A naive question about up-sells

[+ keroscenefire]

On 10/29/2024 at 1:48 PM, Jamie21 said:

I never upsell. I think it’s bad practice to do so, especially during the massage. I think you agree the content and the rate beforehand and stick to it. Offering an upsell mid massage is taking advantage of someone when they probably aren’t able or willing to decline it. If someone asks for more services mid massage (and it’s something I’d usually charge extra for, such as to bottom) then I usually suggest they book that for next visit. 

This is absolutely what should happen from both client and provider. I never ask for upsells as a client either (though if something happens naturally then that's fine). But I have been really into a good masseur and after the session I might say, "Hey I really enjoyed the massage and definitely will come back for that but was curious if you add anything extra for a bit more money?" 

[polythome]

I got upsold a few times when getting massages but I usually say no. Once, in Greece though, it lead to a particularly hot session. I signed up for a classic "deep tissue" in-call session in a gay-advertised massage studio (but picking the cutest masseur, of course). After the flip, and towards the last 15mins, he tried to upsell me — and honestly, with his technique (one of the better massages I had), I almost said yes. However, I had a date afterwards and I was "saving it" and I really just wanted to relax. The guy barely spoke English but his eyes and hands communicated enough.

A few days later, my mind kept coming back to it so I booked another massage session - this time an "erotic massage" and once we got to the room, I told him that I want the "extra" options. Eventually, the terms were laid out: he was "top" - no kissing, no 69 but I can suck him off. What happened after, imo, can barely considered as "massage" as he then dropped trou and unveiled what I'd like to call a "Brazilian big" dick and proceeded to soft dominate me. His mild sweet demeanor from our previous session transformed into a mild dom style as we proceeded to soft choke me with his dick and he tried to stick it in places, slapped me, etc. There was no massaging at all, just us going back and forth to me sucking him and him putting it in places and using his mouth on places. It was intense. He came in my mouth, I came in his hand. Easily a Top 5 session.

I'm looking forward to coming back to Greece; hopefully he's still working at the same shop. 😉

Edited November 10, 2024 by polythome

[marylander1940]

On 10/31/2024 at 3:31 PM, pubic_assistance said:

Perhaps.

I have a different viewpoint.

You're there for a MASSAGE.  If you haven't discussed anything other than a massage it's reasonable once you're rock hard, cock dripping for them to ask " you want me to finish you ? "

If you already agreed to a Happy Ending and the provider starts offering blowjobs or more...than yeah..that's a buzz kill..but I don't just assume an ejaculation is included in my price.

Thank you for constantly bringing up common sense to this forum!

[Trick]

No disrespect to masseurs offering only Therapeutic massages on MF and RMasseur, but for me, hiring from those sites provides a gateway to “upgraded” services.  It’s a “will he or will he not” game. I respect boundaries regardless.  If he upsells and I like him, I’ll go for it. If not, I’ll enjoy the massage.

What I dislike is a provider who advertises as a masseur and has nothing on his mind but upselling. He should just advertise as an escort.

[+ KensingtonHomo]

On 11/4/2024 at 8:14 PM, nycman said:

Surprise "money up front" demands and mid-massage up sells are both dick killers. 

Yup. I never repeat with a guy who does that. What I do if they offer erotic is ask up front what that includes. And as others have said, if it goes beyond that or the experience is really good, we tip well. 

[pubic_assistance]

59 minutes ago, Trick said:

What I dislike is a provider who advertises as a masseur and has nothing on his mind but upselling. He should just advertise as an escort.

I do genuinely like a good massage. So what I do to weed-out weak providers is to avoid hiring anyone who doesn't check "therapeutic" on their Rentmasseur profile. Obviously not a perfect system but in my estimation, weeds out at least a third of the losers.

On the subject of the "upsell"...I have a policy of never discussing sexual services in writing. So my time with a masseur is about letting them do their thing. I ask for a mix of therapeutic and erotic and accept what's given for the price agreed.

Now...when it comes to any sexual services....I'm a guy....so I'm not gonna say no to a blow job. I didn't hire the provider for a blowjob...but here I am cock out / throbbing with excitement. If I enjoy the company I'm in and I'm offered oral sex, I am not offended if he expects to be PAID.

I'm NOT on a "date"...he's not blowing me because he likes me.

To me it's all about HOW the upsell is presented...not IF it's presented.

Edited November 10, 2024 by pubic_assistance
spelling

[Bokomaru]

39 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

I'm NOT on a "date"...he's not blowing me because he likes me.

Agree, on the first point. 
On the second point … well … in your case, I’m not so sure. 😝 

[Boaxxx]

I only had it happen to me once and it was during a four hand massage. The massage was really good and half way through one of the guys asked it I wanted to have sex. Naively I said yes and he quickly responded that it would be an additional $200. At that point I declined. It also made me wonder just how much cash did he think I had on me. 

Edited November 11, 2024 by Boaxxx

[+ keroscenefire]

11 hours ago, Boaxxx said:

 Naively I said yes and he quickly responded that it would be an additional $200. At that point I declined. It also made me wonder just how much cash did he think I had on me. 

This is why I typically don't bring much extra cash as a client for masseurs or escorts. I usually bring maybe $20-$50 more just as a tip but nothing more than that so I can honestly say I don't have the money for the upsell. And though it's never happened to me, if there was some kind of robbery type thing, at least I only lose the money I was expecting to use anyway.

Typically for my first visit especially I don't bring much more than what we agreed to for the donation. 

Edited November 12, 2024 by keroscenefire

[pubic_assistance]

5 hours ago, Boaxxx said:

....during a four hand massage....one of the guys asked it I wanted to have sex. Naively I said yes and he quickly responded that it would be an additional $200.

Was that an offer to have sex with BOTH of them ? If so...$200 seems perfectly reasonable to me.

(Although I DO agree with your comment about that much extra necessarily being in your wallet ).

 

[Boaxxx]

56 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Was that an offer to have sex with BOTH of them ? If so...$200 seems perfectly reasonable to me.

(Although I DO agree with your comment about that much extra necessarily being in your wallet ).

 

I assumed for both but didn't ask since I didn't have extra cash stuffed in my wallet. And I agree that would have been a good deal if it was for both but details were never discussed.

[DFdub]

I am intrigued by the juxtaposition of members who are both: (a) commenting here that upselling by providers mid-massage is tacky/weird but potentially reasonable or just inconvenient; while also (b) commenting with emotionally charged language in Hiring Day Laborers that even asking day laborers if they are willing to do sex work is inherently exploitative/immoral/despicable.

Wondering how the scenarios are materially different from a power imbalance perspective but are not regarded as equal offenses.

Provider advertises massage and not additional services. Let's assume Client finds provider sexy (why else hire?) so likely Provider more physically attractive in some way/in desired shape for Client preference - thus creating a power imbalance tilted to the Provider. In the middle of service, Provider offers additional options for an upsell to the Client. Client may now be in a compromised position and Provider likely hopes that Client has diminished decision-making capacity - even more power imbalance for Provider. That's why only offered mid-service, after all. And yet, not considered exploitative or predatory or beyond wrong - just icky or a buzz kill. Provider waiting for Client to be most vulnerable to offer something Client might not normally do by asking him if he wants more at a vulnerable moment.

Client sees a day laborer looking for work. Client says, "Hey, you're cute. Want to spend an hour in my hotel for $300?" Day laborer who may be in a compromised financial position chooses to say "yes" or "no" based on his comfort level and situation. That sounds like substantially the same scenario, but is somehow egregiously exploitative (as if hiring young guys with RM ads who does not enjoy it but this ended up the best work he can get, or hiring immigrant providers in same financial situation but an ad is somehow not exploitative using the same scale).

Taking advantage of people who are not poor while they are sexually aroused and might not be otherwise comfortable spending as much money is a substantially similar action. What if the Client on the table cannot resist the hot Provider and agrees to give his last $200 for the week?

I absolutely agree that propositioning day laborers seems tacky. And so do upsells mid-service. In neither case do I think giving an adult man a choice is inherently exploitative or coercive. But if it is, I struggle with why it is not for both scenarios where a power imbalance of some sort that might lead a person to make a decision they would not otherwise. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[pubic_assistance]

5 hours ago, DFdub said:

I struggle with why it is not for both scenarios where a power imbalance of some sort that might lead a person to make a decision they would not otherwise. 🤷🏻‍♂️

The power of the client provides a choice for indulgence. The power of the desperate day laborer provides a choice for survival.

[+ ThroatCummer]

How did we get to hiring day laborers for sex? lol 

In many parts of the world, it's a simple math equation: I need a service. You can provide a service. That can be labor with a hammer or labor in bed. 

Ya'll need to get outside the USA and chill. My mind immediately goes to Rio de Janeiro. It's more normal than you think. Every hot guy, gay or straight, walking around Rio knows they can make money off of an American to do whatever they want just like buying a cup of coffee.

But I digress and do not recommend doing that in the Home Depot parking lot.  

Edited November 16, 2024 by ThroatCummer

[buttlvr99]

I just had a massage a week ago. I asked for an erotic massage which the provider said included MT and HE. I usually only bring in cash what the agreed on fee is. I don’t like carrying more cash in the city than I need to. 
Anyway everything was going fine and we got to the MT and He part where I was feeling his ass. I asked if I could lick it during the HE and he said yes for $80 more. And then he also offered full sex for $200 more. I declined on both. 
 

I guess the lesson learned is you have to spell out in advance each detail of what you want even if you’re not sure how the session will go and negotiate a price during the setup of the appointment.

[+ Jamie21]

10 hours ago, buttlvr99 said:

I asked if I could lick it during the HE and he said yes for $80 more. And then he also offered full sex for $200 more. I declined on both. 

And that would kill the energy in the session. It’s why I never offer up sells. If a client wants to lick my ass during the session they can, for me it’s part of the massage (if they want it) and included in the price. To suddenly throw in a fee for that mid session is bad service. I think the fee agreed at the start should be inclusive of everything you’re prepared to include.

Clients sometimes ask for full sex and if I’m not prepared to do it then I just gently decline. A few times they initiate the offer of more payment but it’s still a no. That’s not because of any  issues about selling sex, I do sex work: my ass and cock are for sale 😂, but because I’ve set the boundaries in my head before the start. If you have a loose approach to what you’ll do in a session at any time, whether or not money is involved, then things can get out of hand. Discipline is important (I do that kind of massage session too 😉). 

[pubic_assistance]

9 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

To suddenly throw in a fee for that mid session is bad service.

If I relate it to my own business, I can't tell you the number of times I've had clients ask my crew to do something additional "since they are already there".

We always BILL the CLIENT for the EXTRA services. There IS no "while your already here".

I would expect nothing less from the people who I hire. Whether they are remodeling my bathroom or sucking my dick.

I do agree that if you hire an escort for sex, then menu items seem tacky. But if you hire a masseur and ask for sex, then you should PAY for the "upgrade".

Edited November 17, 2024 by pubic_assistance
grammar

[+ Jamie21]

It’s nothing to do with what the client is prepared to pay for. The masseur is in charge of what he includes in the service and what the price is and when in the interaction that is discussed. The client chooses to accept that when they book. My view is you (as in the provider) make that decision when you set your rate and describe your services. If you’re offering massage and sex describe it as that and charge for it (legalities noted). It’s not appropriate to introduce an additional service for an additional fee during the session, in my opinion. It detracts from the ambiance and breaks the spell to remind the client of the transactional nature of things at the least appropriate time. 

[DFdub]

On 11/16/2024 at 6:38 AM, pubic_assistance said:

The power of the client provides a choice for indulgence. The power of the desperate day laborer provides a choice for survival.

It would seem awfully elitist / white savior complex of us to assume all day laborers are one paid blowjob away from losing survival and that we must protect their virtue because they can't themselves. Or, that day laborers would not be capable of choice when posed with ... the offer of a choice.

My brother-in-law worked as a day laborer occasionally for a couple years back in the housing bust to make ends meet because the contractors for whom he did construction jobs (1099-based) didn't have enough regular work. A coworker's deadbeat ex-husband worked exclusively as a day laborer to avoid wage garnishment for back child support. But they're both white and American so did they still have a choice? 🤔 I'm not sure how that fits into any day laborer stereotype assumptions.

Getting back to upsells though - I tend to doubt all clients are self-indulgent hedonists with too much spare cash. I mean, guilty here 🤣 but still. There are lots of clients that are socially awkward or physically unattractive, etc that would be just as unable to decline rationally if encountering a dominant, sexy hot provider aggressively upselling. Imagine someone who saves to hire twice a year desperately seeking physical contact and blinded by passion who forks over his utility money caught in the moment.

I'm just saying that we should avoid inserting our biases vs being open to possibilities. Not all clients are privileged. Not all day laborers are victims of society who need saving. Not all providers are desperately forced into this work (which is what that implies). Not all hiring events put the client in the position of power.

[Ethan Woods]

I never upsell during the session. I offer all options during the initial quote, unfortunately most clients don’t indicate what they’re looking for or think there’s going to be some kind of menu to choose from.

always remember it’s illegal to offer sexual services in exchange for money

[Ethan Woods]

On 10/31/2024 at 3:31 PM, pubic_assistance said:Perhaps.

I have a different viewpoint.

You're there for a MASSAGE.  If you haven't discussed anything other than a massage it's reasonable once you're rock hard, cock dripping for them to ask " you want me to finish you ? "

If you already agreed to a Happy Ending and the provider starts offering blowjobs or more...than yeah..that's a buzz kill..but I don't just assume an ejaculation is included in my price.

If you’re booking an erotic massage why would you assume release by hand is extra? are they really out here charging extra for that? I must boot be charging enough…

[pubic_assistance]

4 hours ago, Ethan Woods said:

If you’re booking an erotic massage why would you assume release by hand is extra?

Because an erotic massage is still technically just a massage, unless you specifically ask for "full release". Now ..i do agree....most of the time it's included ..so you might expect it...but i never ask about the details. I dont like to micromanage and I've hired guys for an erotic session who were under the impression that by getting naked and rubbing my asshole to get me hard...THAT was "erotic". Anything more was extra.

We can spend all day trying to come up with a defniton and many threads have tried but there is no regulatory body that controls how this business is conducted. So its always different from person to person.

Edited November 20, 2024 by pubic_assistance
spelling

[Ali Gator]

The bottom line is: When you're booking an appointment with a new masseur, ASK what the price includes. I always do so there is no confusion or conflict once the appointment begins. I always opt for an erotic massage, because I want to engage in mutual touch and I want a HE (through my experience over the past 20+  years, those are not included in 'sensual').  So when booking, I ask upfront via text:  "Are we both nude during the appointment ? Is mutual touching allowed during the session ? Do I get a HE included ? " If the answer to all three is 'yes', then I book. If the answers are vague (sometimes, not often) such as 'We'll see where the session takes us...' or 'I like to focus on the energy between us...' or some BS, I thank them for their time, and move on. 

Once I book, the masseur follows through with what was promised. On one occasion, where the guy didn't allow MT or HE, I went along with him but pulled out the text exchange and showed him when it came time to pay. He feigned 'No understand English well' and I reminded him that his English was fine during the session when we were chatting and he understood very well. I then offered him pay for a sensual massage since he didn't provide erotic as we agreed on. THAT he understood perfectly.  He asked me to get back on the table, and we ended up having about 30 minutes extra of 'fun' - and he got paid for erotic. Happy ending indeed.

 

As for upselling, the very first time it happened to me was about 25 years ago when I was in NYC on business, and found a masseur (through a back-page ad, as there were no iPhones, no sites such as this) in HK. I remember this like it was yesterday.

The guy's name was 'Mark' and I lucked out - beautiful shoulder length jet black hair, dark eyes, sexy smile and a muscled body (I believe he said he was Samoan). Beautiful guy. He offered only sensual massage or erotic, so I went with sensual not knowing the difference between the two but it was about $100 cheaper (I was still very new to this). He massaged in a black bikini brief, and kept rubbing my ass getting me aroused. Overall, the massage was good but I couldn't relax - I was nervous just looking at his beautiful VPL, six pack and chest (he kept telling me to relax). When he flipped me over, he lowered his bikini brief to show me his semi-aroused dick, and he raised my arms upward to massage and suggested I feel his chest 'for me to relax', which only aroused me more. At this point on my back, I'm rock hard and he starts fondling my dick but not jerking me off. He tells me he has a bed available in the other room if I want to 'get the best fuck of my life'. I asked him how much that would be and he said, 'Not much - just another $250.' I thanked him and said, 'Maybe next time I see you'. He almost had another easy $250 in his pocket. I left with blue balls, and couldn't wait to get to my hotel room to finish off.  I did call him again when I returned to NYC a few months later, but his phone was disconnected.