort and as a volunteer on the same sex marriage fight, it was Gay men who came of age in the 60's and 70's that really started to chart a path of how Gay men (and anyone LGBTQ) could achieve The American Dream.

To anyone who lived through it, is that true?  Did Gay men even have a shot at The American Dream, as openly Gay men, before Stonewall and Gay Lib?

“Loving” features around 300 photos that offer an intimate look at gay relationships between the 1850s and 1950s

Me being me, I tried to Google it.  And I've read plenty of books and articles on the subject, as well.  I think that article, which is about photographs, probably answers my question better than anything else I've read.  The years The Smithsonian picked are interesting.  Since they span from the age of photographs to the age of Gay Lib.  The conclusion it reinforces to me is that you could be Gay and have romance in the 1950's.  But only in a photo booth, or secretly, or among a few trusted friends.  Which apparently is not the secret to how you achieve The American Dream.

Anyways, end of rant.  But I've always felt grateful to Gay men like you, @Charlie, who I think were the first generation in America that really started the long haul effort for Gay men to be able to achieve the American Dream as Gay men.  It worked!  Or, to quote the two cuties from the much more cheerful and optimistic Red White & Royal Blue, "We won."

Edited December 5, 2023 by stevenkesslar

[+ Charlie]

I came out in 1960, and being gay in the '60s was different for a well-educated urban man in a professional field who didn't appear effeminate than for those who fit an opposite stereotype. I could live with another similar man in a one-bedroom apartment, have lots of anonymous sex, and take an active  part in the gay rights movement, and not constantly worry about the possibility of being beaten up or fired from my job solely because someone learned or merely suspected I was gay. Stonewall was not a sudden switch in the environment, but the culmination of a change that had been building up for at least a decade, and that finally broke into social consciousness, especially in urban America. (I suspect that if it had happened in the '50s, the New York Times would not have considered a riot by patrons at a gay bar part of "all the news that's fit to print.")

In the mid-'60s I met a somewhat effeminate middle aged gay couple who had gone to prison in rural Pennsylvania in the '50s, simply because a couple of college kids claimed the guys had cruised them in a public place. That kind of persecution wouldn't work in Philadelphia by the '60s, because gay men and women were fighting back, with the help of organizations like the ACLU, and the equal rights movement in the Black community was making everyone--gay and straight--more aware of what was at stake for everyone. The social and legal climate was changing before the laws themselves did. In 1976, I proposed to my dean that I wanted to teach a credit course in gay literature, and he immediately agreed to it; to my pleasant surprise, most of the students who signed up for it were apparently straight, and weren't afraid to have the course on their record.

[+ JEC]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:39 AM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

the American dream is dead for most Americans - children now tend to advance less than their parents, or worse they end up with a lower standard of living than their parents. 

For those immigrating to the US, the dream is very much alive in the sense they will have a better life.

and - lots of Americans leaving the country for a better life elsewhere.  

The American Dream is more alive than ever.

I think the problem is less that the dream is dead (ie there is no opportunity), rather that our culture has changed and ppl either don't appreciate all the opportunity available or aren't willing to do the work to attain it.   

I am admittedly biased - as one of 7 kids from a middle class family where dad mismanaged his money (ergo there was no money for college or helping kids to launch) we all had to figure out how to make our way in this world.  All 7 kids got college degrees (from AAS to PhD) and have successful lives.  Launching in our family was being provided an invoice for rent when you turned 18, and a handshake when you announced you were moving out (which I did at 18).  I started working at 15 mowing lawns, and then unpacking boxes at a clothing store chain.  I worked full time at a supermarket and put myself through community college (while living in poverty in an apartment with 2 other guys), when I graduated I went right to work in an entry level corporate job.  1 year later I moved to Boston, because there is much more opportunity than in small town upstate NY.  Over the years I earned my BS and MBA having my employer contribute (some, not enough!), I taught college classes part time to pay for my MBA, which I did - cash and no loans.  I made 30k by 25, 50k by 30 and 100k by 40...I'm 60 now and have earned an exec title and salary.   

The dream is not dead, there is more opportunity than ever.  We are not adequately preparing our kids to be hungry, to hustle, to mow lawns and move out, to make their own decisions, to face uncertainty and adversity, and to fail (we need to be willing and able to fail to be successful).  Kids are not living better lives than their parents because (many) parents have stopped preparing their kids to do just that.  

Many parents ARE preparing their kids to be successful, and for them....the world is their oyster.   There is more opportunity than ever.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

40 minutes ago, JEC said:

1 year later I moved to Boston, because there is much more opportunity than in small town upstate NY. 

this is the key - you were willing to move to a big city with opportunity. and you had an education

 and the people that stay almost never do better and then are resentful/bitter about “being left behind” - even though that was their choice.  They don’t see it as a choice, however. 

that’s exactly how it works & adds more texture to the answer/question 

it’s an entirely different equation for native-born Americans & immigrants, based on the circumstances & expectations. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[+ JEC]

7 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

this is the key - you were willing to move to a big city with opportunity. and you had an education

 and the people that stay almost never do better and then are resentful/bitter about “being left behind” - even though that was their choice.  They don’t see it as a choice, however. 

that’s exactly how it works & adds more texture to the answer/question 

Exactly, and both things required risk-taking, work and sacrifice: relocating to an expensive big city and getting an education.   THIS is the American Dream, look what immigrants are willing to risk and sacrifice because there truly is no (or very limited) opportunity in their country!  Many of the ppl who are "stuck" have not been to an underdeveloped country to understand the riches we have.

[+ sniper]

I think what is different today is there are relatively more opportunities for people of above average ability/starting point, and less for the bottom half of the distribution. The median is slipping, and "just be more awesome" isn't really useful advice to those people.  I have five siblings. 4 of the 5 either were extremely ill themselves, had a spouse that was ill, or a child with a significant disability. The other one is the only one besides me who I am reasonably confident will be okay in retirement. Well, the one who is already in a nursing home on Medicaid is "okay" I guess.  But her kids aren't. 

There's more luck than we like to admit in our financial outcomes. Sure I didn't have kids, but it was dumb luck and not accomplishment that my sister and not me got disabled. And that my employer's stock went up over 100x and I happened to hang on to it despited the severe imbalance in my portfolio...

Edited December 6, 2023 by sniper

[SouthOfTheBorder]

6 hours ago, sniper said:

I have five siblings. 4 of the 5 either were extremely ill themselves, had a spouse that was ill, or a child with a significant disability.

yup - if born w disability or become disabled/serious chronic illness before or during prime earning years, you're pretty much screwed and can lose everything.  

Half of bankruptcies are because of medical bills.  

[+ augustus]

13 hours ago, JEC said:

The dream is not dead, there is more opportunity than ever.  We are not adequately preparing our kids to be hungry, to hustle, to mow lawns and move out, to make their own decisions, to face uncertainty and adversity, and to fail (we need to be willing and able to fail to be successful).  Kids are not living better lives than their parents because (many) parents have stopped preparing their kids to do just that.  

You nailed it!

[BSR]

14 hours ago, JEC said:

All 7 kids got college degrees (from AAS to PhD) and have successful lives.

If all 7 of you got degrees, I have to think that you grew up in at least a decent school district despite your father's financial mismanagement. 

Before we start attacking all kids & all parents, we need to remember that millions of American kids are trapped in horrible schools and horrible school districts.  40% of Baltimore high schools had zero students testing proficient in math.  There must be some hard-working students, some good parents in those schools, but some schools are so bad that there's no hope for their students.  Even if those who graduate show initiative and decide to go to college, they will be years behind where they need to be.  Unfortunately, students who need remedial courses end up dropping out of college at a rate 74% higher than academically prepared students.  Saddled with student loans yet no degree, college dropouts are massively f***ed.

Baltimore is hardly alone.  Plenty of cities have nightmarishly bad schools whose students graduate woefully unprepared for college and life, if they graduate at all.  Maybe some will become entrepreneurs.  Maybe some will beat all the odds and manage to finish college.  But kids who don't figure a way out don't need a tongue-lashing or a motivational speech about the American dream.

I also believe that the American dream is alive and well.  But I also acknowledge that some Americans are shut out, through no fault of their own.

[Guest]

I think we also oversell college as the ticket out of poverty. Not everyone is cut out for it. The system could do better emphasizing and de-stygmatizing vocational training in the trades.

[+ JEC]

1 hour ago, Km411 said:

I think we also oversell college as the ticket out of poverty. Not everyone is cut out for it. The system could do better emphasizing and de-stygmatizing vocational training in the trades.

I 100% agree with this.  While I am a strong D, I have a problem with all the "free college' and tuition forgiveness since it devalues the trades and other legitimate skill development paths......we need tradespeople, emergency services, military and other non-college educated people to make our economy hum.  I WOULD be a fan of a national service program to support skills development.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

2 hours ago, BSR said:

Baltimore is hardly alone.  Plenty of cities have nightmarishly bad schools whose students graduate woefully unprepared for college and life, if they graduate at all.  Maybe some will become entrepreneurs.  Maybe some will beat all the odds and manage to finish college.  But kids who don't figure a way out don't need a tongue-lashing or a motivational speech about the American dream.

American public schools (not colleges/universities) are a mess in both urban cities and rural areas - routinely producing students that are far behind students in other countries - especially in math & science.  This is not new, but rather a trend for last 15-20 years.  The exception would be very wealthy areas with property taxes to support their relatively small schools & where they can exert more control.

American colleges & universities routinely outperform other countries and many foreigners arrive in the US for advanced education.  

The government doesn’t owe people jobs - that’s for private industry and they generally go where they can get a talented and educated work force….at least for the very best jobs. 
Silicon Valley developed because of its proximity to Stanford, one of the best universities in the world. Not complicated.

a tongue lashing ?  How about they don’t complain about their own life choices & take some personal responsibility ?  

Edited December 6, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[+ JEC]

6 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

yup - if born w disability or become disabled/serious chronic illness before or during prime earning years, you're pretty much screwed and can lose everything.  

Half of bankruptcies are because of medical bills.  

We need more support (including jobs, if they are able) for ppl with disabilities (a lot of discrimination here, or lack of understanding of what ppls abilities are)...and national health care (health care is a fundamental human right).   Noone should go bankrupt because of illness; and no parent should have to decide whether they should take their kid to the doctor or put food on the table.

Edited December 6, 2023 by JEC