Is the American dream dead? Have YOU achieved it?

[BSR]

11 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

a tongue lashing ?  How about they don’t complain about their own life choices & take some personal responsibility ?  

You lost me here.  I was referring to children trapped in failing schools.  Millions of kids have no choice about their education.  Because they live at a certain address (chosen by their parents), they have to attend a certain school, no matter how horrible that school is.  What bad life choices are those children guilty of?

[marylander1940]

On 12/4/2023 at 3:48 AM, BSR said:

It's hard to discuss your point when you're so vague about who exactly has been historically denied and continues to be denied, and why.

If you're referring to blacks (my guess, but please correct me if I'm wrong), remember that millions of blacks immigrate to the US, many at great sacrifice, in pursuit of the American dream.  If the US were the racist horror that some like to portray, African and West Indian immigrants would have stopped coming decades ago.

I agree that far too many black children face near insurmountable obstacles to success but disagree with conventional wisdom (racism, white privilege, etc.).  Rather, black kids are all too often raised by single mothers and absent fathers, a combination proven to have devastating consequences for children of all races & ethnicities.  Far too many children are trapped in failed government schools.  Even if they manage to graduate high school, the "education" they received leaves them grade levels behind where they need to be for university.  Combine single motherhood with horrible schools, kids end up in a hole almost impossible to climb out of.

and don't you forget about other issues also related to poverty: lack of healthcare, especially when it comes to prevention, obesity, diabetes, etc. Similar circumstances are suffered by poor whites in certain parts of the country yet somehow most folks think poverty is only a problem of the inner cities. 

[+ sniper]

There's a lot of survivorship bias going on here. I'm not saying people who make it don't work hard. I'm just saying there is considerably more luck involved in climbing out of a poor background than people generally comprehend. Almost everything needs to go right for long enough to make it to long-term security. And I think that aspect has gotten worse. When my father fell hard out of the middle class in the 70s, he and my mother were able to patch together minimum or barely above mininum wage jobs(one full and one part-time each) to keep a the mortgage paid on the house in a decent ares and food on the table. In real terms, housing costs are so mucj higher today my sister takes live-in caregiver jobs because rents are so high relative to wages. Admittedly she has other issues that impede her, but the reality is that first step is more difficult than in the past solely due to cost of living relative to wages. Nobody is building new cheap or even midlevel housing, and cheap transportation is a thing of the past too except for a couple of cities.  If you are well above average in some combination of resourcefulness and capability, or simply "really, really ridiculously goodlooking" yes it's probably a decent amount better for you than it would have been 40 years ago. Everybody else is a lot more at the mercy of external forces than they like to think.

[pubic_assistance]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:52 AM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

American public schools (not colleges/universities) are a mess in both urban cities and rural areas - routinely producing students that are far behind students in other countries

People keep blaming the schools but research has shown that poor urban children continue to fail even when money is spent on improving the school and hiring "better" teachers.

The failure in poor urban areas is about the parents not valuing education and therefore not providing the emotional support necessary to succeed.

 

[+ sniper]

42 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

People keep blaming the schools but research has shown that poor urban children continue to fail even when money is spent on improving the school and hiring "better" teachers.

The failure in poor urban areas is about the parents not valuing education and therefore not providing the emotional support necessary to succeed.

 

Statistically the single largest variable in children's outcome is parental income, not anything they do. Probably because if there's a stable roof over your head and ample food on the table you're in much better shape to absorb and retain information, and that makes more of a difference than whether your kindergarten teacher had masters degree or not.  Maybe Universal Basic Income is a better use of funds than making the school buildings fancier.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

People keep blaming the schools but research has shown that poor urban children continue to fail even when money is spent on improving the school and hiring "better" teachers.

The failure in poor urban areas is about the parents not valuing education and therefore not providing the emotional support necessary to succeed.

 

It's a complicated topic & there may be urban/rural & localized differences as to why American students are falling behind.  
But overall, that is the trend nationwide.  Some states are better than others tho.

Blame it on schools, families, support, community, state, social media, phones, etc or some combination - it matters I guess, but the outcome is the same: American students are falling behind other rich developed country students.

 

Sent from my iPhone

Edited December 11, 2023 by Kevin Slater

[marylander1940]

9 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

People keep blaming the schools but research has shown that poor urban children continue to fail even when money is spent on improving the school and hiring "better" teachers.

The failure in poor urban areas is about the parents not valuing education and therefore not providing the emotional support necessary to succeed.

 

Don't you forget about forget about generational poverty in some rural areas of the country and in some of the whitest counties in the nation. 

I wonder why some folks keep thinking poverty as an inner city problem...

Edited December 11, 2023 by marylander1940

[marylander1940]

9 hours ago, sniper said:

Statistically the single largest variable in children's outcome is parental income, not anything they do. Probably because if there's a stable roof over your head and ample food on the table you're in much better shape to absorb and retain information, and that makes more of a difference than whether your kindergarten teacher had masters degree or not.  Maybe Universal Basic Income is a better use of funds than making the school buildings fancier.

With a universal basic income some folks wouldn't even try to make the effort to succeed in life. 

May I remind yinz people die trying to make it into our country? If someone here thinks life is tough and unfair, he should try living in another country. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by marylander1940
misspelling

[+ sniper]

46 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

With a universal basic income some folks wouldn't even try to make the effort of succeeding in life. 

May I remind yinz people die trying to make it into our country? if someone here thinks life is tough and unfair he should try living in another country. 

I don't really get your agreeing with my first post then getting worked up by my second. I don't think the people you are worried about were likely to be all that successful in the sink or swim option anyway. There are always going to be people who work the system whether it's govt payments or large corporations reluctance to fire people. 

[marylander1940]

24 minutes ago, sniper said:

I don't really get your agreeing with my first post then getting worked up by my second. I don't think the people you are worried about were likely to be all that successful in the sink or swim option anyway. There are always going to be people who work the system whether it's govt payments or large corporations reluctance to fire people. 

"Getting worked up" I just disagree with the idea of a Universal Basic Income. 

Sink or swim? I've never said that. To be honest with you I'm more worried about folks who don't see how lucky they're to be born here and need immigrants to remind them about it. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

1 hour ago, marylander1940 said:

Don't you forget about forget about generational poverty in some rural areas of the country and in some of the whitest counties in the nation. 

I wonder why some folks keep thinking poverty as an inner city problem...

Could it be that many poor in rural areas are very content with their life and local culture of church, football, and country music; whereas many poor in urban and suburban settings are cut off from their community socially and/or carry a grudge against their better-off neighbors?

The American Dream can be fulfilled living in a one room house with family and friends that you love and doing what you love.

[BSR]

2 hours ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Could it be that many poor in rural areas are very content with their life and local culture of church, football, and country music; whereas many poor in urban and suburban settings are cut off from their community socially and/or carry a grudge against their better-off neighbors?

The American Dream can be fulfilled living in a one room house with family and friends that you love and doing what you love.

In 2019, 74% of students at Stuyvesant (NYC's top selective high school) were Asian, 53% were from low-income families.  Maybe Stuyvesant parents won't achieve the American dream, but their kids will, even if they're growing up poor.

Sure, it sucks to be low-income, even more so in a relentlessly expensive city like New York.  But working a menial, low-paying job & living in a tiny sh*thole can be bearable if you see that your kids have a future.

I couldn't find a statistic on how many Stuyvesant students grow up in 2-parent households.  My guess is that it's far higher than the national & NYC averages simply because Asian-Americans have by far the lowest rate of out-of-wedlock births.

If you grow up in a strong, stable household and have access to decent schools, the American dream is yours for the taking.  Unfortunately, millions of kids nowadays grow up without either/or.

[marylander1940]

4 hours ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Could it be that many poor in rural areas are very content with their life and local culture of church, football, and country music; whereas many poor in urban and suburban settings are cut off from their community socially and/or carry a grudge against their better-off neighbors?

The American Dream can be fulfilled living in a one room house with family and friends that you love and doing what you love.

Great point!

The American dream could be different also according to our expectations and perceptions.