Who Will Own and Run The Forum?

[+ Lucky]

We have @RadioRob on the technical, @Coolwave35 on the financial, and @Cooper on the administrative. Does this need shoring up? Many are willing to donate, but a clear plan would help. I am not sure that @RadioRob wants a long term role.

[RadioRob]

The tech side won’t be too hard to maintain long term. I don’t mind helping on that front as it’s not a lot of effort required once things are stable. I think the bigger thing is thinking through succession planning. How do you document everything, and have details on what tools are used, where those tools are, passwords etc and have it stored in a way that does not compromise security?

 

For example I could put all of the info in a safety deposit box, and list a few folks as authorized to access it. It could be stored in an escrow account. I could put the details in the server itself. It could just be given to a few trusted people with the hope they never abuse the contents of that file. There are MANY ways of doing this, but what is the BEST way is what still needs to be determined. (Again, it would be 100 percent the keys to the kingdom.)

 

My goal is to think through how to make the community as self-sustaining from a physical access process as possible, but also not opening the community to unnecessary risk.

[+ stevenkesslar]

There's also been a call for a steering committee to make recommendation about the objective(s) of this community going forward, and whether it should advocate for change that would improve the lives, livelihood, legal standing and safety of sex workers. That will take people as well. And finally, if a legal entity is created to own the sites and represent the community, people would be needed for that as well.

 

I for one think a steering committee, or what @RyanDean called an exploratory committee, make tremendous sense. My own experience is this type of thing is driven by a CEO, an Executive Director, or a Board Chair. I'll give a few specific real world examples I know of. A former CEO I know reconstituted the board of the company he ran so it would include higher profile people like former US Senators. He drove that process, including figuring out who the right people might be. With non-profits I've worked with it's usually the Executive Director or Board Chair that would drive that process, including simply figuring out new board members to replace old ones.

 

The half-assed thing I attempted years ago was based on the idea that Bill might be persuaded to do such a thing, and have some kind of informal steering or fundraising committee or whatever he chose to call it around to help in a situation like this. I bring this up because in a situation like this Bill would be the best one to figure out or bless a small planning group. But he is no longer in a position to do so. In my experience I've never known a board or steering committee to appoint itself.

 

This is where I'm thinking you might play a role, @Orin. You've been incredibly clear that you're playing a transitional role and you're nor interested in any permanent leadership role in this community. Which is presumably what a steering committee would be figuring out and making recommendations on. Assuming there are people of various skills and interests interested in spending some time being part of a small steering group, @Orin is an objective outsider who might play a role, along with @RadioRob and @Coolwave35, in saying, "Yes, this sounds like the right group of people to figure out how to put a structure around this." Things like LLCs and corporations and non-profits have been mentioned as options, and I'm pretty sure we could come up with a small group of smart people to figure such things out. It would make sense to me that like a CEO or ED or Bill, you and @RadioRob and @Coolwave35 would essentially "bless" such a small group to go out and do some homework and come back with some recommendations.

 

Speaking for myself what I've been saying to a few people privately is I'm happy to be part of a steering effort, or to not be. There's a specific escort, not me, who I think should be part of it because I think he has the best thinking about what to do about the review site. @sam.fitzpatrick has noted he sees several gaps, which I think is correct. One of them is that everybody, including me, is elated this site still exists. But we have no plan for the review site. It's not even clear whether a steering committee would focus on that. But since people like @Orin and @RadioRob are trying to save it, we probably should have a plan.

 

Another factor is that at some point if we have an LLC or corporation or non-profit, some individuals have to put their real name on it. So I think I'm in a weird situation because I'm probably the opposite of most people, certainly most clients. I'm probably not as good to be on a steering committee if a major goal is to form an LLC, because I have never done that. I have helped form non-profits. Meanwhile, I'm happy to be part of a group using their real names as part of some LLC or non-profit, which I'm guessing many other people here would not be in a position to do. So that needs to be thought through. The easy default is to have one owner, which I guess could be @Coolwave35 or @RadioRob. I think @RadioRob has already said he does not want to own the equipment or site. And I think he said he wants them in a stand-alone island accessible to others, which makes great sense. My own view is that having one individual owner is a bad idea for all sorts of reasons. Including that it makes him a target if anybody ever does get the bright idea of shutting down this website. Or the review website for that matter.

 

On the political stuff, decriminalization/escort and client safety, my main immediate goal is to plant a flag that I think this should be part of our long term vision. I'm assuming if it were put to a vote most escorts and those who hire them would say decriminalization is a good idea. I think before you get to changing policy or law it is best to start with information and education. So, for example, Congress actually passed the first bill ever to study the health and safety of sex workers. There's a few things I am guessing. First, there was a lot of pushback from FOSTA/SESTA. Second, often when you introduce a bill like that it's to lay the groundwork for legislative changes. So this is all potentially good news.

 

To further paint the picture of where we might consider going, here's something stated in a private message to me: "I don't see HRC being receptive to that but I do see the ACLU being willing to do so." I responded that I would have said the same thing five years ago. HRC was radio silent on Rentboy. I'll keep posting this coalition report that says decriminalization now has narrow majority support. Happily, HRC is in fact part of a national decriminalization coalition. Meanwhile, they are pushing their own escort health and safety legislation in CA. As I said in another post the chief legislative sponsor is somebody I was a precinct captain for when he first ran for Harvey Milk's seat. If HRC and guys like him are now in the middle of this, promoting it, decriminalization has moved from fringe to center. Which is very good news for us. To put it bluntly, we'd be fools not to reach out to these people. And probably be part of this coalition. I think it helps protect both websites. It's very hard to attack and shut down websites that promote ideas you don't agree with. Including ideas prominent LGBTQ groups like HRC are publicly advocating for.

 

This is NOT front burner. But I do think it involves how we restructure as a community. One idea I've been floating is I think we should consider adding a Decriminalization/Escort And Client Health And Safety forum to provide information and discuss what is happening. An escort buddy texted me this story a few days ago: "Manhattan To Stop Prosecuting Prostitution, Part Of Nationwide Shift." Sucks, huh? We should be talking about, if not promoting, ideas like that here. Having a dedicated forum to do it in might help.

 

There was one pool party in particular right after FOSTA/SESTA where everybody was glum and felt this site may be gone in a year. I think the climate has changed, and we now have a great opportunity to get ahead of the curve. This isn't as urgent as forming an LLC or a non-profit, if we go that route. But escorting health and safety issues, including decriminalization, could be one reason we are forming an LLC or a non-profit. I think we'd benefit from a big picture and vision, other than can we log in to this website tomorrow?

 

I'll pass along one part of a private conversation that goes to all this consideration about the big picture some steering committee could be looking at. This individual said he thinks Rentboy fucked up with their DHS visa application. I agree. That was probably a fatal error. He took it further and said Jeffrey was basically to blame for his own problems. I don't see it that way. On balance, I think Jeffrey was way more right than wrong. Rentboy existed about as long as this website. Losing Rentboy was a real loss. Losing the review site would be a real loss, too. But I think Jeffrey - not unlike Bill - was isolated. In Jeffrey's case, we know he was ultimately relatively easy to target and take down.

 

This site and the review site, unlike Rentboy, doesn't profit from escort advertising. But either could be portrayed as "escort websites." In my mind that plays to whether we want to be for-profit or non-profit. I completely see why people experienced on the corporate side might lean to an LLC. If that's the recommendation, I'm for it. If you need a name, put mine on it, as long as it's an informed and smart group. But a non-profit might be better, for the reasons I just said. How do you go after a non-profit committed to escort health and safety, including safety from arrest? Again, all this needs to be thought through before any application for an LLC or non-profit or anything is submitted. Even if we have a private owner, that should be thought through, too.

 

On a more technical level, which is what ignorant whores like me suck at, somebody needs to figure out where this "island" @RadioRob eventually wants to local the servers on is. And is that the server for this site, or the review website, or both? Inquiring minds want to know. And I think we want a steering committee to provide some answers.

[+ Orin]

Thanks for weighing in, @stevenkesslar. There's a lot to discuss.

 

When considering the possibility of creating a non-profit, it matters which kind it is. The first kind that comes to mind, 501©(3) organizations, are prohibited from engaging in any political campaign intervention activities. If this community intends to advocate for the rights and safety of sex workers, it could get drawn into a political context, and that could be dicey. On the other hand, 501©(6) organizations, which is the kind that Deb and Andy, another member of our crew, have been talking up, may engage in political campaign intervention activities so long as such activities do not represent their primary activity. That description matches what you've laid out above. What other choices are there, and what are their capabilities and restrictions?

 

I had been thinking that I should be hands-off regarding the decisions reached here, but the role you've suggested, to help validate the group of people who would be making those recommendations, sounds reasonable to me. My thoughts on that are these: this committee ought to include a representative of each type of stakeholder. So please enumerate those roles, and we can match people to the roles.

 

It's funny. This situation reminds me of a series of short stories that I wrote several years ago for my blog. It started off with a court case about the first corporation to be tried for murder after they were granted full personhood by the Supreme Court. As the cycle played out, the court-appointed person who took over the board of directors mandated that the staff become unionized, and that a representative of that union be added to the board, because they were key stakeholders in the punishment meted out to the company. A side-effect of that involvement was that the employees became a community, and that community took up the cause of activating customers in the process of controlling corporations.

[+ MysticMenace]

Is anyone here keeping track of the offers of help? (That's not me, as I'm here to intercede between this community and the group working on closing out Bill's affairs and preserving the sites so they can be handed off to the community, NV court willing.)

 

UPDATE - REPLY TO THIS POST IF YOU WOULD LIKE YOUR NAME ADDED TO OR REMOVED FROM THE TABLE BELOW

 

Created a table on my original post to log those who volunteered and those who are nominated. Let's take nominations or volunteers until Friday, 05/21/2021. I will send a private message to the list of individuals who signed up to be on the steering committee to schedule a zoom call to align on tasks that need to be established, including but not limited to, transition plan with Orin and Team Washington, vision, draft steering committee charter, duties and responsibilities, implementation roadmap.

Edited April 29, 2021 by JoeMendoza

[+ stevenkesslar]

I had been thinking that I should be hands-off regarding the decisions reached here, but the role you've suggested, to help validate the group of people who would be making those recommendations, sounds reasonable to me. My thoughts on that are these: this committee ought to include a representative of each type of stakeholder. So please enumerate those roles, and we can match people to the roles.

 

My main thought about that is simply it should be escorts and the people who hire them. You could break it down further than that, but for our purposes if there is to be a small steering committee I don't think it's necessary. If it's reflective of who actually posts here it's like 2 to 1 clients to escorts. So if you want me to suggest a number I'd say 6 people, of whom 2 are escorts and 4 are people who hire them. And those 6 people should be working with @RadioRob and @Coolwave35 and Team Washington to make sure what they are doing fits with that the people who are taking a leadership on technology and fundinf have in mind.

 

I'll keep repeating this just so that I don't create any misunderstandings. The stuff I'm most interested in at this point are things like decriminalization. But that's just me. The main reasons people come here are to talk about escorts in the deli, post pictures, chat about anything. The thing I'm very sensitive to is that while lots of people here would agree with decriminalization, they don't want to be personally associated with it. So this website can be lots of different things for lots of different people.

 

A (501)©(3) would be no problem for the kind of political activity I'm talking about: promoting the health and safety of escorts and those who hire them, including by decriminalizing. The main thing a 501©(3) can't do is election activity. Here's a helpful summary:

 

The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501©(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations

 

So as a simple example as a 501©(3) we could promote the idea of decriminalization and go meet with Sen. Weiner if he is pushing a bill to decriminalize. Or go meet with members of this decriminalization coalition, or join it. We can't actively work to elect Sen. Weiner. If there was a decriminalization bill on the ballot we could not work for that. Although that's not black and white because "voter education" would be okay. All of this is way beyond what most clients would do. But there are probably a bunch of escorts who would do it.

 

An example of where I could have gotten in trouble was when I was state organizing director of a non-profit and the organization took money from unions relating to a ballot initiative on taxes. If it's something on the ballot, that's when you are at the line. We defined what we did as "voter education" about taxes, as opposed to taking a specific position for or against the initiative.

 

There's an advantage of being a 501©(3). With several of the organizations I worked for there were always candidates seeking endorsements. Being non-profit gave us a great excuse to say, "Sorry. Can't do that." But we could and did work with them on getting legislation passed.

 

What I'm suggesting, at least in the short term, doesn't go within a mile of any of this. As part of a sentence, it's "information and education about the health and safety of escorting, including decriminalization." It seems clear that's the level that that big decriminalization coalition including HRC and the ACLU that has formed is at now: education, and basically promoting the idea. My hunch is they would welcome connecting with people and a website actually involved in the thing they are trying to protect. Maybe they are involved in some local or state initiatives, like the escort safety law I posted on in California. But any or all of that would be fine within the context of a 501©(3).

 

That said, this is all stuff a steering committee should be batting around, I think. I'm sure there are merits to every option discussed so far, like ©6 or an LLC or a corporation. I think any form of community ownership would be a good thing compared to the position Bill was in.

 

I'm curious if anyone knew Hooboy well enough to know his risk calculus on these issues? I never met him. But from a distance he seemed very willing to put his ass on the line. There were all kinds of very specific reviews written about me when he was in charge. At least from the people who've written reviews I know, people would love it if we could move back in that direction. It would be interesting if anybody who knew Hooboy could speak to Hooboy's perception of his own risk, particularly on the review website, and how he mitigated against it. Or didn't.

Edited April 29, 2021 by stevenkesslar

[+ José Soplanucas]

Am I missing something? I have not seen any input from @Cooper .

[Cooper]

Am I missing something? I have not seen any input from @Cooper .

 

Thanks @latbear4blk for asking. Right now I’m very active in the Moderator’s Forum. I’m reviewing and explaining the Message Center Rules and going over the responsibilities of Administrators and Moderators. I’m also monitoring all Forums, acting on all reports, and taking action on the Approval Queue. If you need to contact me just send a PM.

[+ Orin]

Thanks @RadioRob and @Coolwave35 - awesome for you both to step in to be responsible for server maintenance and finances, respectively.

 

@Orin, @Cooper - with the 2 roles filled by @RadioRob and @Coolwave35 - does this answer the above question? or are we still missing certain major responsibilities that need to be assigned?

 

Once upon a time, while a contractor on a project for the US Air Force, I created something that no direct hire was knowledgeable about. I actually had to explain to management that there would be nobody to take over if they were to terminate my contract or I was hit by a bus. In the avionics world, any single point of failure is a red flag situation. That applies not just to hardware, but to personnel as well. It also applies here.

 

I think it would be prudent to make sure that there is at least one backup or alternate to cover each role. Having a single point of failure in any aspect of an organization, such as only one person being able to handle hosting or financial issues, leaves things in a precarious position if that one person is hit by a falling jet engine, or becomes unavailable for some other reason.

[+ Orin]

If it's reflective of who actually posts here it's like 2 to 1 clients to escorts. So if you want me to suggest a number I'd say 6 people, of whom 2 are escorts and 4 are people who hire them.

 

I have no idea whether this is important, but should the people in that group be distributed geographically as well? Would it be a good or a bad thing if they were all from the US?

[+ WilliamM]

I have no idea whether this is important, but should the people in that group be distributed geographically as well? Would it be a good or a bad thing if they were all from the US?

That would rule out the owner of gay guides who doesn't live in the United States

[Islesguy]

My main thought about that is simply it should be escorts and the people who hire them. You could break it down further than that, but for our purposes if there is to be a small steering committee I don't think it's necessary. If it's reflective of who actually posts here it's like 2 to 1 clients to escorts. So if you want me to suggest a number I'd say 6 people, of whom 2 are escorts and 4 are people who hire them. And those 6 people should be working with @RadioRob and @Coolwave35 and Team Washington to make sure what they are doing fits with that the people who are taking a leadership on technology and fundinf have in mind.

 

I'll keep repeating this just so that I don't create any misunderstandings. The stuff I'm most interested in at this point are things like decriminalization. But that's just me. The main reasons people come here are to talk about escorts in the deli, post pictures, chat about anything. The thing I'm very sensitive to is that while lots of people here would agree with decriminalization, they don't want to be personally associated with it. So this website can be lots of different things for lots of different people.

 

A (501)©(3) would be no problem for the kind of political activity I'm talking about: promoting the health and safety of escorts and those who hire them, including by decriminalizing. The main thing a 501©(3) can't do is election activity. Here's a helpful summary:

 

The Restriction of Political Campaign Intervention by Section 501©(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations

 

So as a simple example as a 501©(3) we could promote the idea of decriminalization and go meet with Sen. Weiner if he is pushing a bill to decriminalize. Or go meet with members of this decriminalization coalition, or join it. We can't actively work to elect Sen. Weiner. If there was a decriminalization bill on the ballot we could not work for that. Although that's not black and white because "voter education" would be okay. All of this is way beyond what most clients would do. But there are probably a bunch of escorts who would do it.

 

An example of where I could have gotten in trouble was when I was state organizing director of a non-profit and the organization took money from unions relating to a ballot initiative on taxes. If it's something on the ballot, that's when you are at the line. We defined what we did as "voter education" about taxes, as opposed to taking a specific position for or against the initiative.

 

There's an advantage of being a 501©(3). With several of the organizations I worked for there were always candidates seeking endorsements. Being non-profit gave us a great excuse to say, "Sorry. Can't do that." But we could and did work with them on getting legislation passed.

 

What I'm suggesting, at least in the short term, doesn't go within a mile of any of this. As part of a sentence, it's "information and education about the health and safety of escorting, including decriminalization." It seems clear that's the level that that big decriminalization coalition including HRC and the ACLU that has formed is at now: education, and basically promoting the idea. My hunch is they would welcome connecting with people and a website actually involved in the thing they are trying to protect. Maybe they are involved in some local or state initiatives, like the escort safety law I posted on in California. But any or all of that would be fine within the context of a 501©(3).

 

That said, this is all stuff a steering committee should be batting around, I think. I'm sure there are merits to every option discussed so far, like ©6 or an LLC or a corporation. I think any form of community ownership would be a good thing compared to the position Bill was in.

 

I'm curious if anyone knew Hooboy well enough to know his risk calculus on these issues? I never met him. But from a distance he seemed very willing to put his ass on the line. There were all kinds of very specific reviews written about me when he was in charge. At least from the people who've written reviews I know, people would love it if we could move back in that direction. It would be interesting if anybody who knew Hooboy could speak to Hooboy's perception of his own risk, particularly on the review website, and how he mitigated against it. Or didn't.

As someone who is on a legislative advocacy committee of a 501©(3), as long you stick to advocating for specific legislation or language in bills and avoid any electoral lobbying, you are usually in the clear. Also, the money spent on these activities needs to be small amount of the overall spending the organization does.

[+ stevenkesslar]

I have no idea whether this is important, but should the people in that group be distributed geographically as well? Would it be a good or a bad thing if they were all from the US?

 

@mikecarey is one of the smartest guys in the room, from Oz. I shouldn't single him out, but he'd be a great voice on the matter. There are some really bright thinkers here from Canada, which is where about 10 % of our visitors come from. If they want to be on this committee, they can speak up. That said, I don't know that it's important anyone outside the US is formally part of this.

 

In terms of what I will call clients (meaning those who aren't escorts, and probably hire escorts) I don't think that geographic distinctions matter. The most important thing is people who are capable of the purposes @rvwnsd outlined, which have nothing to do with geography.

 

I'd mostly think in terms of distribution of a steering committee based on interests and function. What do people come here for? I'm just going to go on the assumption that we're talking about 6 people, although it could be 9 or 12 or whatever. And I'll assume of those 6 people 4 are clients. Ideally they are people who don't all come here for the same reasons. One person might come here because they are seeking information on escorts in the Deli. Some people, like me, like to rant about politics. Some people just like the sense of community, even if they never meet anyone here. I like that @rvwnsd suggested one role as:

• Consider suggestions and requests made by the general Forum membership
  

So that would be facilitated by having people who come here for different reasons, and are open to new ideas. That said, in terms of the immediate needs I don't know that any of that matters in determining whether it makes sense to structure as an LLC, or non-profit, or neither.

 

@Oliver is keeping what I suspect is a growing list of people who want to be contacted if this site disappears. That probably is now a less important list than it was last week. That list builds on his list of people who normally attend, or at least are interested in, the annual pool party he hosts. So there's a whole group of people around him, some of whom I used to affectionately refer to as "The Founding Fathers." They drive what is sort of the big annual prom, a pool party, which is always one of the most popular posts here. So somehow that group and their interests should be involved. But I don't speak for them, other than to say that they are older gentleman who would probably be uninterested in formally being associated with management, let alone ownership, of this site.

 

They would tend to agree with what @Coolwave35 just posted. We just want to have a pool party and post pictures and discuss escorts with ads on Rentmen. Can't we just do that? Why make it so complicated? For people who feel that way, a steering committee probably makes no sense.

 

To make the opposite point, I think it would be great if younger people got involved. Because this is a site oriented to people who hire escorts, and those people tend to be older, it makes sense that there is a natural age demographic for this site. But that's why the idea of somebody like @Coolwave35 who in his 30's seemed appealing on the face of it. So I think it would be good if there was somebody or a few people younger in this effort who who would like to see the site gradually updated, both technologically and in terms of content.

 

There's also a debate happening about why have any escorts involved at all. Which is why I suggested something like a 2 to 1 ratio of clients and escorts, meaning 4 clients and 2 escorts if it is a 6 person group.

 

Here's some whining related to why I suggested that. It's another tug of war here that in my experience can be both playful and irritating. So at one point due to extenuating circumstances I ended up hosting the annual pool party at my house, at the request of its permanent host, a client and friend. The next year I ended up hosting it again, mostly because his kitchen bitch is actually a bit of a bitch. He insisted he wanted to create his wonderful culinary delights in my kitchen again. Especially when I had it at my place a second year in a row I got some serious pushback from some regulars about how escorts are supposed to attend the party, but not run it. My solution was simple. I told the host and his kitchen bitch, both clients and friends of mine, that they better not even think of having their fucking party in my house again. It was a cute story, to me at least. But I'm telling it because it does reflect a dynamic I think is real and pervasive. If it's a 6 person steering committee, probably 4 of them should be "clients" or people who are not escorts.

 

That said, the escorts I still know are ones who have escorted for a long time and have been friends for a long time. I think it's mostly accurate to say they see both this website and the review site as next to useless, in terms of how their businesses actually work. Some of that may be who they are. Some of it may be that they are on the back ends of their escorting shelf life. But they're well known and well liked people. My strong sense, which I can't say from experience as a current escort, is these sites are not as dynamic and don't do for escorts I know what they did for me in their heyday.

 

Even if that's true, that may be perfectly fine to people here. But it's not a growth strategy. When I started escorting I quickly figured out how to use the review website, especially, and to some extent this one as well to grow my business. So it would actually be great to have an escort who is doing that right now on the steering committee. Because he'd probably have some good ideas. I was that guy 15 years ago, but I'm not today. We all age. Ain't it a bitch? (Sorry to disappoint you, @Unicorn. Maybe you'll be one of the lucky guys who never grow up. )

 

And since I'm letting my inner bitch run free, I'll say something else. I think Bill thought he was being clever about steering around FOSTA/SESTA and what happened to Rentboy. I don't think he was as clever as he thought he was. Whether he was Guy Fawkes or Daddy would have made no difference to the Feds, if they had in fact arrested him and seized all his assets. I think the reality is that he would have made a horrible target. He joked to me about how a jail cell would be bigger than his apartment. He was a low-income elderly Gay man. In addition to a chorus of how the homophobic law was picking on older Gay men, there would have been massive freedom of speech pushback. But I don't think various things "Guy" did to literally try to mask his websites are models we should necessarily continue.

 

If somebody asked me what is the one thing that could be done to the current website to better insulate it, that's a no brainer. We should eliminate The Deli. Get rid of the whole thing. Anybody who posts a link to any Rentmen ad should be banned permanently from the site. If you are not immediately clear on why I say that, go reread the Rentboy complaint. Jeffrey, who ran Rentboy, and the guys that founded and ran Backpage thought they were being clever, too, I suspect. But the complaint says that whether you use the word "rentboy" or "escort" or "prostitute" they all mean the same thing. At least according to the people who wrote the complaint. And whether you agree or disagree, what matters is that once they seized his assets, Jeffrey was in a weak position. So he ended up pleading guilty to "promoting prostitution." You can make any argument you want about the significance of those links to Rentmen ads. But so can the feds. News flash. Turns out they have more power and money.

 

This is partly why I think this would be a good time for some younger clients and some younger escorts who think about these things differently to step forward. If HRC and the ACLU can be for decriminalization, we can be, too, I think. Are they going to shut HRC and the ACLU down?

 

My point is that these are the things I hope a steering committee is thinking about when they are talking about whether this is an LLC or a non-profit, and what the basic purposes of having a website to talk about escorting are. That said, if everybody feels everything is just fine the way it is and nothing needs to change or improve or adapt, a steering committee just makes no sense.

[+ MysticMenace]

I do not know if we have this capability on this site - perhaps a poll with some key questions might help?

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

I think Bill thought he was being clever about steering around FOSTA/SESTA and what happened to Rentboy. I don't think he was as clever as he thought he was. Whether he was Guy Fawkes or Daddy would have made no difference to the Feds, if they had in fact arrested him and seized all his assets. I think the reality is that he would have made a horrible target....But I don't think various things "Guy" did to literally try to mask his websites are models we should necessarily continue.

 

I agree with you that Guy probably spent more time dedicated to all this than was necessary, probably preventing him from doing other things to keep the site up with current technologies.

 

If somebody asked me what is the one thing that could be done to the current website to better insulate it, that's a no brainer. We should eliminate The Deli. Get rid of the whole thing.

 

Interesting thought, but from a client perspective, I sense that the Deli is the lure that brings folks here. It was for me all those years ago.

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

I do not know if we have this capability on this site - perhaps a poll with some key questions might help?

 

I seem to recall that there was a poll functionality a few years ago, and in the last refresh of it, the ability to create the polls was dropped. @Cooper or @deej - am I recalling correctly?

[+ stevenkesslar]

Interesting thought, but from a client perspective, I sense that the Deli is the lure that brings folks here. It was for me all those years ago.

 

Which is my point. I suspect The Deli was the biggest lure here for a lot of people. People want to talk about escorts who advertise on Rentmen. On Daddy's site, they wanted to review them. Therein lies the problem for both sites. Rentboy was shut down because, according to DHS, it promoted prostitution. Jeffrey plead guilty to promoting prostitution. It's probably a good guess that if the Feds wanted to go after Rentmen, it would be for ................... wait for it ......................... promoting prostitution. Of course, going after Rentmen would be harder, but not impossible, for them.

 

Is the Deli, where thread after thread has hyperlinks to Rentmen, promoting prostitution? To paraphrase a former President, it depends on what the meaning of "promote" is. The reality is with Rentboy and Backpage, the Feds could define things however they wanted. They could even come up with a new law, FOSTA/SESTA, that was designed to go after websites like Rentboy and Backpage. So you can hire a lawyer or an army of lawyers and think it through any way you want. But once you're in jail and your assets have been seized, you may find out that your guess didn't work out so well.

 

So did becoming "Guy Fawkes" somehow shelter a website with a forum like The Deli? I doubt it. I'm not a lawyer. What probably sheltered this site and the review site is that Bill was a bad target, as an elderly low-income Gay man. And even if we assume some bright bureaucrat pondered the idea, if they were bright they might have assumed it would ignite a backlash about free speech and LGBTQ rights. Even more so now that ACLU and HRC are saying "hands off." In part because these actions mostly make escorting less safe for escorts.

 

So we can keep doing things exactly the same. You'll notice nobody ultimately went after this website, or Daddysreview.com. That said, The Deli is our biggest negative when it comes to legal or political vulnerability. I'm not a lawyer. But I could write the complaint myself, just by using the Rentboy complaint as a template and changing some vocabulary. No matter what we do, there is risk. Bill knew that, and Cooper writes about it on the top thread pinned in The Deli.

 

My argument is that the best way to deal with a negative is always to turn it into a positive. Yes, we're for jumping into bed with escorts. (I of course mean the figuratively.) Jumping into bed with HRC and the ACLU makes it much safer for us, I think. Freedom of speech, and health and safety, and stuff like that. But that's a debate, if we want to have it.

 

Whichever escorts or coalition we choose to jump in bed with, I don't think we're jumping the gun. One reason is that the presumed administrators once probate is completed are saying it is now time to decide who owns and runs this site. But the more immediate reason they are saying this right now is that we did kind of jump the gun by moving all the data to a new server.

 

There's a lively debate about whether that's intellectual property theft over at Gay Guides, which a few people here are posting on. I already stated my ignorant whore view. Before Bill died, these websites were the community's websites, which Bill raised donations from the community to run. So now that Bill has died the community is simply planning to run and manage the site as a community. We're not stealing our own data. If some lawyer pops up to say we did something wrong, I'll be happy to be on the list of Gay guys who testify. I'm part of this community, and I helped Bill raise donations to run an LGBTQ website. What's the problem?

 

I don't think we are going to have a problem. But, as I said already, all this is more reason to think some form of community ownership, LLC or non-profit or corporation, makes sense.

 

@bigjoey and I recently agreed on one thing. A good lawyer ought to be able to argue things both ways. I offered the suggestion that a good whore also has to do the same thing. We have to be able to see things from the top down, and the bottom up. Sometimes at the same time. So in that spirit, now I will refute my own argument.

 

This is a fun hobby for me, I’m not looking for an extra career.

 

One financier. One tech guy. The existing team of moderators with all the access codes should the financier or tech guy die unexpectedly should be plenty. Why is this spiraling wildly into an enormous project?

 

If the community wants 15 cooks working In the kitchen, that isn’t a model I’d want to be a part of.

 

Just so it's clear, I cut and pasted that from the thread on forming a steering committee. The prospective financer for this site is basically saying we don't need a steering committee, which turns a fun hobby into an enormous project.

 

As far as I'm concerned, case closed. The guy who will pay the bills is saying this is all unnecessary. So let me play out the most extreme hypothetical scenario. Jeffrey probably viewed Rentboy as a fun hobby, too. As the guy with the money who paid the bills, that made him the target. Could anything like that happen? And would it take 18 years, like it did with Jeffrey? Obviously, we can't say. What we can say is the presumed target of any future action against this site is not worried. Like him, I've always seen escorting as a fun hobby. So I can relate. Why not just leave it that?

 

If this were a democracy and there were a vote on this, I'm really not sure how this would go. But I'm sure lots of people would agree that this should simply be a fun project. Maybe a few legal dots still have to be connected, and that's it. Case closed. Besides, lots of people thought the reviews were too watered down anyways. Why not just let that ship sink?

 

Arguably, our work is pretty much done here, boys. Which is fine with me. The plague is winding down, so I can just go back to having fun.

Edited April 30, 2021 by stevenkesslar

[mike carey]

I have no idea whether this is important, but should the people in that group be distributed geographically as well? Would it be a good or a bad thing if they were all from the US?

I think that it would be neither good nor bad if they were all from the US. Clearly most should be, for two reasons. Most forum members live there, but importantly the site operates in a US legal environment and understanding US law on the forum's main topic and also the regulatory environment of LLCs and not-for-profits is critical. I am agnostic on whether a geographic spread within the US is important, and have no idea whether the domicile (by state) of the ownership vehicle matters.

 

Thanks @stevenkesslar for the unwarranted compliment, and yes, I had thought of putting my hand up. I still hesitate to do so as I'm not sure I can offer the required level of insight into what is best for the forum, or that I could contribute effectively to urgent discussions given the time differences involved. I think there is a need for community input into structure and future management of the sites that is more focused than the Cabana, but whether that should have a management role, or eventually be limited to an advisory or a focus group role is an open question. I'm watching the evolving efforts closely.

Edited April 30, 2021 by mike carey

[+ Coolwave35]

case ain’t closed. No decision maker has taken me up on my offer which has lead me to believe they’re going in another direction. I support whatever keeps the forums alive.

[+ WilliamM]

I agree with you that Guy probably spent more time dedicated to all this than was necessary, probably preventing him from doing other things to keep the site up with current technologies.

 

 

 

Interesting thought, but from a client perspective, I sense that the Deli is the lure that brings folks here. It was for me all those years ago.

The escort reviews were extremely popular when Hooboy was alive. The reviewers were always the first things I read here. It was exciting when a new young man with great potential was reviewed for the first time.

 

Guy got to know members who contributed, and in a sincere way. He also was very knowledgeable about the gay community, national and international. Basically a. Nice Guy,

 

But neither Hooboy nor Guy were paying much attention to their respective Heath issues Remember Hooboy had a stroke a month or two before he passed away

Edited April 30, 2021 by WilliamM

[+ stevenkesslar]

I support whatever keeps the forums alive.

 

Me too.

 

I view this as a win/win either way.

 

I'm going to use the phrase "benevolent dictator" because somebody else used it. Under that model, I don't have to worry about a god damn thing. I have no problem with that. I have no financial obligation, or legal or political risk. And the problem with that is?

 

The alternative, whether it is a non-profit or an LLC or a corporation, may involve others things. It may involve me giving money regularly. It may involve my real name on a piece of paper, so that if DOJ or DHS or somebody else gets the bright idea of going after this or the escort review website my ass is legally on the line.

 

My radar tells me that funding this website through donations is possible, but a pain in the ass. Anyone who has worked on grassroots fundraising should know that's almost always the case, anyway. The good news is Bill proved that in this case, it's possible. I think we know with Bill it was always at least somewhat unstable. I can attest to it being a bit like pulling teeth from the pieces I was involved in. This GoFundMe is a nice symbol of it. We did meet our goal. But @JEC and I have both posted it took longer than we would have hoped. The last donation I made was actually partly a test in my mind. It was immediately after we survived a near death experience. So I was just curious how many people would rush to donate $5 or $50 if given a good reason to do so. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. But nobody rushed to donate. Again, this is 0 % surprising.

 

So I think it's good to be explicit about these things. A self-funding community donation model would depend on a core group of maybe a few dozen individuals that are committed to donating to this site for the good of the community. I know that is possible, because I helped do it. But it almost goes without saying that it is easier to have a benevolent dictator like Hooboy.

 

So either way, in terms of the survival of this site, I view the choice as a win/win.

 

Whether the escort review site survives is a whole different issue. I said in a private message today to an escort who I think should be on a steering committee that if that site dies, it is a nail in this site's coffin. Some people may disagree with me. Others may say even if it turns out I'm right it's no great loss. I can view it that way. I made a boatload of money off that site, and made friendships that have lasted 20 years. Long enough for @Unicorn to make fun of me because of my age. So one way I can look at it is I got what I'm going to get out of the site. Why give a shit?

 

(By the way, Daddy once told me when he was editing an article I got published on Rentboy that you have to be very careful when you talk about aging with Gay men. The context is I was arguing that the Rentboy complaint criminalizes being an older Gay man who hires escorts. As far as I'm concerned, it's fun for a doctor to make fun of my age. We all know I'm older than most people here, and I'm practically on death's door. That said, @Unicorn, you might want to be a bit more careful about age jokes. It might hurt the feelings of guys here who are decades younger than me. )

[+ Charlie]

Me too.

 

I view this as a win/win either way.

 

I'm going to use the phrase "benevolent dictator" because somebody else used it. Under that model, I don't have to worry about a god damn thing. I have no problem with that. I have no financial obligation, or legal or political risk. And the problem with that is?

 

The alternative, whether it is a non-profit or an LLC or a corporation, may involve others things. It may involve me giving money regularly. It may involve my real name on a piece of paper, so that if DOJ or DHS or somebody else gets the bright idea of going after this or the escort review website my ass is legally on the line.

 

My radar tells me that funding this website through donations is possible, but a pain in the ass. Anyone who has worked on grassroots fundraising should know that's almost always the case, anyway. The good news is Bill proved that in this case, it's possible. I think we know with Bill it was always at least somewhat unstable. I can attest to it being a bit like pulling teeth from the pieces I was involved in. This GoFundMe is a nice symbol of it. We did meet our goal. But @JEC and I have both posted it took longer than we would have hoped. The last donation I made was actually partly a test in my mind. It was immediately after we survived a near death experience. So I was just curious how many people would rush to donate $5 or $50 if given a good reason to do so. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions. But nobody rushed to donate. Again, this is 0 % surprising.

 

So I think it's good to be explicit about these things. A self-funding community donation model would depend on a core group of maybe a few dozen individuals that are committed to donating to this site for the good of the community. I know that is possible, because I helped do it. But it almost goes without saying that it is easier to have a benevolent dictator like Hooboy.

To be clear, although Bill implied that the "donations" were to support the sites, people weren't writing checks to The Message Forum or Daddy's Reviews and deducting them on their income tax. Those little icons under our handles were described as indications of financial support for the site during a year, but often that meant putting some cash in an envelope and sending it to BIll when he posted that his funds were running low. Sometimes he wasn't even sure who had sent them. I got an icon one year because I paid one of his uncovered medical bills. If there is no owner who is willing and able to cover the cost of running the the M-B, then some mechanism would have to be established to maintain a guaranteed steady income for the site.

[+ JEC]

But @JEC and I have both posted it took longer than we would have hoped.

Respectfully, I don't think I ever posted that. All of my public communication thanked members for their contributions, and asked them to please consider supporting the future of the forum. I do hope we will raise more, and am thankful to all who have donated. Peace friends ✌

[+ WilliamM]

To be clear, although Bill implied that the "donations" were to support the sites, people weren't writing checks to The Message Forum or Daddy's Reviews and deducting them on their income tax. Those little icons under our handles were described as indications of financial support for the site during a year, but often that meant putting some cash in an envelope and sending it to BIll when he posted that his funds were running low. Sometimes he wasn't even sure who had sent them. I got an icon one year because I paid one of his uncovered medical bills. If there is no owner who is willing and able to cover the cost of running the the M-B, then some mechanism would have to be established to maintain a guaranteed steady income for the site.

I doubt anyone expected an income tax deduction. More seriously, Guy often made it clear that providing a name one used here was necessary

[+ stevenkesslar]

To be clear, although Bill implied that the "donations" were to support the sites, people weren't writing checks to The Message Forum or Daddy's Reviews and deducting them on their income tax. Those little icons under our handles were described as indications of financial support for the site during a year, but often that meant putting some cash in an envelope and sending it to BIll when he posted that his funds were running low. Sometimes he wasn't even sure who had sent them. I got an icon one year because I paid one of his uncovered medical bills. If there is no owner who is willing and able to cover the cost of running the the M-B, then some mechanism would have to be established to maintain a guaranteed steady income for the site.

 

Respectfully, I don't think I ever posted that. All of my public communication thanked members for their contributions, and asked them to please consider supporting the future of the forum. I do hope we will raise more, and am thankful to all who have donated. Peace friends ✌

 

Both of these points reinforce what I was trying to say. So thanks guys.

 

To Charlie's point, I know someone who contributed by paying for Bill's hotel bill when him came to the pool party. One year if I recall right this guy and I split the bill. Or maybe we decided I'd pay for it that year. It all goes to the point that doing it that way is more complicated.

 

We know for a fact that it worked, because here we are. The very good news, which I take as a community victory, is this site is alive. But I think we also know for a fact it was a bit complicated. And sometimes a bit unstable. My intention was to say if we go that route - meaning both community ownership and community funding - we better be clear that it is going to take some work. And it will need to be a community effort.

 

I'll just randomly pull up an example. Lot's of non-profits have boards where one of the things is everybody on the board gives money and helps raise money. So if somebody asked me if I'd be willing to be on a steering committee for this site and pledge to give $1000 a year and raise money from others, I'd say yes. But if somebody said would you rather do nothing and pay nothing, I'd say yes, yes, and yes. If you throw in a margarita I'd add a fourth yes. I may be an old and ignorant whore. But I'm no fool.

 

@JEC, sorry if I mischaracterized anything you said or didn't say. Bottom line is you are a hero in this drama because you helped get us from point A to point B. And you were clear that you weren't interested in playing a long term role. I'm grateful for what you did. As I said, we met and exceeded our goal. So that is a community victory, too. Nothing I said was meant to diminish a community victory. The opposite.

 

That said, I stand by my point. I don't think it would be easy to fund this website on a self-funding community donation model. So if we are going to do it, we better be clear about that and have a steering committee and a plan. It makes perfect sense to me that @Coolwave35 would say I'll pay the bills, so problem solved. So a steering committee is not necessary or even particularly helpful. It's a generous offer.

 

I have been here and done this before. Sometimes in somewhat similar ways but in one case in a very similar way with Bill. One night in Vegas years ago I took Bill out to dinner and the tone was happy and somewhat congratulatory. I never asked Bill how much money he was actually getting in pledges or donations, and he never told me. But I had a file with names and pledges in it so I had a rough idea. I did softly pitch the idea that we could formalize this donation thing and have a group of people pledging money every year and I'd help keep it going as donors stopped giving and needed to be replaced. I would never have used a phrase like "steering committee," because I think I know how Bill would have felt about that. The bottom line is that Bill said I'd done well, and now I could go home. I'm not the type of person who tries hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So I decided to leave well enough alone. Which is also what I was hearing from the people pledging money.

 

So we're at another "leave well enough alone" moment. If a bunch of people want to join a steering committee, we'll know that because they will volunteer to join a steering committee. If nobody wants to join a steering committee, that's a sort of answer. Either way I view it as a win/win. And I always think it is a good thing for any community to decide its own fate, one way or the other.

Edited April 30, 2021 by stevenkesslar