Raise The Rate 2018 Proposal Letter

[+ SundayZip]

... Surcharge waived for anyone who can produce evidence that they campaigned against the passage of the bill or engaged in public speaking to raise awareness about the damage it would do!

 

I now understand that you were joking about a surcharge, but maybe that's not a bad idea.. but with a twist: A 10% surcharge is waived for clients who show proof of an equal contribution to an organization that lobbies for sex worker rights or provides legal support for people who host websites. If a client is uncomfortable with making a direct contribution (privacy reasons), you collect the surcharge and then contribute that amount to one the organizations.

[+ sync]

Trade wars are neither good nor easy to win.

[+ sniper]

The OP, respectfully, is in a relatively rare subcategory of provider that enables him to command a premium. His experience is likely an outlier in terms of ability to raise rates.

[cany10011]

It sounds like both providers and clients will be affected by this ruling. May be prudent instead of escalating a "trade war" by increasing prices to supporting each other by continuing business as usual.

[coriolis888]

 

I nominate this thread to win the prize for the most long winded posts.

 

 

I also nominate this thread for a prize because the person who has written countless long posts is supposedly in India, according to the rentmen ad associated with that person.

[+ purplekow]

I’m not here to collect clients who would be offended by these ideas. Nor am I new to commenting on discussion boards. I am fine with turning off clients who would be offended by my suggestion that they should hire less frequently or add another stream of income. It’s basic advice for anyone who finds themself involved in an expensive hobby on a budget. If someone can’t handle basic economic advice, they have an entitlement issue. My target clients don’t have any sense of entitlement to hire with any specific level of frequency. If you can’t afford to hire as often as you like, hire less frequently or add a stream of income. I stand behind the sentiment. I certainly have to make the same kind of economic decisions with regard to my expensive hobbies too.

 

No one has an issue when escorts are suggested to get a 2nd job when they’re struggling to make ends meet (which usually doesn’t involve any $200/hr hobby expenses). But when it’s suggested to clients to do the same if they want to continue to indulge with the same level of frequency in a growingly expensive hobby, suddenly people have a problem with that suggestion. Interesting double standard.

 

My god man, you come across so arrogantly, it is amazing that you can maintain a business. I suppose either you act the fool in your business or you are acting the fool here, or perhaps both. Or perhaps your client base really doesn't care what you have to say as long as you have what they want between your legs. I am actually now sorry to read that you are doing well, because your sort of arrogance is a a scar on the escorting profession, in my opinion. I would never have hired you, but I can only imagine that most here who might have, have long lost patience with your pontification and smugness, so your "I do not need anyone here" thrust is working.

You might want to consider getting a second job, because with the attitude you have shown here, even niche buyers are going to get tired of your schtick and even your 5 figure weeks might not carry you through, expensive hobby or not.

[+ Lance_Navarro]

I think there's a fundamental difference in the dynamics of male/male and male/female relationships and attitudes about casual (compensated or not) sex.

 

Times are changing -- slowly -- but this is still a very patriarchal society and female "virtue" has a value to straight men that does not have a corollary in the gay male world. There is also a sizable difference in the stigma placed on female sex workers that requires additional compensation.

 

Finally, and probably most importantly, is that gay men can more easily access alternate hookups. They may not be the insanely hot young men we have hired, but there are plenty of acceptable peers if you just lower your expectations. It has always been easier for gay men to get sex. I know that things are loosening up in the straight world, but I don't think they are anywhere close to the traditional and current state of our hook ups. Gay men know this, so the cost/benefit is unlikely to ever be the same. At least not in my lifetime.

 

Great points and this is exactly what I meant when I said that I don't think that M4M escorts can charge, nor should they try and charge as much as women. The myth and stigma that women don't want sex as much as men do, gives female sex workers greater leverage for higher rates, whereas gay men (stereotypically) can get laid much easier because men always want sex.

 

I said in my post that I've only raised my rates twice in 8 years, but I realized that I've actually only done it once. I would never want to raise my rates to a point where I've priced out a majority of guys out there and am only accessible to the very wealthy. I love what I do and want to be busy.

[+ Tarte Gogo]

My god man, you come across so arrogantly, it is amazing that you can maintain a business. I suppose either you act the fool in your business or you are acting the fool here, or perhaps both. Or perhaps your client base really doesn't care what you have to say as long as you have what they want between your legs. I am actually now sorry to read that you are doing well, because your sort of arrogance is a a scar on the escorting profession, in my opinion. I would never have hired you, but I can only imagine that most here who might have, have long lost patience with your pontification and smugness, so your "I do not need anyone here" thrust is working.

You might want to consider getting a second job, because with the attitude you have shown here, even niche buyers are going to get tired of your schtick and even your 5 figure weeks might not carry you through, expensive hobby or not.

I can't see Zachary's post any longer because I have pressed "Ignore" on his profile (and I recommend everyone does the same, btw), clearly he is not here to help, or to be visible to potential clients, he is here just to lecture us about all the things he knows about his own niche business, and flaunt his income. He probably gets a kick every time he hints at how much he made with so and so client. That is why he is here.

Let him do that. But let's not read it.

[coriolis888]

 

My god man, you come across so arrogantly, it is amazing that you can maintain a business. I suppose either you act the fool in your business or you are acting the fool here, or perhaps both. Or perhaps your client base really doesn't care what you have to say as long as you have what they want between your legs. I am actually now sorry to read that you are doing well, because your sort of arrogance is a a scar on the escorting profession, in my opinion. I would never have hired you, but I can only imagine that most here who might have, have long lost patience with your pontification and smugness, so your "I do not need anyone here" thrust is working.

You might want to consider getting a second job, because with the attitude you have shown here, even niche buyers are going to get tired of your schtick and even your 5 figure weeks might not carry you through, expensive hobby or not.

 

 

Bravo! Right on -

[+ VictorPowers]

I won't raise my rates even if so many others choose to do so. I dont feel the market would take that well. I feel it's a matter of affordability and I dont want to gouge clients that are already great to me. I feel a rate hike would deter many many hires and would do more harm than good.

[+ Tarte Gogo]

I won't raise my rates even if so many others choose to do so. I dont feel the market would take that well. I feel it's a matter of affordability and I dont want to gouge clients that are already great to me. I feel a rate hike would deter many many hires and would do more harm than good.

The cartel, as defined by @FreshFluff , is already broken!

[+ José Soplanucas]

OMG. Sunday, Church day, and we are still talking shit?

 

[YoungAD]

In all honesty, I believe the OP and the escort who has now assumed control of the thread could stand to listen to their own advice and take more appealing pictures or go to a gym.

[+ stevenkesslar]

I can think of a more productive form of resistance.

"Dear Fellow Providers,

 

This letter is in regards to the Sex Worker Protection campaign of 2018, #SexWorkerProtection2018. You may be aware of the effects FOSTA/SESTA has had on your business and peace of mind. I am requesting, on the behalf of the entire adult industry, that you ask your clients to contribute an amount equal to 10% of your fee (or more), to one of following organizations that lobby for sex worker rights or provide legal support for people who host websites related to sex work:

 

< list of organizations>

 

etc... "

 

This is what would motivate me to spend more money as opposed to the opportunistic money-grab being proposed by the OP.

 

 

LOL. Great idea. Been there, done that.

 

Back during the same sex marriage fight I started a "Fuck For Freedom" campaign in which I donated 10 % of my fee to EQCA (the CA group fighting from same sex marriage) and asked clients to match it. Of course, if all I did is donate a part of my standard fee, that's basically not a client contribution. As it turned out, the additional 10 % some clients donated was what I usually got as a tip, anyway. I was happy. I donated a lot of money to EQCA, and got friends and family to do so as well. It was mainly a gimmick to just promote an issue I felt strongly about, albeit in a weird way. I should also mention I am absolutely paranoid when it comes to politics, and I feared all it would take is some far right group to find my post and allege that this is being pushed by Gay escorts. That would have done more harm than good. Fortunately, I'm just a small little fish, and I had fun raising some money for a good and winning cause.

 

I was also part of the group of escorts that raised money for Rentboy's defense. Kurtis Wolfe was an unsung hero - he was the biggest donor on the Rentboy defense fund site, and if I recall right he donated a percentage of his fees. Speaking of resistance, I still can't believe how much resistance there was to the idea of raising money to defend a website so many people concerned used constantly. People can and did criticize the way they were asked - not what I said, but what others did. But I felt there should have been a spontaneous groundswell of support, and there wasn't.

 

I spoke with one of the lawyers working for Jeffrey at one point to clear what we were doing, and asked him what he thought about the idea of a number of escorts donating part of their fee to the legal defense fund. He checked with his boss and got back to me and discouraged the idea. I completely understand the concern about optics, and listened to what he said. Having said that, I still love the idea. The context would be different if it's not money to defend a particular individual, where you could argue all it does is reinforce certain notions about him. If I were to try it again, I like the idea that this is a broad effort for escorts to use what they are good at to fight back, and also uses fun ways to draw clients in. But you could argue it would still be bad optics.

 

I had specific reasons for joining this debate which are not exactly the same as the OP or Zachary, although I agree with parts of what they are saying. I particularly agree with their characterization of what you can expect a lot of escorts to do to survive FOSTA.

 

I think the LGBTQ community in this century has arguably been THE poster child for bold, compassionate, heartfelt, and effective organizing, and has used their political power to win things that just seem amazing - like the same sex marriage fight. At the same time, the very same community has greeted other efforts with a yawn, and in some cases with what at least feels like open hostility.

 

That's fine. Everybody has a right to their opinions, and their causes. I'm very blunt about mine.

 

My view of reality is that if you don't want to fight, and you don't want to protest, then don't be surprised when things work out in a way you may not like. So let me say again that no part of this thread had to do with political protest. The OP and Zachary painted a picture of a business model, and I think it is a pretty good guess of where many escorts may choose to go with their business. If you took the word I used - "resistance" - to mean some form of political organizing or protest, I apologize. I meant "resistance" more in this context: "The market resisted the large increase in the price of iPhones. Profits to Apple plummeted." I think the points made about supply and demand were right on. FOSTA is designed to cut off access to supply. You may not want to hear it, but some escorts will resist this law by limiting their clients to regulars and charging higher fees. I view that as resistance and survival. Some of you argued that demand will go down as well. You may very well be right. To me all of that is lose/lose, not win/win. But again, even if we just lost big - because we just did - it's better to lose and survive.

 

I like Sunday Zip's idea. A lot. I would love to hear more contributions about whether or how people think it makes sense to unify to fight FOSTA. But this is not the thread or forum to do that. I boldfaced the word "unify" because I said right upfront to the OP, on two different threads in two different ways, that his was not a "unifying" proposal. I actually would characterize it as exactly what you should expect if people don't unify, and entreprenuerial escorts who are cynical about Congress (like most of you are, I suspect) are left to figure out how to resist and survive on their own. I don't blame them for thinking about how to survive. You may not like to hear it, and that's okay. But that's what a lot of escorts are going to do. And if you beat them up for saying it, you are mostly encouraging them to be less candid.

 

My bias should be clear, even if the OP in this case does not share it. It's better to unify and fight than to be divided and be left with figuring out simply how to resist and survive.

Edited April 8, 2018 by stevenkesslar

[+ Tarte Gogo]

In all honesty, I believe the OP and the escort who has now assumed control of the thread could stand to listen to their own advice and take more appealing pictures or go to a gym.

Holy shit, I am pissing myself! ROFLMAO

Edited April 8, 2018 by Tarte Gogo

[+ stevenkesslar]

I very much enjoyed this thread, and thought it was - to understate it - thought provoking. I actually spent much of the day yesterday wondering what I would do if I were a young escort just starting out. (Other than going to the gym more, of course).

 

We're all partly pretending we have crystal balls. So mostly this is speculation and bullshit. But if I base it on my own reality, and go to some of the worse case scenarios, I think Blake and Zachary not only made sense. They didn't go far enough.

 

Here's the bumper sticker theme of this post: "Back To The Future." For me, personally, that actually means back to 2000. Not quite Marty McFly, but close. To paint a realistic picture of one possible future, let me turn to a credible source: the US Dept. of Justice, circa 2018.

 

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/4390361/Views-Ltr-Re-H-R-1865-Allow-States-and-Victims.pdf

 

Here's the part of the letter I'm referring to. DOJ basically is approving of the intent and most of the language of FOSTA, shortly before it passed. They strongly endorse the idea of going after "interactive computer services" that cross state and national lines. Then they say the following, relating to "situations where there is minimal federal interest: such as instances in which an individual person uses a cell phone to manage local commercial sex transactions involving consenting adults."

 

One way you can read this DOJ letter is this. If you want to fly under the federal radar, this is what you should do. And guess what? It's almost exactly what I did the first year I escorted. Would I like to go back to that? No. If forced to, could I survive doing so? Yes.

 

Granted, I wasn't working off a "cell phone," because there weren't iPhones yet. Substitute "laptop." I used to get online in AOL and other chat rooms, and troll clients. It was not an efficient business model. But it worked. There were moderators in chat rooms that noticed my screen name included "escort," and they kicked me out. So I came up with another screen name, and went back in.

 

The other way you can think about it is that sitting at a desk with a laptop was better than standing on a rainy or cold street corner with drug addicts.

 

At some point in my first year, I got a review on this site called "Hooboy." And then another. And another. And I started to develop "regulars." And it was off to the races. In retrospect, I feel lucky that I stumbled into the right place at pretty much the right time. No more chat rooms. The world came to me.

 

So what if all the reviews and all the websites suddenly went away? It would suck. It would definitely be more like my first year, which was harder.

But I actually think it would probably suck more for clients than providers. In a riskier world, would some demand go away? Almost certainly. Would most go away? Almost certainly not. I can count the number of assholes I met on maybe one hand. If the more marginal people went away, to be very blunt it would probably just mean even fewer assholes.

 

This website in particular was an absolute gold mine. It is chock full of kind and sophisticated men, with resources and good taste and good hearts. If this website goes away tomorrow, will all of you go away? Almost certainly not. How would you find me? I don't have a clue. But it wouldn't be rocket science.

 

My business model was always based on a relatively small group of "regulars." The reason to have short appointments with new clients was not to make money. It was to sift through and find good new "regulars." So the idea that in a post-FOSTA world, more escorts would connect with more "regulars" who would pay a premium for having reliable and safe service providers doesn't shock me. I'd argue it's predictable, and almost inevitable.

 

Would local cartels form? Probably. But if I get to use my word, I'm calling them "bedtels." I just checked, and there's about a dozen escorts listed in Portland now, where I was based when I started. Back when I started, there were also about a dozen then, and I knew most of them. One was my best friend. Another worked out at my gym. I quickly got to know the other ones. We shared clients. Sometimes we serviced clients together.

 

Was there sordid collusion? Honestly, yes. That stud who worked out at my gym did me the huge favor of actually plagiarizing the words in my online profile. So I busted him, and used that as an excuse to invite him to my home, where he did me the even huger favor of fucking the shit out of me. (I didn't pay, nor did he. I'm not a prostitute, after all. It was consensual adult Gay sex). Now, in a post-FOSTA world, would we be a little bit more concerned about having each other's backs (no, not literally) and colluding to keep our asses out of the slammer (no! no! not literally!)? I suspect we would. Is that a "cartel?" I dunno. We were just a bunch of young pricks, I guess. But what the OP was talking about in Houston makes sense to me. Smart escorts would likely unite, in some way.

 

I actually feel sorry for all these poor "interactive computer services" DOJ is potentially targeting. Because I don't really think either supply or demand will be stopped. AOL chat rooms may be gone. So now I'd probably just have a website, call myself a "performer," and find whatever places on Instagram or Facebook or some other website got me access to the same great people who found me on escort review websites. And I'm pretty sure those "regulars" would be looking, as well. If I'm reading what DOJ says in the letter above correctly, it doesn't put me at any greater risk. It does put the website at risk.

 

And if you feel like what any escort said so far on this thread is opportunistic or exploitative, just wait. Imagine a world without review websites, without posted rates, where "performers" offer vague services, and there is little or no accountability.

 

My hunch is some clients might prefer that world, because it is more exciting. Most won't. It is also more Cruising, to take it to the extreme. The people who breathe life into websites like this one ain't stupid. So even if the website went away, I'm pretty sure escorts who do their job well would be well connected, and well compensated. (If only I were well hung, then it would be a hat trick!) The more interesting question to me is this: how much trial and error would you have to go through to find good escorts? Rates of course matter. But a lot of other things matter to clients as much or in some cases more. FOSTA will likely increase a desire to avoid risk.

 

In a world like that, I really don't think it's fair to blame Zachary or Blake or other escorts for thinking like businessmen. If you read the words in the DOJ letter, I'd argue it's pretty much what DOJ is actually encouraging them to do. You can call it a "cartel" if you want. Or you can call it getting organized at the local level, and trying to fly under the radar and survive. The cops and moral warriors have more than they can handle already, with real sex traffickers - not to mention any website they might choose to pick on now. Give me my cell phone and escort buddies, thank you, and I'll do just fine.

 

It may sound like I am advocating higher rates. I actually am not. And I most definitely am not advocating higher rates as a "protest." I'm advocating resistance, and survival - however escorts choose to do it. I think I feel the way most people do. What is happening feels wrong, and it breaks my heart. But it is happening, and most people don't have a plan to fight it. So if that is a fair description of reality, I don't begrudge escorts for wanting to plan and resist and survive.

Edited April 8, 2018 by stevenkesslar

[+ stevenkesslar]

The myth and stigma that women don't want sex as much as men do, gives female sex workers greater leverage for higher rates, whereas gay men (stereotypically) can get laid much easier because men always want sex.

 

I've actually always wondered why women get higher rates. There are few if any other job sectors in the US where women make more than men, even when it's the same job. Here, they make a lot more than men, it seems.

 

What this thread really is about is business models, rates, and supply and demand. So what struck me for the first time reading your posts is - duh! - it may have something to do with supply and demand. The demand mostly comes from men, and they mostly want women. While some of them may want men, instead or as well, there are fewer of them. And perhaps given the culture of the Gay community, there are more options for you to find guys, and also more Gay guys who feel comfortable getting paid to provide.

 

You can think whatever you want, I guess. But it's probably at least in part another example of supply and demand at work.

[Guest RBmont-real]

Aaahhh ... more clues. I think it is psychologically inherent that a self-abnegation fetishist relies on the provider to arbitrarily time-titrate session length. Similarly, to turn over self-determination regarding fee structure. So there are enough cuckolds out of 350 million genpop to achieve critical mass for a select few. Not shocked.

 

OK, fine, these sad-sack fellows are economic victims of sexual arousal templates gone amok. Again, relevance-deficient at a broad level in terms of the topic of rate-setting. The ZP catfishing hook is, perhaps, trolling the wrong waters .... UNLESS, maybe always the chance of a lucrative catch. Nothing ventured ...

 

Personally, I never realized until now what good fortune has come my way ... freebie shun-based non-sex. I have to get out more to fitness competitor training venues and events! But shit, I have learned how to occasionally score for 2-figure amounts. Ruined!

[coriolis888]

 

In all honesty, I believe the OP and the escort who has now assumed control of the thread could stand to listen to their own advice and take more appealing pictures or go to a gym.

 

 

"the escort who has now assumed control of the thread"

 

Do you mean the escort who has spent an enormous amount of time writing numerous and long posts in this thread and whose ad says that he is currently in India (or pretending to be in India or some foreign location)?

 

That escort?

 

Then I totally agree about the photos and the gym.

Edited April 9, 2018 by coriolis888

[+ SundayZip]

...

Back during the same sex marriage fight I started a "Fuck For Freedom" campaign in which I donated 10 % of my fee to EQCA (the CA group fighting from same sex marriage) and asked clients to match it.

...

 

Good on you for donating a percentage of your fee and asking clients to match it. As a client, this is an approach that I would respond to. It makes escort and client partners in a common cause.

[+ FreshFluff]

I've actually always wondered why women get higher rates. There are few if any other job sectors in the US where women make more than men, even when it's the same job. Here, they make a lot more than men, it seems.

 

What this thread really is about is business models, rates, and supply and demand. So what struck me for the first time reading your posts is - duh! - it may have something to do with supply and demand. The demand mostly comes from men, and they mostly want women. While some of them may want men, instead or as well, there are fewer of them. And perhaps given the culture of the Gay community, there are more options for you to find guys, and also more Gay guys who feel comfortable getting paid to provide.

 

The main issue is that, all other things being equal, it's harder to get casual sex with a straight woman than a gay man. You're also right that there's less of a stigma attached to being a male provider than a female one.

[+ purplekow]

"My view of reality is that if you don't want to fight, and you don't want to protest, then don't be surprised when things work out in a way you may not like. So let me say again that no part of this thread had to do with political protest." Steven Kesslar

 

When one uses the word resistance when speaking of organizing to fight against the actions of the government, you are being imprecise and confusing if you do not want it to be interpreted as political, no matter if you say it is apolitical. Protest is right there in the same category when it is a protest of actions of the government, After all, it is the government not the clients who are making these laws. So if you are writing for an audience and you wish to convey non political action, it would seem that avoiding charged words such as protest and resistance would make your intention clearer, unless it is your goal to obfuscate your stated intention. I am resistant to the use idea of using a disclaimer and I really do protest your attempts to depoliticize the context of these words. Written words should paint a picture of your thoughts and in your writing using the words protest and resistance paints a picture of a lonely escort shirtless in tight jeans standing in Times Square standing in the way of ongoing police paddy wagons and daring them to run him down. Imagine that photograph might rank up there with this photo

[FTM Zachary Prince]

LOL everyone who hates me because I’m “arrogant”, mixed-race and connected to my culture, and/or not muscular enough, PLEASE feel free to add me to your ignore list. In fact, I encourage it. The ignore function is there for a reason. USE IT!

 

I still have MANY more likes here than posts, so until that changes I’m going to consider my contributions useful to a significant cross-section of the members here. And last I checked it wasn’t against the rules for posting members to spend time in multiple countries. Or maybe its just non-white countries that some of the posters on this forum find it noteworthy to mock people for spending time in??

 

FYI, I already have multiple streams of income and all of them are related to the sex industry. Escorting just happens to be by far the most lucrative for me, the one that I enjoy the most, and the one that I have been doing the longest.

 

Neither whiny entitled clients who are infuriated by rate-raising threads nor sad bored men who have nothing better to do than make negative comments about my body have been included in my target client base for as long as I understood how to have one. Happy ignoring...

[coriolis888]

LOL everyone who hates me because I’m “arrogant”, mixed-race and connected to my culture, and/or not muscular enough, PLEASE feel free to add me to your ignore list.

 

 

hate - definition

verb

to feel intense or passionate dislike for (someone)

_______________________________________

Your post is funny.

 

No one "hates" you, as you stated in the above post.

 

That fact that some posters called you out for coming across as an arrogant know-it-all for the things you posted does not equate to "hate"-

 

Expressing an opinion over someone's arrogant opinion or unusual boasting do not mean "hate" motivated the responses.

 

By the way, I read all the responses to your long and numerous posts. I did not see where anyone discussed your race or color. How did you come up with that erroneous conclusion? Surely, you agree that people of any race or color can be arrogant and can feel they know everything about every subject.

 

Perhaps if you give it some time and read over your posts, you might understand how your posts come off in a negative way and why you got several negative responses.

 

The best of luck to you.

[FTM Zachary Prince]

I spend time in India because I’m Indian. If mocking me for being currently in India doesn’t amount to racism in your opinion, then you don’t understand how racism operates. Unsurprising.

 

I am well aware why my posts came off in a negative way to many of the posters on this thread. Many of their posts came off in a negative way to me as well. Your condescension is unnecessary. I simply do not care.