Is the American dream dead? Have YOU achieved it?

[Kevin Slater]

This forum is for discussing economic issues.  Posts detailing political issues (in the US and elsewhere) have been deleted. And gents, avoid the snark. 

[jeezifonly]

Perhaps we might reconsider consider the weight of the word "Dream" in the phrase.

Lore, slogans and fairy tales tell our dreams can come true.  

If dreams CAN come true, doesn't it also mean that they might not? And might some external forces find that my dream gets in the way of theirs?

[Pepper Young]

I achieved the American Dream by inheriting it from my parents. 

[MikeBiDude]

The American dream now costs $5 million. Here's a breakdown.

WWW.USATODAY.COM

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Inflation has darkened the American dream, Investopedia reports: Those lofty aspirations will now cost $5 million over a lifetime.

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

7 hours ago, MikeBiDude said:

The American dream now costs $5 million. Here's a breakdown.

WWW.USATODAY.COM

---

Inflation has darkened the American dream, Investopedia reports: Those lofty aspirations will now cost $5 million over a lifetime.

 

It's an interesting article, but it does not factor in the time value of money.  It is very possible to earn only $2 Million in one's lifetime but spend $5 Million, because over half of the amount spent SHOULD be in the later years of life, decades after retirement and paid from investments not salary.  The trick:  out of $2M earned in one's 20s/30s/40s, be sure to invest 15% in a Roth account in aggressive stocks.  Then by one's 50s/60s/70s/80s, a $5M life is within reach.

Also, it cites the median income for 1 person with a bachelor degree, but the desired expenses are for a couple (wedding, 2 children, and a median house).  I laugh when I hear articles that state a single person can't afford a 3 bedroom house or apartment, because a single person only needs a studio.  A median dual income family has more than enough lifetime income to pay for all items in the article.

On a personal note,  the only vacations I went on in my 20s were camping outdoors.  It was inexpensive and fun to do while I was young.  Now that I can afford it, I have the money invested to pay for the nicer hotels when I travel now and in the future.  And instead of pets, I prefer to spend on Escorts.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

The American dream existed for about 30-40 years, post-WWII, until the late 80s. Some people, like myself, were able to access a relatively inexpensive public college degree and took advantage of the booming economy to start our careers. However, for millennials and Gen Z, there is virtually no opportunity to move up in class. Everyone I know in their 30s who didn't come from an affluent family that covered their college costs is drowning in debt. They cannot buy real estate, get married, start a family, etc. And if they can make those things happen, they're operating on extremely tight margins.

I grew up in a single-parent family, on welfare from age 5 to high school, at which point my mother made enough money. I went to a commuter college, which cost about $800 per semester (which was covered by government support), and I worked 20 hours a week for spending money. My brother got a city union job, where he does very well. But we both busted our asses to get here and we're solidly middle class. 

Most of the programs and assistance that allowed my mother to get through college, help me go to college, and go from poverty to the middle class have been decimated. So now to get assistance, people have to work. Most adult SNAP recipients work for multinational companies that don't pay a living wage, and so we get to pay for their food assistance and Medicaid. That's why we have so many poor people and are about to have our first trillionaire. 

So, yeah, except for a few very hard working and also lucky people, the dream is dead. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

2 hours ago, KensingtonHomo said:

Everyone I know in their 30s who didn't come from an affluent family that covered their college costs is drowning in debt.

Allow me to introduce myself, and my friends my age, who graduated State college and paid as we went with hourly internships and waiting tables.  I only wish I had been lucky enough to know about escorting in my 20s as a way to make money then as well!

2 hours ago, KensingtonHomo said:

But we both busted our asses to get here and we're solidly middle class.

 

...except for a few very hard working and also lucky people, the dream is dead. 

Congratulations 🎉 on having achieved your American Dream!

I thought that was the American Dream... You had to be hard working

I certainly have the attitude of being lucky to be able to study hard and get into a State college, and lucky that I had great mentors in my teens and 20s.  A pessimist or SJW might find a few unlucky things about me: broken home, minority racial background, minority sexual orientation, uneducated parents, religious minority, unconventional height/weight, etc.   But call me Pollyanna or just an optimist, but I am very lucky my grandparents immigrated to America.  Each generation of my family has achieved the American Dream ... But it has always been a different Dream for each of us.

My grandparents left socialism to come to America.  That was enough for them.  They didn't have high school education, own more than one car, or live in a fancy house.  (One might call their house a "shack" by today's standards)  But they were happy they achieved the Dream.

The American Dream doesn't have to mean middle class or upper class income.  Many are grateful to raise happy families in the Lower class and have the personal Liberty to be able to do it on their own, homeschool, and achieve the Dream that looks different than those of us who hire Men regularly.

Edited yesterday at 06:34 PM by Vegas_Millennial

[BSR]

51 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Allow me to introduce myself, and my friends my age, who graduated State college and paid as we went with hourly internships and waiting tables.  I only wish I had been lucky enough to know about escorting in my 20s as a way to make money then as well!

Congratulations 🎉 on having achieved your American Dream!

I thought that was the American Dream... You had to be hard working

I certainly have the attitude of being lucky to be able to study hard and get into a State college, and lucky that I had great mentors in my teens and 20s.  A pessimist or SJW might find a few unlucky things about me: broken home, minority racial background, minority sexual orientation, uneducated parents, religious minority, unconventional height/weight, etc.   But call me Pollyanna or just an optimist, but I am very lucky my grandparents immigrated to America.  Each generation of my family has achieved the American Dream ... But it has always been a different Dream for each of us.

My grandparents left socialism to come to America.  That was enough for them.  They didn't have high school education, own more than one car, or live in a fancy house.  (One might call their house a "shack" by today's standards)  But they were happy they achieved the Dream.

The American Dream doesn't have to mean middle class or upper class income.  Many are grateful to raise happy families in the Lower class and have the personal Liberty to be able to do it on their own, homeschool, and achieve the Dream that looks different than those of us who hire Men regularly.

To be fair, the cost of a 4-year public university degree has skyrocketed in the past few decades.  An enterprising young American might be able to pay their way by means of OnlyFans or escorting, but pouring lattes or parking cars?  No way.  For the most part, when today’s college grads complain about being crushed by debt, it ain’t their fault.

Also, the median home price to median income ratio is completely out of whack in most American cities.  While cities like Detroit and Cleveland still offer affordable housing, not everyone wants to or can live in such cities.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that while hard work and financial discipline are important today as they ever were, factors outside of the individual’s control are putting the American dream further and further out of reach.

Edited yesterday at 07:13 PM by BSR
Typo

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

15 minutes ago, BSR said:

the median home price...

You can't compare median home price to median income over decades... It's apples to oranges.  Because today's median homes are larger, with garages, central air conditioning, granite counter tops, wired for Internet, etc.  But no one wants to live in the homes of last generations unless they are upgraded with modern conveniences... Which costs money.

The Dream is getting more expensive because the Dream is changing.  Dreamers today aren't happy with a 3 bedroom/1 bath house in the suburbs with Formica, linoleum, wall to wall carpeting, and a carport for a single car.  Dreamers now want multiple bathrooms with rainfall showers, open kitchens with granite countertops, garages for their multiple cars, and close to urban amenities.

If the new Dream seams harder to obtain, its partly because the people doing the dreaming are not satisfied with the  material objects of the old Dream.

[marylander1940]

20 minutes ago, BSR said:

To be fair, the cost of a 4-year public university degree has skyrocketed in the past few decades.  An enterprising young American might be able to pay their way by means of OnlyFans or escorting, but pouring lattes or parking cars?  No way.  For the most part, when today’s college grads complain about being crushed by debt, it ain’t their fault.

Also, the median home price to median income ratio is completely out of whack in most American cities.  While cities like Detroit and Cleveland still offer affordable housing, not everyone wants to or can live I such cities.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that while hard work and financial discipline are important today as they ever were, factors outside of the individual’s control are putting the American dream further and further out of reach.

I'm amazed about this compassionate post. 

I agree 100%

[+ KensingtonHomo]

4 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Allow me to introduce myself, and my friends my age, who graduated State college and paid as we went with hourly internships and waiting tables.  I only wish I had been lucky enough to know about escorting as a way to make money then as well!

The American dream isn't paying for state college; it's going to an excellent university (which most people have to take out debt to do). And these folks all worked while attending. They were pushed by their advisors to get into the BEST school. And this doesn't account for my younger cousins in the early 20s now who skipped college because they couldn't even afford state school without going into debt. It now costs $22,000 to attend a state school in New York. My entire bachelors degree cost under $10,000, which is about $23,000 in today's dollars. So it costs four times as much now as it did when I went to school. And it's all because of tax cuts for rich people leading to massive disinvestment. 

12 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

A pessimist or SJW might find a few unlucky things about me: broken home, minority racial background, minority sexual orientation, uneducated parents, religious minority, unconventional height/weight, etc.   But call me Pollyanna or just an optimist, but I am very lucky my grandparents immigrated to America.  Each generation of my family has achieved the American Dream ... But it has always been a different Dream for each of us.   My grandparents left socialism to come to America.  That was enough for them.  They didn't have high school education, own more than one car, or live in a fancy house.  (One might call their house a "shack" by today's standards)  But they were happy they achieved the Dream.

The American Dream is the notion that each generation will do better than their parents. If college is required for a decent job, and it leads to a lifetime of debt, and housing costs 400% more, and groceries are up 20% and many jobs don't have pensions or even health insurance, then no, they're not achieving the American dream. You and I did make it, but we were lucky. We benefited from going to college when it was less expensive. In-state public college tuition has increased 100% since 1995. And salaries have not kept pace with that increase.

Now we have giant, multinational corporations that get huge tax breaks and incentives, and mass-firing white collar workers because they think AI can do their jobs. I don't know what you do for a living but what I do can't be replaced by AI.  

 

 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

21 minutes ago, BSR said:

While cities like Detroit and Cleveland still offer affordable housing, not everyone wants to or can live I such cities.

And yet Detroit was the model of the American Dream post World War II,  supporting my point that the Old Dream is still obtainable.  But people don't want the Old Dream.  They want the New Dream of bigger homes, more vacations, more amenities, but are not willing to live or work in a location that allows them to live comfortably and without debt.

Fortunately, both Dreams are alive and well.  The Old Dream is available if one chooses to live in an affordable area and manages his expectations and invest to retire one day.  The New Dream is available if one wants to live where it's expensive and obtain immediate gratification when he's young, goes into debt, and is willing and able to work until he dies.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

3 minutes ago, KensingtonHomo said:

The American dream isn't paying for state college; it's going to an excellent university..

Supporting my point that the American Dream has changed.  Most of my friends are happy to be the first member of their family to graduate from any college.... But there are those out there who's New Dream is graduating from Ivy League as a necessity. 

The Old American Dream is still achievable.  But more and more people dreaming want a higher, more expensive Dream.

Edited yesterday at 07:13 PM by Vegas_Millennial

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

4 minutes ago, KensingtonHomo said:

The American Dream is the notion that each generation will do better than their parents.

Ahh...I thought the American Dream was that one wasn't beholdant to the class of one's parents, not necessarily that one must do better.

In the last 30 years, the middle class has shrunk because most of us have moved to to Upper Class, not down to Lower Class.  Lower Class size has stayed the same, but the size of the Upper Class has grown. 

If one MUST move up from Upper Class to the top 1%, then I see your point that it is nearly impossible. 

But if my understanding of the Dream that a child of the Upper Class still has a chance to end up in Lower, Middle, or Upper Class, then that is still alive.  Even if it means that some children of the Upper Class will move down, and some children of the Lower or Middle Class will move to the Upper Class in their life.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

1 minute ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

And yet Detroit was the model of the American Dream post World War II,  supporting my point that the Old Dream is still obtainable.  But people don't want the Old Dream.  They want the New Dream of bigger homes, more vacations, more amenities, but are not willing to live or work in a location that allows them to live comfortably and without debt.

Fortunately, both Dreams are alive and well.  The Old Dream is available if one chooses to live in an affordable area and manages his expectations and invest to retire one day.  The New Dream is available if one wants to live where it's expensive and obtain immediate gratification when he's young, goes into debt, and is willing and able to work until he dies.

No. The Dream is, as you put it above, doing better each successive generation. As @BSR pointed out, that's simply not possible anymore. 

I do agree that some people want huge houses with crazy amenities, but that's also what's being built. I have no idea what a family of four needs five bedrooms and four baths. I don't want to clean that big a house. I'm happy in our two-bedroom apartment in a nice part of NYC. But my husband's family had a five bedroom, three bathroom house in Durham on a single doctor's income. His mother never worked. They had a part-time housekeeper. His father went to medical school on the GI bill and had no debt. Most doctors now graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. And this doesn't just screw the doctors; it screws us as no one wants to be a geriatrician or a pediatrician because they don't make a lot of money. 

[+ KensingtonHomo]

3 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

But if my understanding of the Dream that a child of the Upper Class still has a chance to end up in Lower, Middle, or Upper Class, then that is still alive.  Even if it means that some children of the Upper Class will move down, and some children of the Lower or Middle Class will move to the Upper Class in their life.

If this is your definition, then it is mostly dead. Social mobility has cratered since the 1980s. 

 

[NipLuvr212]

30 minutes ago, KensingtonHomo said:

If this is your definition, then it is mostly dead. Social mobility has cratered since the 1980s. 

 

agreed - and it was never anything other than an "honorary" status which could be revoked much much more quickly than it could be achieved.

[Lotus-eater]

1 hour ago, KensingtonHomo said:

If this is your definition, then it is mostly dead. Social mobility has cratered since the 1980s. 

Assumed facts not in evidence.

People tend to conflate relative mobility and absolute mobility. Relative mobility is a zero-sum game, if you move from the first quintile to the second, that means someone else has dropped downward. Absolute mobility, by contrast, measures how your income compares with your parent’s income. E.g., assume your parents make $20,000 a year and you are in the bottom quintile. If you stay in the bottom quintile, but make $25,000 a year, you’ve experienced absolute mobility but no relative mobility.

The largest decline in absolute mobility occurred between 1940 and 1964, so rather than blaming Reagan, you should be blaming Ike-JFK-LBJ: "On average, 92% of children born in 1940 grew up to earn more than their parents. In contrast, only 50% of children born in 1984 grew up to earn more than their parents. The downward trend in absolute mobility was especially sharp between the 1940 and 1964 cohorts. The decline paused for children born in the late 1960s and early 1970s, whose incomes at age 30 were measured in the midst of the economic boom of the late 1990s [i.e. early GenXers did relatively well]."

 As for the supposed decline in relative mobility, even that isn't clear: "I show that accounting for race and measurement error can double estimates of intergenerational persistence. Updated estimates imply that there is greater equality of opportunity today than in the past."

Edited 21 hours ago by Lotus-eater

[jeezifonly]

The American Dream™️was a fictional construct invented by those with a lot of money to add a sheen of ordinariness to greed, and for motivating workers to be productive and compliant in exchange for future security. In general, most people who have (had) access to education and apply (applied) themselves to maximize its usefulness, wound up doing a little better than their parents, financially. It's a natural result of 'growth' in a capitalist system. It was, anyway, until the 80's when the government was persuaded to reduce the burden of America's operating budget only on those with the most money.

The wealth gap that has grown since then has nullified all the old formulas of calculating lower and middle class financial success. For 95% of Americans now, where you began is where you finish. Born poor, die poor. Born rich, die richer.