Raise The Rate 2018 Proposal Letter

[+ José Soplanucas]

[+ FreshFluff]

Studying the female escort industry would prove to you that Veblen services have an extremely strong demand even when their usage is inconspicuous, which is a commentary on human nature that deems your analysis marginally irrelevant. Yes they may be “usually” associated with conspicuous consumption, but that does not preclude their dynamics from applying in the case of escorts. And many clients DO hire escorts in a “conspicuous” manner, for example every client who comments on this board as a poster and every client who has ever written a review online. The reports about hires may be anonymised under an Internet handle/personality, but they are conspicuous nevertheless. BUT typically those who hire high-end escorts are much LESS likely to post on review and discussion boards, contrary to your ideas about conspicuousness being a driving force behind paying a premium for what is assumed to be top-tier service. Typically, what clients expect most seriously when paying a premium rate is flawless professionalism and absolute discretion.

 

There may be a few women escorts who are Veblen goods, but they are a tiny slice of the market. There is fierce competition for the the few finance guys who want to brag about banging $800 per hour female escorts. Clients like this demand more than professionalism and discretion; they demand extremely high quality, meaning escorts who are very young and attractive.

[+ Tarte Gogo]

Typically, what clients expect most seriously when paying a premium rate is flawless professionalism and absolute discretion.

Yeh, but it would not be worth that much money without the know-it-all arrogance that apparently comes with it.

 

If you think my $225 NYC escorts are not flawlessly professional and absolutely discreet, you haven’t met them.

But no, I’ll admit, at that price, I don’t get to experience that much arrogance, so you win the debate.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Tarte Gogo

[FTM Zachary Prince]

$350 hotels differ from $150 on factors other than price. The $350 hotels typically offer a better location, better service, larger or better appointed rooms.

 

Sure, and you can make the same argument about $500 escorts vs $200 escorts. The $500 option will typically offer a better location, more personalised & experienced service, have wider availability in his schedule, and practice a higher level of overall professionalism.

 

With both examples (hotels & escorts), there are lots of exceptions. I’ve toured almost every major city in the USA and stayed in a variety of different hotels in the same areas of the same cities for years, and there are lots of $150 hotels that equal the $350 options in location, service, and room size/quality. Sometimes they are even owned by the same owners and literally the only difference is the branding. Some $150 hotels are superior to the comparable $350 options and will also offer free wifi, breakfast, and bottled water, which would cost you an extra $60 per day at those $350 hotels. Why do people continue to book the more expensive hotels when cheaper options are available with comparable location, rooms, and service? Well... some people simply IDENTIFY as the type of person who stays at a WESTIN rather than a HAMPTON INN. Even if they’re not posting any photos of their hotel room on Facebook or name-dropping it to their business contacts.

 

And similarly there are $200 escorts that out-perform $500 escorts in various areas of critical importance to clients. It’s not that escorts with higher rates are inherently more talented or more professional, but we often can be, especially because our clients expect us to be and we wouldn’t last long in the industry with such high rates if we weren’t doing something special.

[FTM Zachary Prince]

There may be a few women escorts who are Veblen goods, but they are a tiny slice of the market. There is fierce competition for the the few finance guys who want to brag about banging $800 per hour female escorts. Clients like this demand more than professionalism and discretion; they demand extremely high quality, meaning escorts who are very young and attractive.

 

Unfortunately you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve studied the market and you obviously haven’t. I’ve also literally trained newbie escorts into this market from scratch. I am intimately familiar with this market in a way that you are not. You are right about one point tho: clients like this do demand a high quality experience. You are VERY wrong to assume that means the escorts must be “young and attractive”. All escorts must be some degree of attractive to be successful, but “extremely high quality” level attractiveness is not necessary to succeed on the $800 per hour level. Nor youth.

Edited April 7, 2018 by FTM Zachary Prince

[FTM Zachary Prince]

If you think my $225 NYC escorts are not flawlessly professional and absolutely discreet, you haven’t met them.

But no, I’ll admit, at that price, I don’t get to experience that much arrogance, so you win the debate.

 

Amazing how you can literally put words and ideas in my mouth that I never expressed. I said that CLIENTS expect flawless professionalism and absolute discretion when they book escorts who charge a premium. What type of logic are you employing that leads you to interpret that as me saying that your $225 escorts are not flawlessly professional and absolutely discreet? If you even bothered to read the context for my comment, it was to establish that CONSPICUOUS consumption is not a primary motivating factor for consumption of Veblen services within the sex industry. Usually quite the opposite: discretion is.

[MiamiLooker]

I just have to say, for someone who purports to be 23 years old, you seem to have such awesome marketing skills and knowledge.

You're kidding, right?

[FTM Zachary Prince]

I'm curious, since it has been mentioned here before, do they also require full disclosure of client identity to facilitate background checks? Not saying they are wrong to do so, I have no experience on the straight side. It was just a bit of a surprise to hear this as standard practice.

 

Yes, almost all of them do. It is industry standard. Not to necessarily conduct “background checks”, but they have their own private verification networks and procedures, plus the mere possession of someone’s identity is a form of protection in and of itself. For example, there is an ability to file a court order against someone whose name you possess. So there is more of a focus on confirming that the client legitimately is who he says he is, and that he hasn’t already been reported as a dangerous client, than in running a full background check. If he is allowed to book under an alias, he could be dodging previous reports of dangerous behaviour toward other escorts. But every escort’s procedures may vary. Most feel safer just knowing that they have the client’s identity and find that their clients are less likely to behave in ridiculously inappropriate ways when he doesn’t feel anonymous. Some do allow clients to book anonymously (using a reputable forum handle or email address) by checking references from other escorts who the client has met. That’s also a standard practice and may be employed instead of or in addition to verifying a client’s identity. Doesn’t seem like gay escorts have much of a reference-sharing practice as far as I can tell? Or maybe only privately among friend groups.

[+ FreshFluff]

Amazing how you can literally put words and ideas in my mouth that I never expressed. I said that CLIENTS expect flawless professionalism and absolute discretion when they book escorts who charge a premium. What type of logic are you employing that leads you to interpret that as me saying that your $225 escorts are not flawlessly professional and absolutely discreet? If you even bothered to read the context for my comment, it was to establish that CONSPICUOUS consumption is not a primary motivating factor for consumption of Veblen services within the sex industry. Usually quite the opposite: discretion is.

 

I'm sure that discretion is important, but that alone will not make an escort into a "Veblen service" whose demand will go up when he charges more. Other factors need to be there.

 

 

Unfortunately you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve studied the market and you obviously haven’t. I’ve also literally trained newbie escorts into this market from scratch. I am intimately familiar with this market in a way that you are not. You are right about one point tho: clients like this do demand a high quality experience. You are very VERY wrong to assume that means the escorts must be “young and attractive”. All escorts must be some degree of attractive to be successful, but “extremely high quality” level attractiveness is not necessary to succeed on the $800 per hour level. Nor youth.

 

You say I don't know what I'm talking about, but you offer no evidence.

 

I'm sure any escort can find someone who will pay $800 an hour at some point in their career. Being able to consistently commanding such a rate is very different. Many escorts would like to charge that rate, but the market can only support very few escorts who do. What training do you offer to facilitate such a rate? In your OP, you suggest better pictures and self care (both of which many escorts spend a lot of time on already). You also suggest social media and a blog, but you yourself say that high end clients want discretion. Wouldn't such a client a be wary of those who are too prominent online?

[+ Tarte Gogo]

Amazing how you can literally put words and ideas in my mouth that I never expressed. I said that CLIENTS expect flawless professionalism and absolute discretion when they book escorts who charge a premium. What type of logic are you employing that leads you to interpret that as me saying that your $225 escorts are not flawlessly professional and absolutely discreet? If you even bothered to read the context for my comment, it was to establish that CONSPICUOUS consumption is not a primary motivating factor for consumption of Veblen services within the sex industry. Usually quite the opposite: discretion is.

Yeah, you see, I don’t have 6 hours to read all your very, very long know-it-all posts, so I am just going to ignore you now, but please continue to appear as arrogant as you like in front of hundreds of potential clients on this forum, not a problem for me.

[biggerbilly]

I'm curious to know what better and more reliable service is provided by guys who charge $500 are more. It's been my observation from this site that guys at this rate flake out just as much as those at the lower rates. I from the few high rate ads I remember seeing, these guys tend to have more caveats in addition to those price. I remember a guy who went back and forth between $500 to $1000 an hour. You were required to provide him dinner at a nice restaurant or show, and that no action was guaranteed. And I'm not talking about a "you are paying for time only" type description. He was almost guaranteeing that no action was going top happen, guaranteed!

[MiamiLooker]

In your OP, you suggest better pictures and self care (both of which many escorts spend a lot of time on already). You also suggest social media and a blog, but you yourself say that high end clients want discretion. Wouldn't such a client a be wary of those who are too prominent online?

FF, FTM isn't the OP of this thread.

[FTM Zachary Prince]

You say I don't know what I'm talking about but offer no evidence.

 

I'm sure any escort can find someone who will pay $800 an hour at some point in their career. Being able to consistently commanding such a rate is very different. Many escorts would like to charge that rate, but the market can only support very few escorts who do. What training do you offer to facilitate such a rate? In your OP, you suggest better pictures and self care (both of which many escorts spend a lot of time on already). You also suggest social media and a blog, but you yourself say that high end clients want discretion. Wouldn't such a client a be wary of those who are too prominent online?

 

OK, first of all, just to clue you in, the OP is not mine. I agree with some aspects of it and disagree with other aspects, which I’ve explained in my earlier comments.

 

I’m not going to offer “evidence” that I’ve taught a business model that has allowed some people to command $800 an hour consistently. But I have. If you don’t believe me, so be it. That’s your prerogative.

[+ oldNbusted]

Yes, almost all of them do. It is industry standard. Not to necessarily conduct “background checks”, but they have their own private verification networks and procedures, plus the mere possession of someone’s identity is a form of protection in and of itself. For example, there is an ability to file a court order against someone whose name you possess. So there is more of a focus on confirming that the client legitimately is who he says he is, and that he hasn’t already been reported as a dangerous client, than in running a full background check. If he is allowed to book under an alias, he could be dodging previous reports of dangerous behaviour toward other escorts. But every escort’s procedures may vary. Most feel safer just knowing that they have the client’s identity and find that their clients are less likely to behave in ridiculously inappropriate ways when he doesn’t feel anonymous. Some do allow clients to book anonymously (using a reputable forum handle or email address) by checking references from other escorts who the client has met. That’s also a standard practice and may be employed instead of or in addition to verifying a client’s identity. Doesn’t seem like gay escorts have much of a reference-sharing practice as far as I can tell? Or maybe only privately among friend groups.

 

It's all very eye-opening. For me, my RM reviews are visible in my profile and I did that deliberately, assuming that new providers I contacted would reach out to the providers I reviewed. No idea if that's ever happened. But that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

[FTM Zachary Prince]

I remember a guy who went back and forth between $500 to $1000 an hour. You were required to provide him dinner at a nice restaurant or show, and that no action was guaranteed. And I'm not talking about a "you are paying for time only" type description. He was almost guaranteeing that no action was going top happen, guaranteed!

 

Sounds kinky!

[FTM Zachary Prince]

It's all very eye-opening. For me, my RM reviews are visible in my profile and I did that deliberately, assuming that new providers I contacted would reach out to the providers I reviewed. No idea if that's ever happened. But that's about as far as I'm willing to go.

 

Yeah, women who escort face a lot of extra danger, so it’s been necessary for the industry to develop these practices to make things safer & more sustainable. I’m not really willing to give up my screening practices yet, but I’m trying to understand how to adapt them to the gay escort world to make my services more accessible to people who aren’t comfortable providing me their legal identity. I’m transgender and my legal name is a real nightmare for me; I would be too turned off to ever give it to a provider if I hired, so I have a certain level of sympathy for clients who don’t feel comfortable giving theirs, even if the circumstances are different. I happily accept references in lieu of legal identity, but I’ve been curious whether gay escorts even exchange references or if trying to ask for them would be perceived as competition & a lost cause to pursue. Will probably start a thread about that sometime.

[+ FreshFluff]

FF, FTM isn't the OP of this thread.

 

Noted, thanks. Looks like I got too engaged in the debate.

[biggerbilly]

Sounds kinky!

I'm pretty sure it didn't work out for him. He got bad reviews, and lowered his price down to $200. Only appearing on A4A at the end, and completely disappearing.

[+ Lance_Navarro]

I'm curious, since it has been mentioned here before, do they also require full disclosure of client identity to facilitate background checks? Not saying they are wrong to do so, I have no experience on the straight side. It was just a bit of a surprise to hear this as standard practice.

 

Yeah, most of them go through a fairly rigorous background check. They can either get vouched for by other escorts that they've seen, or provide social media accounts as verification. I'm sure there are other ways, and most require deposit too.

[FTM Zachary Prince]

I'm pretty sure it didn't work out for him. He got bad reviews, and lowered his price down to $200. Only appearing on A4A at the end, and completely disappearing.

 

I can definitely see why that approach wouldn’t work... unless it was literally being marketed as some kind of kinky cuckolding experience. Cuz those guys are out there and actually DO enjoy paying to be denied service. A niche offering for sure. Maybe he should have tried on FetLife???

[biggerbilly]

I can definitely see why that approach wouldn’t work... unless it was literally being marketed as some kind of kinky cuckolding experience. Cuz those guys are out there and actually DO enjoy paying to be denied service. A niche offering for sure. Maybe he should have tried on FetLife???

I can see someone supplementing their income doing this, but I cannot see this being a great source of reliable income. While those guys are out there, they're not that many. Hence the word 'niche'.

[+ DERRIK]

Hmm. Wasn’t it Michelle Obama who said

 

“When they go lower -we go higher “

 

[Guest RBmont-real]

Outlier situations (ie, hovering at 4-figure rates) are plausible but not relatable to most men who hire men. The breadth of this thread far exceeds the proportional relevance in the context of this board's readership and realities generally not rooted in Lalaland. But it was fun up until the proverbial snake swallowed its tail, eventually right up the entire track, disappearing ... pooft.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Mr. Kesslar you speak of raising rates as a form of resistance. I think lowering rates would be a bigger form of resistance. A token sum to attract more and more people and show that we do not fuck for principle but priniciples. We are not going away and we are not giving it away.

 

As always, PK, I am at your service, and happy to oblige. I absolutely commit to you that I will see to it that most escorts lower their rates. There's just one simple thing I'd like you to do for me, okay? Get Congress to decriminalize. Can you do that, please? Because that's the best way to lower rates.

 

Okay, if Tarte Gogo can have fun and go to rhetorical flourishes, I'm figuring I can, too. I hope that maybe what comes out of this, eventually, is a more informed debate than the one Congress just had.

 

Mostly what I'm for is multi-faceted resistance. I'm glad this is being debated. And my main rhetorical question for everyone to think about is this: if you don't like this idea of resisting, fine. So what method of resistance are you for?

 

I do think this proposal is a valid form of resistance. And just to clarify, part of what I mean by resistance is what people will do to survive. If you believe in supply and demand, which most of us seem to, FOSTA is more likely to drive rates up, not down. Again, I think that's just supply and demand.

 

By going after unspecified websites, Congress immediately put an artificial (or maybe it's better to say "legal") constraint on supply. It did nothing to change demand. It also increased risk. I think Fresh Fluff's point about a "cartel" is a good way to think about it. In the long run, she's probably right that cartels don't tend to work. But in order to work - think OPEC - it helps if you can put an immediate and serious constraint on supply - even if it is a politically manufactured one. That's what Congress actually just did.

 

Remember that. Escorts didn't do it. Congress did. Right now websites that offer supply are dropping like flies. Case in point. Out of curiosity, I clicked on Zachary's hyperlinks. If you click on TER Reviews, you get this:

 

https://www.theeroticreview.com/FOSTA.asp

 

Oops!

 

To make it even more complicated, what I just about supply and demand may not be quite right. Because by increasing risk, maybe Congress did actually decrease demand, as well. That remains to be seen. Several people in this thread have said, "Screw you then. I'm taking my testicles and going home." I think in part it really depends on what law enforcement does. Maybe we're about to see an aggressive war on any website that seems to have anything to do with sex. Because we all know that if there is sex, there could be sex trafficking!

 

I can speak for myself on this one. I got into this right when the internet (and Hooboy's site) was taking off. So in that sense, I was just very lucky. I spent close to $0 on websites or ads, because I let reviews on this website - which were free - speak for me. If I'd had to operate out of bars, street corners, or other venues, I probably would have said, "Fuck it." Over a long period of time, my assessment of personal legal risk in this area was somewhere between zero to minimal. If I had viewed the legal risk as being significant, I might have just stayed out of the game. Or I may have done exactly what this thread is talking about - the "less is more" strategy. I don't really know - it's all speculation, so it's all bullshit. But I'm pretty sure the basic point about supply and demand is right. If you reduce supply and increase risk, it's likely to drive rates up, not down. Maybe I'm wrong. But we'll all get an opportunity to see.

 

I actually can think of one real world example of just how far this could go. I was never hired by a Saudi sheikh. But I was friends with a couple of escorts who were. It's an absurd example, but is is actually real. You have huge religious and legal constraints on supply - to the point where Plan A is to leave the country to get access to supply. I knew one escort who had a regular who flew into the US under the pretense of going to a weight loss camp. That's moving to the Trump extreme of supply and demand: money just really wasn't an object. At the extreme, that's what happens when you say it's punishable by things like public flogging, or death.

 

My best guess is that decriminalizing would have the opposite effect. If you want to reduce rates, PK, I think that's our lobbying ticket.

 

When the Rentboy thing happened, I spent a lot of time reading article after article about how things work in countries that have decriminalized. My impression is that it generally led to a big increase in supply. I'm going to go toward the more extreme examples, just to make the point. It's as if sex trafficking was legalized. I read story after story about how poor women from Africa or Eastern Europe were being brought in to legal brothels. In some articles, allegations were made that even though it was legal, it was against their will. Like their pimps were connected to criminals back home who could say if they ran away, or didn't comply, their families would suffer. Honestly, I assume at least half of what I read was bullshit, made up or exaggerated by cops or moral warriors.

 

If you want a quick review of the alleged upsides and downsides of legal prostitution in Germany, here's a good link. It's worth noting that even though prostitution has been legal there since 2002, the law was changed last July to fight sex trafficking, which is still perceived as a big problem in Germany.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Germany#Legislative_reform_(2002)

 

The basic picture that seemed very clear was that decriminalizing tends to make things abundant, accessible, and cheap. That makes sense. It's happening with pot in California right now. If we did the same thing with "recreational" prostitution, I have every reason to think it would play out the same. Although we sure don't have to worry about that right now, do we? We're clearly headed in the opposite direction, full speed ahead.

 

Whatever Congress thinks they know about sex trafficking, it's far from clear that they know much about prostitution. All you have to do is read Congressional reports that equate hiring "prostitutes" with sex trafficking, and you can figure that out pretty quick. By that standard, I think we pretty much know that the President of the United States is himself a sex trafficker. Go figure.

 

I'm not sure I buy what Sen. Wyden said, that Congress will "regret" this vote. I think it's more reasonable to think that at some point - like in several years - they will clean the bill up.

 

In the mean time, I'm not at all surprised that escorts are thinking along the lines of the proposal this thread started with. And the negative reaction doesn't surprise me, either. If I were to be critical, I'd say we all fucked up last year by not storming the Capitol. But I'm a realist, and there's no way that was ever going to happen. And even if it did, it's far from clear that would have stopped the bill from passing.

 

If you don't think the reality is that there are going to be a lot of new constraints on supply, you're kidding yourselves. That's exactly what FOSTA is intended to do. And if you don't think that is somehow going to have an effect on price, you're probably kidding yourselves, too. I'll say it one more time just so my meaning is clear: that depends a lot on how aggressive enforcement of the law is. Fortunately, I don't think we have to worry about becoming just like Saudi Arabia. This won't become a hobby beyond the reach of anyone other than rich and powerful sheihks.

 

I stand by my basic argument, though. I wasn't arguing this is the best way to resist FOSTA. I could go with PK's line, and argue that the best way to resist is decriminalize. If we're talking about supply and demand, that's what seems most likely to increase supply and reduce rates.

 

Obviously, we're not headed to decriminalization anytime soon. Given the way we are headed, it makes complete sense to me that escorts are considering a "less is more" strategy of resistance - meaning raising rates and having fewer clients. I'm no expert, but it strikes me as the exact opposite of what's happening in Germany. And in both cases it's following the laws of supply and demand. And if you don't like it, I'd suggest you place the blame on the politicians who just made it that way.

 

The other thing I intended to say, and will say again, is that I love the fact that there's already organized efforts starting on how to resist. As much as I'd personally prefer to see it happen the way the kids in Florida are doing it - like let's get 100,000 or so people to DC next month - somehow I don't see that happening.

 

I think I can also say from personal experience that when it comes to overt resistance, there is no reason yet to think that anyone is going to get a lot of support. I actually was surprised how many regular Rentboy users were silent when Rentboy was thrown under the bus. And to be clear, I'm not judging that reaction. I'm simply stating it as a fact. I had a lot of discussions with people I'm very close to about how they felt. Most people felt there were plenty of other websites, and it just wasn't worth the fight. If FOSTA now means most of those websites go away, it might lead more people to rethink whether resistance makes sense. But that remains to be seen. It is very early days.

 

At this point, the main think I feel I know is that I am in favor of is resistance, plain and simple.

[MikeyGMin]

not relatable to most men who hire men.

The fly in the ointment from the very beginning. The OP seems to be involved with, and influenced by, female providers. (Based on previous posts and a statement about $500 per hour for a low-end escort. Maybe a female one, but we all know better when it comes to males.) I have no idea where this is going to go, but I'm fairly confident that gay men will never adopt the hetrosexual male client model.