How does the European market compare to the North American?

[Jamie21]

55 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

That I’m aware of. There’s a site I browse in UK called Saafe and they actually have a “warnings and wasters “ section on their forum that discreetly allows users to post bad incidents and even a separate section for non threatening situations where an in person meet may not have occurred, but could be a proceed with caution situation (hint hint @Kevin Slater and our dear mods as this forum becomes so much more innovative than ever before 😉 

 

But I’ve seen the reports. London and the UK had some real loonies. But probably not nearly much more than here. 

Attitudes here (London) are generally quite liberal. It’s not unlawful to do sex work (with some caveats). Yes there are bad clients out there: 
I get regular emails from an organisation called National Ugly Mugs (I don’t understand the name…so don’t ask!) warning me of potential dangerous clients. Sadly it seems they mostly target females. It must be so difficult for female sex workers. I feel for them. 
Off topic (sorry!) but I love @Jarrod_Uncut description “relaxation consultant” 🙂

[Jarrod_Uncut]

7 hours ago, arnemgreeves said:

One thing about the UK is that the police take attacks on sex workers seriously, for the most part. It's not illegal per se, so it's better than most of the USA for that matter.

 

Fortunately, the online circuit is mostly safer than the streets and other means.

Most of the scariest incidents here among gays and sex in America is: usually from Grindr, hookup apps or random drunken nightclub “freebies”. Generally those situations occur because there’s a lack setting boundaries (also known as being “difficult” to some). 

[Colton]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:22 AM, Thomas_Belgium said:

Exactly. Also in Belgium they can get health & social insurance including retirement benefits, get an accountant, lawyer, whatever they need as any other company.

Wow that’s super progressive.  I wonder if policies like this attract sex workers to set up home base in Belgium.  

[Thomas_Belgium]

On 9/16/2022 at 11:14 AM, arnemgreeves said:

they should make actual brothels legal with security, or even co-working spaces where independent people could work with paid security they all chip into. i doubt this would happen soon - it's not a good look on the electorate and there are arguably more pressing issues to attend to. 

Yes, since Sep. 1st (this year) brothels are fully legal in Belgium.

[Jamie21]

46 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

Cool. I lived much of my life in the UK - escorting is mostly legal there but I can't see it being fully legalised soon. 

It’s totally legal here (UK)  except that you can’t work in a brothel, nor solicit on the street. I agree, I don’t anticipate any change in that anytime soon. 

[+ DrownedBoy]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:14 AM, arnemgreeves said:

they should make actual brothels legal with security, or even co-working spaces where independent people could work with paid security they all chip into. i doubt this would happen soon - it's not a good look on the electorate and there are arguably more pressing issues to attend to. 

Absolutely. Brothels are safer and more comfortable for both parties.

Depends on where the electorate is. Chicago used to be famous for its fancy brothels (even attracting European royals and nobles). Most citizens (and officials) just looked the other way.

Unfortunately, in the States, too many people lack common sense - they think outlawing something actually stops it. Sort of like the dimwits in the South who banned sex ed, and were then surprised when teenage pregnancy increased.

[Thomas_Belgium]

On 9/16/2022 at 8:03 PM, Colton said:

Wow that’s super progressive.  I wonder if policies like this attract sex workers to set up home base in Belgium.  

Half of the gay (porn) sites I regularly visit are registered in the Netherlands:

 

ActiveDuty.com

BearBack.com

F2f.net

FalconStudios.com

Hunqz.com

JohnnyRapid.com

NextDoorStudios.com

RagingStallion.com

Staxus.com

 

This is because the law in the Netherlands protects sex workers, including porn performers. So, yes, I'm sure the new laws will attract more (legal) sex work businesses.

[Colton]

7 hours ago, Thomas_Belgium said:

registered in the Netherland

I wouldn’t read too much into this fact.  First off, these are a bunch of related websites, so only probably 2-3 unique companies.  Second, these companies earn a lot from around the world, and the Netherlands is a great place to set up to avoid tax.  Foreign earnings are usually tax free in the Netherlands.  While you may think of Ikea as Swedish and Fiat as Italian, both are now Dutch registered companies.  
 

 

[Thomas_Belgium]

On 9/18/2022 at 11:57 PM, Colton said:

I wouldn’t read too much into this fact.  First off, these are a bunch of related websites, so only probably 2-3 unique companies.  Second, these companies earn a lot from around the world, and the Netherlands is a great place to set up to avoid tax.  Foreign earnings are usually tax free in the Netherlands.  While you may think of Ikea as Swedish and Fiat as Italian, both are now Dutch registered companies.  
 

 

Colton,

 

You're right, six of the sites I visit regularly (ActiveDuty.com, BearBack.com, FalconStudios.com, JohnnyRapid.com, NextDoorStudios.com, RagingStallion.com) are registered by:

Digigamma bv, Mariettahof 25, 2033 WS Haarlem, The Netherlands.

[harlow]

I see this thread is mainly about the price and legal differences between Europe and the US but I’m curious about differences in how providers respond to clientele of different ethnicities.  As a black American would I have an issue hiring someone?  I’m planning a trip to Europe next year and that’s something that I’ve been wondering about. 

[Jamie21]

1 hour ago, harlow said:

I see this thread is mainly about the price and legal differences between Europe and the US but I’m curious about differences in how providers respond to clientele of different ethnicities.  As a black American would I have an issue hiring someone?  I’m planning a trip to Europe next year and that’s something that I’ve been wondering about. 

I can’t speak for the whole of Europe and I wouldn’t assume that Europe is homogeneous. But I can talk about London because it’s where I live and work, and I’ll say that generally you’ll have no problem in London. The city is the most multi cultural in Europe and is, despite what some media commentators would like to imply, a very welcoming and accepting city of all ethnicities. 
 

[harlow]

56 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

I can’t speak for the whole of Europe and I wouldn’t assume that Europe is homogeneous. But I can talk about London because it’s where I live and work, and I’ll say that generally you’ll have no problem in London. The city is the most multi cultural in Europe and is, despite what some media commentators would like to imply, a very welcoming and accepting city of all ethnicities. 
 

Awesome and thanks so much for your perspective!

[+ DrownedBoy]

8 hours ago, arnemgreeves said:

I won't lie. In Britain, you'd get a few providers of either sex saying they don't see black guys. They often give some BS excuse of "I have a black partner" which is illogical in various guises. But overall, most providers see people of any race. 

You get this in the U.S. too.

This phenomenon has been established through sociological research of providers in the U.S. Many younger people believe that black men are too "stingy," and that they're too demanding when they hire someone. So many U.S. providers avoid black men as well.

(the last time a provider asked me what my ethnicity was, I refused, and when he insisted, I cancelled - I'm not black, but also not racist)

Edited November 5, 2022 by DrownedBoy

[Jamie21]

I saw a massage client last week. After the massage he said he’d like a 4 hands next time. So I asked him what kind of masseur he’d like to join me for the 4 hands. I work with a few guys (and females) who I know and trust are good, and they’re a variety of ages and ethnicities etc.

He says he’s open but then says ‘no black guys’. The client is from the US. I didn’t ask why; it could be a prejudice I don’t know. I can understand someone having a body type preference or preferring older guys or something but ethnicity preference is a difficult one for me. If you do open yourself up to experience different people you can find that you’ve been missing out! 

[Alex93108]

As someone who rotates between London and New York quite regularly  over the past year ( though my travel patterns is slowing down now) , I noticed the following in 2022

- Boys in New York cost more ( naturally). Rates have in fact fallen slightly.

- Rates in London have largely held, much to my surprise, despite the cost of living crisis

- There is a premium charge to host in New York. ( which is the opposite of what it is in London. People come from outside of London, and expect someone to host ) 

- Almost no one in New York or the US uses whatapp to set up appointments  ever, which is almost mandatory in the UK. The guys in the US will use a messenger app instead.  Boys in the UK will often have two phones. 

- TOO MANY BRAZILLAINS IN LONDON. Which has its plusses and minuses.  Frankly I prefer hiring Brazillians in Brazil, but this isn't entirely a rule.

- Foreigners ( largely Americans ) routinely get charged more in London, but since I am practically pseudo local at this point, I have largely avoided this.  

- New York has nice healthy mix still of different flavors / talent.

Edited November 6, 2022 by jetlow

[Hlparx]

On 11/4/2022 at 11:44 AM, harlow said:

I see this thread is mainly about the price and legal differences between Europe and the US but I’m curious about differences in how providers respond to clientele of different ethnicities.  As a black American would I have an issue hiring someone?  I’m planning a trip to Europe next year and that’s something that I’ve been wondering about. 

I’ve hired in London, Paris, and Amsterdam and my ethnicity wasn’t an issue.  The men that I’ve hired have been Irish, English, French, Brazilian, Dutch, Serbian/Venezuelan, and Polish.

Happy to chat via PM if you’d like.

[coriolis888]

On 6/15/2022 at 1:56 AM, Jamie21 said:

Wait! You mean if what I do was illegal I could charge more?  

The risk of an illegal act deserves a higher fee, or so I am told.  

[coriolis888]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:22 AM, Thomas_Belgium said:

Exactly. Also in Belgium they can get health & social insurance including retirement benefits, get an accountant, lawyer, whatever they need as any other company.

Yes, in Belgium and many other civilized parts of Europe, escorting (prostitution) is legal. 

Here in the U.S. it is not legal, as we all know. 

It is the misguided and/or warped thinking of non escorts that falsely believe that  most escorts are involved with human trafficking.  

When you read some of the discussions that helped cause shutting down former well known advertising medias (like Craigslist and/or rentboy, to mention just two) getting escorting legal again in the U.S will take a miracle or a different century.

I cannot reconcile the fame given to Francis Scott Key because he penned about America, "Land of the free and the home of the brave."  Tell that to escorts and those arrested for prostitution. 

   

[coriolis888]

On 9/15/2022 at 8:13 PM, Jarrod_Uncut said:

 

Most of the scariest incidents here among gays and sex in America is: usually from Grindr, hookup apps or random drunken nightclub “freebies”. Generally those situations occur because there’s a lack setting boundaries (also known as being “difficult” to some). 

What about ads placed on rentmen and similar medias that include guys posing as escorts but who use stolen photos and false information but have intention of robbing a "client" who falls for the fake ad?  Or similar type of dishonest behavior in advertising?

Those events can also be classified as "scariest incidents" or worse.  

[+ DrownedBoy]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:26 PM, coriolis888 said:

Here in the U.S. it is not legal, as we all know.

  

Point of order - in most major American cities (including NYC/Chicago/LA), reforms have been carried out that make prostitution legal, but hiring an escort is still a crime. So, in probably the majority of American hires, the client is the only party liable to any criminal penalties or publicity.

Edited November 12, 2022 by DrownedBoy

[coriolis888]

10 minutes ago, DrownedBoy said:

Point of order - in most major American cities (including NYT/Chicago/LA), reforms have been carried out that make prostitution legal, but hiring an escort is still a crime, making the client the only party liable to any criminal penalties or publicity.

That describes a situation where a participant is effectively "clapping with one hand" so to speak.   It is a one-way street.  

Without both parties involved, there would not be prostitution.

To prosecute one party without the other involved party is bizarre and  discriminatory. 

I am aware that Canada has laws that allow prostitutes to escape prosecution while the "John" is often prosecuted for the same incident. 

To make the matter more silly, take a look at this article about this subject:

https://sharpcriminalattorney.com/criminal-defense-guides/prostitution-sting-operations-considered-entrapment/

  

  

[Jarrod_Uncut]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:43 PM, coriolis888 said:

What about ads placed on rentmen and similar medias that include guys posing as escorts but who use stolen photos and false information but have intention of robbing a "client" who falls for the fake ad?  Or similar type of dishonest behavior in advertising?

Those events can also be classified as "scariest incidents" or worse.  

That’s not out of the question however, hookup apps are more often and likely to be where issues come up. Fake providers post on there as well…

[Jamie21]

1 hour ago, arnemgreeves said:

This is the Nordic model. I think it’s designed to help escorts as they’re the ones perceived as victims. It’s really there to lessen demand for it or at least that is the rationale in Norway.

Except it doesn’t reduce demand, it just drives it underground. Any attempts to legislate demand or supply is doomed to failure. Better to regulate. 

[Jamie21]

29 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

Oh I agree. It's a misguided model and I'm not sure how well it actually works in Norway. 

I hear it’s not effective, but that’s third hand. As with lots of things the Germans seem to have it worked out. 

[jtwalker]

It's called the oldest profession for a reason.  If they haven't managed to legislate it away yet, seems like it is time to throw in the towel.  Looks like people are going to continue to pay for sex for the foreseeable future.

The other thing that irritates me about this is that there is such a fine line.  If I hooked up with someone at a bar, had sex, and then gave my new lover some kind of a gift that's completely OK, but if it is prearranged there is a problem.  Sex is often involved in an equity trade anyway.  A girl looks for a successful guy to have babies with, but being a gold digger is legal?  The whole thing is crazy.