DWnyc

Exactly. Once we veer away from from looking at this through the lens of capitalism, market rates, sales pitches that don’t yield a 100% success rate … and start using words like “disrespect” and “insulting” …we need to think about what’s hugely insulting and disrespectful to clients as well.

If you explain this to a provider when inquiring about an appointment and they’re willing to take you on, I think they can be helpful. Some may think you’re role playing and trying to act innocent / “first time fantasy” etc but so what (unless they assume part of your fantasy is going from zero to a hundred in a few mins, the only thing I’d advise you to be wary of). So I’d advise you to go with someone you like based on their profile and take it from there. Ask lots of questions in the session, in a way that might be uncomfortable in a non provider environment. Its actually a good way to cross some thresholds without the pressure of “real people” and their reactions. You may even want to try bottoming in a safe environment to test your assumption. Good luck.

I don’t know if RM has a policy against putting Twitter ids on … because I see a lot of codewords and formatting to put them in a provider’s profile. When it’s there if I have any interest in the provider I like checking their Twitter pages out (though don’t interact with them there) as there are usually a lot of videos, and more of a sense of who these folks are.

This topic comes up frequently on this forum. I’m one of the few who consistently argues that there is a racism problem and specifically when it comes to provider / client interaction, usually before some others get uncomfortable if not already denying it. I can be an optimist on this if I choose, and that’s partly idealism but also based on experience. I, however, am not denying you your views or experience.

Fast forward from the “should providers be able to request a photo” discussion and I’ve had at least two request a video call prior to meeting

I know at least one provider who claims he gets the highest share of his clients from Twitter

The chairman is likely playing golf while trusting the CEO with billions of dollars … I think the glass ceiling has been shattered enough in that example

Exactly …

@Jamie21 I was ready to sign up until you brought up the Dolly - Whitney thing. No way after that …

The market will determine, at the end of the day, where a man’s pricing ends up. But … That pricing does not determine a man’s value or worth.

Just a friendly warning to the community at large

Careful though as that can often be a way of them increasing the billed time, which is fine if you’re ok with that. I’ve had both … provider saying “I’m having so much fun let’s keep going” when time is up and if I say “I don’t want to pay for more time” a reply something like “are you kidding, this is hot …” etc (would I always cover with tip for extra time, to be clear) I’ve also gone over without realizing and the provider then saying “this is my job, you know my hourly rate and you didn’t stop …” and so I’ll settle and disappear (with no repeat) before it gets to the awkward conversation of “what, did you think I was spending time with you because I was enjoying it??!” I typically pay attention to time even if provider doesn’t (the good ones will of course) … and have also had providers react in both directions … “don’t worry about time, it’s totally cool …” as well as “yeah you’re right, we should wind down … unless you want to extend and here’s what that means …”. Funniest one for me was when I noticed time was up, the provider said “no let’s keep going … this is hot … “ etc and I assume he meant it’s part of the agreed session … but a few seconds later he added “you got cash for the extra time, right?” I pushed him away and said, let’s stop please, and said I had another appointment to deflect a little. I got up and started getting dressed, and he launched into a tirade of “you know how frustrating that is, I’m so close, so annoying, you’re so selfish … “ etc. BFE without asking for it

There’s a reality of numbers … There's a reason why there’s a “model modify” stereotype for some as well … too few examples of interaction for most and if they are of similar nature, it gets grossed up in the population as well

I suspect both

I have seen it frequently … but you’re talking about a demographic too small in number to move perceptions

I think there’s another aspect here: There’s stigma and fear of exposure for many so the awkwardness or problem would have to be extreme for some to raise a fuss. And the higher net worth a client has, the loss in value from provider misbehavior feels like less of a problem. Easier to “let it go”.

I’d argue it differently. America doesn’t strive for equality, but that’s not because it’s racist or supports inequality. It’s from being a very capitalist society. “Equality” is ratified once the business case for it is there, rather than set as a moral target to achieve.

Actually I did … But I don’t agree that what you did there is the same as what I was suggesting. You didn’t ask as your initial response if he had already seen your materials and if he was comfortable with terms and shut it down if he said or you realized he hadn’t. You send him details of your website. Fine so far. He reviews and replies it’s not for him in response. Are you saying once someone visits your website that is a contractual obligation on their part to make a booking at the rate listed and anything else is wasting your time with such traumatic consequences? I would actually say him not following up to your question on how much would he be willing to pay might have been respectful behavior on his part knowing this wasn’t going to work and he didn’t want to waste your time further.

No it’s not. That issue of deposits has loaded into it a host of other factors such as disclosure of the clients identity and prepayment for service that may not end up being delivered as promised or at all with no recourse, and plenty of clients have horror stories of provider bad behavior on these issues. You just described the typical American open house. Happens all the time, my friend. Its not a question of if I like it or not; it’s a recognized part of the sales process. You use the word “respect” quite a lot. If you really find this process disrespectful (and capitalism can seem that way, depending on how one fares out of it), there are likely ways you can take more control. If you’re really not prepared to have a discussion on price (though now you’ve now more than once said you basically are …), and are particularly sensitive to the issue of your rates being available and people needing to see that material before contacting you, how about then starting with “before we discuss anything further I’d like to confirm you’ve been on my website and are comfortable on the pricing there. Are you?”. If they say no, and that’s a problem for you, and the disrespect you feel outweighs a salesperson’s instinct for any meaningful net revenue that may arise, end the conversation there and then. The time spent would be less than venting and reliving the experience to this degree.

All I take away from your asking him, how much he can afford, and what I presume most people would take away, is that your rates aren’t actually sacrosanct. And if you offer discounts as you’ve said elsewhere, or if you say you were willing to hear him out to see if his counter offer was lower than something you’d be willing to accept (implies you would actually accept something lower price than your published rate) why shouldn’t someone try to have a conversation about price?

No response doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t know what he wants. So when you asked him “how much are you looking to afford” doesn’t that imply you’re open to a price reduction / negotiation? Unless you were looking for a debate with him on why he’s wrong …?

Agreed in principle with your post (remembering RM can’t list rates in the US) but I also have to say if I see “rates are non-negotiable” in this context, I’m unlikely to believe it, just given how much I’ve seen providers try to negotiate with me when I haven’t event tried myself. It suggests to me that I actually leave things on the table because I don’t negotiate in this context. Im talking of providers as a whole group and not anyone specific. ”And that’s my final word on the subject …” (until the next time).

Surely anyone can say whatever they want to you … but it shouldn’t affect you if you’re comfortable with your position and have the data and experience to back it up. One or two or three … clients telling you you’re too expensive shouldn't be a problem if you have at least as many examples where clients have paid what you’re asking and have validation that the market tolerates that. He can say you’re fat, ugly and stupid … but that doesn’t make it true Even if his only goal was to mess with you … why not just walk away and move on?

Even if a rate is posted it shouldn’t be unexpected that a potential client asks and it’s not always the case they haven’t gone through available info. Maybe it differs by geography and type of provider, but anecdotally, I would say without what is called haggling, and my own style is never negotiate in this field just take it or leave it, at least a third of the time I end up paying a different rate because something comes up in the back and forth before confirming and sometimes it’s actually higher. Annoying for the provider for me to ask rate or my having crossed a red line in doing so? It’s not a red line for every provider, so if it is for you, move on. I’ve had providers tell me they knew I was serious as I started with that question rather than what might trigger a warning for sexting etc. Lastly, is it really the end of the world if a potential client hasn’t read the available material including the rate piece? Could be all sorts of reasons: wasn’t aware of it, read part of it but missed the price part or wanted clarification etc. Or wonders if that’s the rate today. I don’t think I’ve ever reached out to a provider knowing a rate (I’m in the US) but I can see myself wondering, particularly on a website or something that maybe poorly designed, full of typos, bad grammar etc whether the rate is correct or out of date (or consistent, in that the provider honors what is there in writing … on many things they do not). I saw a provider site the other day that had reference to his upcoming travel dated 2020 … so 3 years later I might be wondering is the rate there still what it is today? It’s not like the client is applying for a job with the provider or entrance into w college and this is a test of their ability to follow instructions.

Though a case can still be made for abuse of power in some scenarios. If someone feels they risk losing their job because a customer (who is “always right”) has made an offer they are not supposed to refuse for the sake of business, or that there may be a false complaint if refused, that could count. Would require a lot of evidence. And patience.