Any of you still masking?

[+ JEC]

I am 5X vaxxed and also had COVID in June.  Because my immunity was so high, my COVID was less severe than a cold, my only symptom was sneezing more than normal, lasted a few days and that was all.  I was lucky, but I also truly believe that my resistance was high from all the vaccines.

At this point, I am hardly masking at all, in fact just back from a 2 week trip/cruise in Europe and we did not mask at all, and there were no restrictions anywhere ... we did have to show proof of vaccination to get on the cruise ship.  I was all-in on the masking distancing and other protocols through most of COVID.   At this point, the vulnerable are vaxxed (or, have the option to be) and we have highly effective treatments (paxlovid) for COVID.   It was very liberating to be able to travel without restrictions.

[pubic_assistance]

So I just spoke to my friend who is a text-book immunology expert.

He confirmed this research is extrapolation and not based on actual numbers of infected.

Millions of Americans have not been tested so it's all guess work based on the virulency of the virus not actual infection data.

He was also skeptical of the 94% estimate as this doesn't account enough for rural Americans who aren't being tested at all and aren't getting infected at the same rate as urban dwellers.

He did explain that unlike many other diseases, you can have Covid and still test negative a few weeks later. This explains why so many people would think they never got it. I know that confused me. I've been testing every other month ..so I assumed if I had it the tests would have picked it up...but he said that's not necessarily true.

Most people have been infected with Omicron without even knowing it. That does explain the "extrapolation" at such a high percentage.

But in the end...it is all guess-work and not hard data.

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by pubic_assistance

[+ sniper]

9 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

 

I am not saying I am "more knowledgeable" than anyone.

I am saying my sample group is so drastically different than this statistic that it can't be coincidental. I'm going to circle back around since its the holidays and do my own little research project. As I pay holiday greetings to my tribe, I want to see how many people I know who have been tested multiple times and are still Covid negative. 

Call me skeptical.

Unless they're testing every single day you simply don't know because of the short window for many people(and yes there are people at the other extreme who test positive for a very long time). Very, very few people are sping that.

[Isrhunter]

I swear it on Halloween

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Luv2play said:

This study hasn't been peer reviewed yet.

I want to applaud you for at least attempting to engage in rational discourse instead of personal insults and logical fallacies to bolster your opinions. Hopefully this is a harbinger to more mature discourse. Congratulations!

While there is certainly some validity in pointing out that I can't fully trust a study that hasn't been fully vetted (or published), I'm not so sure how powerful that criticism is. One can probably fairly assume that the Harvard School of Public Health knows what it's doing. The peer review process for the most part guides how the article is presented, and to which journal. A highly ground-breaking study might be presented to the NEJM, JAMA, or The Lancet, whereas a less ground-breaking study might be a better match for, say, the American Journal of Public Health. My parents both had lots of published articles in their names (and they, in turn, reviewed for certain journals). The suspense was always finding out which journal would publish the study, and how it had to be rewritten to conform to the journal's standards. It's not as if the findings themselves changed. 

Without actually being able to read the study, it's true I cannot say precisely how much I trust the study's findings. That being said, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the vast majority of Americans have had this infection, whether they've been tested or even been symptomatic or not. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

So I just spoke to my friend who is a text-book immunology expert.

He confirmed this research is extrapolation and not based on actual numbers of infected.

Millions of Americans have not been tested so it's all guess work based on the virulency of the virus not actual infection data.

He was also skeptical of the 94% estimate as this doesn't account enough for rural Americans who aren't being tested at all and aren't getting infected at the same rate as urban dwellers.

He did explain that unlike many other diseases, you can have Covid and still test negative a few weeks later. This explains why so many people would think they never got it. I know that confused me. I've been testing every other month ..so I assumed if I had it the tests would have picked it up...but he said that's not necessarily true.

Most people have been infected with Omicron without even knowing it. That does explain the "extrapolation" at such a high percentage.

But in the end...it is all guess-work and not hard data.

 

I think you may be confused about how the data was gathered. The only way to tell if someone has had prior exposure/infection is to check for antibodies to the virus's n-protein (nuclear). This antibody will not be present in people whose antibodies are due to the vaccine (s-protein, or spike). Neither your friend nor you nor myself has read the study, so no one is in a position to criticize how the data were gathered. While I'll grant that I am making an assumption, I do feel comfortable in assuming that some of the nation's best public health experts and experienced researchers know what they're doing so that their sample is representative. Once presented, we will know what the confidence interval is for the 94% (and climbing) figure.

It's fair to say, however, that the overwhelming majority of Americans have been exposed. In a similar light, before the vaccines for chickenpox became available, 95% of adults in the US had antibodies, even if they never had symptoms. Although many patients would say "But I never had chickenpox!", when tested, the results would almost always show prior exposure:

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/epidemiology-of-varicella-zoster-virus-infection-chickenpox

"According to national seroprevalence data from the pre-vaccine era, greater than 95 percent of persons in the United States acquired varicella before 20 years of age, and fewer than 2 percent of adults were susceptible to infection."

Sorry, but science always trumps personal experience and intuition. 

[Luv2play]

I will leave personal insults and logical fallacies to you since you seem to specialize in them, which is widely commented on not just by myself.

[CJK]

52 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

 

"According to national seroprevalence data from the pre-vaccine era, greater than 95 percent of persons in the United States acquired varicella before 20 years of age, and fewer than 2 percent of adults were susceptible to infection."

Sorry, but science always trumps personal experience and intuition. 

Sorry - but my personal experience is going to deflate your point. About a year ago, my doctor suggested the shingles vaccine....

• Me, "I do not think I ever had the chicken pox,"
• DR, "You are 57 years old. You probably had a minor case. You do not get into your fifties without being exposed to the chicken pox in a way that makes you insusceptible to infection."
• Me: "OK, then give me the shingles vaccine."
• DR, "Well, I can't now. You will need to be screened to make sure you are insusceptible to chicken pox before I can give you the vaccine."

A couple days later the doctor called and told me to come in for my chicken pox vaccine. I was scheduled for a Covid-19 booster the next week but after he gave me the chicken pox vaccine, he said I needed to get a second shot in a month and should not get any other vaccine before that.

Second example: Throughout the eighties, nineties and aughts I (stupidly) had unprotected sex with thousands of men, many of whom were infected. I lived in DC then GA, the two places in the US with the highest infection rates. Visited bathhouses? Yep. Had sex with strippers on stage? Many times. Worked out five or six days a week and almost always messed around in the gym, locker room, shower, steam room or sauna, often with several men at a time. Would you see me in porn theaters and cruising sites? Yep. I regularly visited Thailand, Frankfurt and SF.  Statistically, I should have been infected. Still negative. Last tested a couple weeks ago. (They always test when admitted to the hospital.)

Sorry, but for me the personal experience trumps the statistics. A 2% chance is still a chance so I will happily take necessary - or remotely perhaps helpful - precautions to keep from passing Covid on to others. 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by CJK

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, CJK said:

... my personal experience is going to deflate your point...

On the contrary, facts are still facts whether you like them or not. Your doctor was obviously correct in testing you before giving you the shingles vaccine. 2% is not 0%. He did not discount the possibility that you were in the 2%, hence the test. Had he not done so, you would have received the wrong immunization (Shingrix instead of the chickenpox vaccine). And now you have little worry for either chickenpox or shingles. Like your doctor, I've checked lots of adults with no history of chickenpox, and all tested positive for prior to exposure, but I never discounted the possibility of the person being in the 2%. As for masking, science has shown minimal efficacy: at best 9.5%. If you're really concerned about passing it on, you'll have to stay home or outdoors. And science has also shown that one should be far more concerned about transmitting influenza, which, at this time, is at least 100 times more deadly than the current strain of SARS-CoV2. 

The fact that you're still masking (unlike the vast majority of the US population) just provides further evidence that you value your intuition and personal experiences over factual information. And your vast personal experiences in the matter of adults with no history of chickenpox and how they test for chickenpox antibodies (Oh, yeah, one person) don't change the statistics. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by Unicorn

[+ WilliamM]

5 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

 

 

The fact that you're still masking (unlike the vast majority of the US population) just provides further evidence that you value your intuition and personal experiences over factual information. 

He may well be taking public transportation. Including Amtrak 

You may be quite surprised how many people wear masks on Amtrak.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, WilliamM said:

He may well be taking public transportation. Including Amtrak 

You may be quite surprised how many people wear masks on Amtrak.

My beau and I took Amtrak from DC to Baltimore some 6 weeks ago. I don't recall seeing anyone wear a mask. 

[+ WilliamM]

7 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

My beau and I took Amtrak from DC to Baltimore some 6 weeks ago. I don't recall seeing anyone wear a mask. 

I traveled from Philadelphia to New Rochelle, New York last week 

 

Many people were wearing masks

Respectfully, it is difficult to believe no one was wearing a mask from DC to Baltimore. To be fair, it was a shorter train tide

[Marc in Calif]

"So many people still wearing masks. I just want to ask you. If a pair of underwear, really thick ones, high-quality cotton, can’t protect you from a fart, then how will a mask protect you from COVID?"

[coriolis888]

5 hours ago, CJK said:

Snip snip - 

Second example: Throughout the eighties, nineties and aughts I (stupidly) had unprotected sex with thousands of men, many of whom were infected. I lived in DC then GA, the two places in the US with the highest infection rates. Visited bathhouses? Yep. Had sex with strippers on stage? Many times. Worked out five or six days a week and almost always messed around in the gym, locker room, shower, steam room or sauna, often with several men at a time. Would you see me in porn theaters and cruising sites? Yep. I regularly visited Thailand, Frankfurt and SF.  Statistically, I should have been infected. Still negative. Last tested a couple weeks ago. (They always test when admitted to the hospital.)

 

 

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Health Information and Tools >  HIV: Non-Progressors and HIV-Resistant People

  

Main Content

Related to Conditions

• Immune System

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• Topic Overview
• Related Information
• Credits

 

 

 

 

 

 

HIV-Resistant People

Topic Overview

A small number of people never become infected with HIV despite years of exposure to the virus. For example, they may have repeated, unprotected sex with an infected person. These people are said to be HIV-resistant. These people are never infected, so they can't spread HIV.

 

_______________________________________

Studies are under way to determine why some people either don't become infected with HIV or, if they do, why they don't develop symptoms or lose CD4+ cells. Research has shown that:

• Some people's CD4+ cells are relatively resistant to HIV. If HIV cannot attach itself to CD4+ cells, it cannot destroy them.
• Some people's immune systems may be better able to destroy the virus.
• Some strains of HIV may not be as harmful.

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

"So many people still wearing masks. I just want to ask you. If a pair of underwear, really thick ones, high-quality cotton, can’t protect you from a fart, then how will a mask protect you from COVID?"

That was on either Jimmy Kimmel Live or the Steve Colbert Show, wasn't it?

[Argos]

No. I have always followed the mask mandates in California and on public transportation, including airlines.   I have kept up with vaccinations and, fortunately, I have never tested positive for any Covid strain.

[+ Lucky]

Our beloved doctor @Unicorn wants us to hear his point of view. Unfortunately he also wants us to agree with him.

I am among those who think the concept "I'll do me, you do you" is valid.

[+ WilliamM]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

Our beloved doctor @Unicorn wants us to hear his point of view. Unfortunately he also wants us to agree with him.

I am among those who think the concept "I'll do me, you do you" is valid.

Well, I prefer doctors who are still practicing rather than retired doctors like @Unicorn

[pubic_assistance]

15 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I do feel comfortable in assuming that some of the nation's best public health experts and experienced researchers know what they're doing so that their sample is representative. Once presented, we will know what the confidence interval is for the 94% (and climbing) figure.

My friend is a published text-book immunologist ...so he IS one of the leading experts on immunology research and how its done.

I am not "confused". He made it clear that data is gathered that is representative and the rest is extrapolation. ( Guess-work).

He DID say that Omicron is quite virulent, and that most everyone who lives in an urban area is likely going to get it, no matter how much they mask up. Plus he said that because those are the people participating in testing/ vaccinations and hospitalizations, the data is going to be skewed toward urban Americans.  There is no way of knowing what's going on in Rural America because they're not getting tested and are more inclined to stay home when sick. 

His conclusion was that 94% sounded reasonable for the cities, but that without the research data in-hand there is no way of knowing how they estimated for rural people who don't have as much contact / aren't tested and haven't reported illness.

[Marc in Calif]

10 hours ago, Unicorn said:

That was on either Jimmy Kimmel Live or the Steve Colbert Show, wasn't it?

It was a tweet by the admirable and estimable Marjorie Taylor Greene. I'm sure the late-night hosts had a good time with it! 😁

[Marc in Calif]

Rather than personal anecdotes from an author of a published text-book [sic], I prefer to follow the research and guidance on mask wearing provided by experts at the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins Medical School, Stanford Medicine, CalTech, UC-San Francisco, and other major top-ranked medical centers. 

In addition, researchers from Stanford Medicine, Yale University, and UC-Berkeley carried out the world's largest randomized study of mask wearing in a region with relatively high population density — 350,000 people in 600 villages in Bangladesh.

Conclusions: "Wearing a surgical face mask over the mouth and nose is an effective way to reduce the occurrence of COVID-19 in community settings.... Masks should remain a central tool for reducing covid-19 everywhere., particularly since the delta variant’s prevalence means that even vaccines do not fully prevent transmission. Masks are especially important in countries such as Bangladesh where vaccine distribution has been slow* — and in countries (again, like Bangladesh) where population density makes physical distancing difficult....  

Moreover, "the study linked surgical masks with an 11% drop in risk, compared with a 5% drop for cloth. That finding was reinforced by laboratory experiments whose results are summarized in the same preprint. The data show that even after 10 washes, surgical masks filter out 76% of small particles capable of airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2, says Mushfiq Mobarak, an economist at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, and a co-author of the study. By contrast, the team found that 3-layered cloth masks had a filtration efficiency of only 37% before washing or use." — Nature (09 September 2021)

We also know this: "While masks can help provide protection from the virus, nothing can replace the vaccine.... This is one of those things that we hear all the time, ‘Well there’s vaccinated people getting the virus too.’ Yes, some vaccinated people might get the infection, but the overwhelming number of patients who get the infection are people who are not vaccinated.” — Cleveland Clinic

*Note: In the United States, only 68% of people are considered fully vaccinated (ranking about 70th in the world).

 

[EZEtoGRU]

19 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I want to applaud you for at least attempting to engage in rational discourse instead of personal insults and logical fallacies to bolster your opinions. Hopefully this is a harbinger to more mature discourse. Congratulations!

This coming from you has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time. 

[+ WilliamM]

19 hours ago, Unicorn said:

On the contrary, facts are still facts whether you like them or not. Your doctor was obviously correct in testing you before giving you the shingles vaccine. 2% is not 0%. He did not discount the possibility that you were in the 2%, hence the test. Had he not done so, you would have received the wrong immunization (Shingrix instead of the chickenpox vaccine). And now you have little worry for either chickenpox or shingles. Like your doctor, I've checked lots of adults with no history of chickenpox, and all tested positive for prior to exposure, but I never discounted the possibility of the person being in the 2%. As for masking, science has shown minimal efficacy: at best 9.5%. If you're really concerned about passing it on, you'll have to stay home or outdoors. And science has also shown that one should be far more concerned about transmitting influenza, which, at this time, is at least 100 times more deadly than the current strain of SARS-CoV2. 

The fact that you're still masking (unlike the vast majority of the US population) just provides further evidence that you value your intuition and personal experiences over factual information. And your vast personal experiences in the matter of adults with no history of chickenpox and how they test for chickenpox antibodies (Oh, yeah, one person) don't change the statistics. 

No, he is oee of the smart ones, like nurss and  and teachers

[pubic_assistance]

2 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

Rather than personal anecdotes from an author of a published text-book [sic], I prefer to follow the research and guidance on mask wearing provided by experts at the Mayo Clinic, the Cleveland Clinic, Johns Hopkins Medical School, Stanford Medicine, CalTech, UC-San Francisco, and other major top-ranked medical centers. 

As was stated previously. YOU DO YOU.

I find your attempt at minimizing my opinion by using the phrase "personal anecdote" and pointing out an error in spelling counter productive, and a little juvenile.

I have access to an opinion by one of the leading American researchers in HIV and part of the very team who discovered the source of the human immune response, and you - instead of being interested in that opinion - childishly attempt to suppress it by mocking me and my source.

That's not helpful to adult discourse over an issue that many people are interested in how truthful what we are being told might be. There's a lot of distrust right now in the pharmaceutical industry, so I think sharing the opinions of someone who is now the CFO of a pharmaceutical company, might be valued as part of the conversation, not mocked because YOU happen to only want to believe the "official version" of a report.  I am learning from his professional explanations of a complicated matter. I think others might be interested, even if you don't.

[RadioRob]

 

There have been MULTIPLE notes about staying on topic in the thread however as I look at the last few pages here it’s not even near being relevant. 

So we’re done here.