How does the European market compare to the North American?

[Isrhunter]

Is there the same demand as there is the North America in Europe? How does it compare and differ?

[BonVivant]

Demand is good. Rates in Europe are lower. Also different websites.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

Not to mention: America still isn't fully decriminalized like many European countries are. 

 

[Kevin Slater]

5 hours ago, BonVivant said:

Rates in Europe are lower

 

33 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

 America still isn't fully decriminalized like many European countries are. 

 

I suspect there's a connection there.

Kevin Slater

[Jamie21]

Wait! You mean if what I do was illegal I could charge more?  

[BonVivant]

“Rates in Europe are lower.“ And vary by country and city. E.g. London rates are high for Europe but less than NYC. But Berlin is “low” rates. I’d say Paris is in between the two. Also availability varies by city too, much like in the USA but much better geographic coverage. Hunqz will give you a good idea if you just explore in it. 
 

“Different websites”. If you use RM in Europe you’ll be paying higher (think US rates or close or it) versus Hunqz or Sleepyboy. 

[Kevin Slater]

4 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

Wait! You mean if what I do was illegal I could charge more?  

I posit you would have fewer competitors while demand remained.

Kevin Slater

[Isrhunter]

Would the demand also be higher in that case as well as people would be more comfortable to hire?

10 hours ago, Kevin Slater said:

 

I suspect there's a connection there.

Kevin Slater

[Jamie21]

5 hours ago, Kevin Slater said:

I posit you would have fewer competitors while demand remained.

Kevin Slater

Yep, probably. There’s a lot of competition here. Lots of guys just playing at it, offering poor service. 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

12 hours ago, Kevin Slater said:

I posit you would have fewer competitors while demand remained.

Kevin Slater

 

6 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

Yep, probably. There’s a lot of competition here. Lots of guys just playing at it, offering poor service. 

Speaking of which: I don’t know how there’s so many providers who pop up in cities where people aren’t really paying for nothing. 
 

I see this is Denver, Kansas City, and Nashville. I feel like America in many cities is the same clients being recycled among a steady stream of escorts. In many larger cities, it’s hard to stand out because it’s often an “influx” of ads at random always coming thru. Like why? I can’t believe that anybody is making much money because, those same recycled clients often get blocked and blacklisted because they come off pushy, go ghost, cancel back to back, etc. And when you sit down and take the time to market: 3-4-5 more ads pop up.
 

If you can get to a smaller market, it takes a bit of time to drum up the business and it seems like lately: 2 or 3 clients is about the most you will see in a 1-2 day visit. Which isn’t bad, but it’s because of that which I need to charge more. Like for Memorial Day weekend travel: I had 2 (serious) clients only. One was an overnight and the other an hour. Both regulars from previous trips. All the newbies flaked or I missed them for reasons beyond control.
 

What do guys think is the least/most amount you can charge and have a steady stream of clients? Like…I sometimes desire to operate where I can just have 2-3 clients a day, in and out. But hypothetically it seems I’d have to charge $100 to make that happen. And I just can’t work at that price anymore (I used to years ago, here and there seldomly. It got me more clients, but didn’t really pay the bills/overheads because I wasn’t getting THAT many more clients). 
 

I recall way back in my earlier days, I serviced a couple of regulars for $60 and even $30!! Dollars. Non of it was full on, mainly just companionship/touching, but it’s so expensive to be an escort, clients can’t really understand. I can’t do anything with $100, except pay for a hotel (for the visit) and like 1/4 tank of gas. That’s why I can’t deal with Adam4Adam or even Grindr advertising because majority of those people in more saturated, big disparity in income cities (Denver, Kansas City, Nashville) only want to pay $75.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Jarrod_Uncut

[+ keroscenefire]

From the clients perspective, rates are definitely lower. Was just in Europe and it was more 150-200 euro an hour and longer (even 3-4 hour sessions) were like 500 euro. I talked to one guy about why European rates are lower than American rates. He said it's probably more that the social safety net is stronger so you can do it more as a job. In France he said there are rental subsidies, universal healthcare, excellent transit (so no need for a car), etc. I was surprised to learn that his apartment in Paris was only $1100 a month. Sounds like it might just be easier making a living as an escort over there.

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, keroscenefire said:

From the clients perspective, rates are definitely lower. Was just in Europe and it was more 150-200 euro an hour and longer (even 3-4 hour sessions) were like 500 euro. I talked to one guy about why European rates are lower than American rates. He said it's probably more that the social safety net is stronger so you can do it more as a job. In France he said there are rental subsidies, universal healthcare, excellent transit (so no need for a car), etc. I was surprised to learn that his apartment in Paris was only $1100 a month. Sounds like it might just be easier making a living as an escort over there.

 

 

He may be onto something. If that's the primary reason for the disparity, though, it makes me a little sad, as it would seem to imply that a large number of escorts are only looking to "make a living" rather than take an opportunity to build for the future or majorly upgrade their lifestyle. 

I do think that legal status, and its close relative, cultural attitudes, play a big role. Here in canada sex work  is semi-decriminalized (google "nordic model" if you're curious), and rates are somewhere between american and european.  I'm probably liable as an outsider to paint a rosy picture of (western) europe, but my sense is that overall it remains a much easier place to come out than north america, especially for our larger immigrant populations who often come from more conservative cultures.

 

[Jarrod_Uncut]

2 hours ago, Dante said:

He may be onto something. If that's the primary reason for the disparity, though, it makes me a little sad, as it would seem to imply that a large number of escorts are only looking to "make a living" rather than take an opportunity to build for the future or majorly upgrade their lifestyle. 

I do think that legal status, and its close relative, cultural attitudes, play a big role. Here in canada sex work  is semi-decriminalized (google "nordic model" if you're curious), and rates are somewhere between american and european.  I'm probably liable as an outsider to paint a rosy picture of (western) europe, but my sense is that overall it remains a much easier place to come out than north america, especially for our larger immigrant populations who often come from more conservative cultures.

 

Are you suggesting that having escorting to make a living is, sad?

I mean, I thought at the end of the day it’s everybody individual choice what they choose to want to escort for. I know this has been talked about before but, not everybody is in it part time. Some people may be okay juggling escorting with other jobs, but in a (lucrative) market, I think one can get by just fine. 
 

I think that’s why some American clients don’t take us seriously. You got everybody here just “part timing” it, not really invested. And people wonder why everybody is a flake. See it as a job, TREAT it…as one. All the fucking, “people on RM are just guys looking for extra money shit”, is very outdone. I’ve put the work in, I’ve paid for the ads/the pics/the accommodations. Now level up, and stop messing around (not you, referring to the overall scene).

Edited June 16, 2022 by Jarrod_Uncut

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Jarrod_Uncut said:

Are you suggesting that having escorting to make a living is, sad?

Not at all. I might have phrased that poorly-what I mean is that I'd like to see a world where more people can get by as escorts, and more escorts can do more than just get by. It's so hard to know what the real stats are, I'm just reacting to the previous post which seemed to suggest that a strong social safety net (which I'm 200% in favour of) could be the difference between escorting being a viable livelihood or not. I took that to mean that if the costs of healthcare, etc, were added, many european escorts might not be able to make it work. When I say it's a little sad, that's not a judgement or commentary on any worker (sex or otherwise), but rather on the options available to them.

Bottom line, in the world we live in, there's absolutely no shame in just getting by. When you look at the historic levels of wealth and income inequality today, I think it's pretty reasonable for working class people to be asking for a little more. 

(Sorry to the admins if this is verging on political discussion- I will leave it at that)

Edited June 16, 2022 by Guest
clarifying and adding comment

[Jarrod_Uncut]

1 hour ago, Dante said:

Not at all. I might have phrased that poorly-what I mean is that I'd like to see a world where more people can get by as escorts, and more escorts can do more than just get by.

As much as I agree, this is a fantasy too far gone at the moment lol. When you have shitty, bottom of the barrel, good for nothing, piece of crap disguised as a “place to meet other men” apps like Grindr; which actively ban/flag anyone even discussing escort services, and then have the same bottom-feeding leeches as members (it’s not allowed to mention escorting, but it’s allowed to say how you DON’T want one): how can anyone ever expect a world where more people can get by as escorts AND, do more than just get by?

If anything: I think we have TOO MANY escorts right about now. Many cities in America can’t handle the volume that’s currently in progress. We can’t have more escorts, until it’s as acceptable as hiring an Uber/Lyft. It should be, because majority gay guys out here are just looking for NSA sex anyway. There should be a app service for that…

Unfortunately, I feel if hypothetically there was a huge amount of escorts, prices would be driven down a lot. But whether it could produce revenue and success like marijuana dispensaries? I couldn’t tell you…

[+ keroscenefire]

3 hours ago, Dante said:

He may be onto something. If that's the primary reason for the disparity, though, it makes me a little sad, as it would seem to imply that a large number of escorts are only looking to "make a living" rather than take an opportunity to build for the future or majorly upgrade their lifestyle. 

This Parisian garcon was actually really into photography and fashion. He's done a bit of modeling, art directing, photography, etc. He showed me his stuff and it's really cool actually. He definitely has an eye and is working on a sort of art film.  So I think for him escorting is something he generally enjoys while also allowing him to pursue his artistic passions. It does sound like that is easier to do in France than in the US. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by keroscenefire
Grammar error

[Jamie21]

I agree that in Europe there’s a stronger social underpin and more liberal attitudes. Here in UK I don’t pay for healthcare, my sexual health screening and any treatment is free, prep is free, travel without a car is easy although the costs of accommodation in London is extremely high. There’s still some stigma about doing sex work unfortunately but it is reducing as attitudes become more open minded. Plus it’s legal (within boundaries) so I can advertise openly which makes it easier to get clients. 

[Alex93108]

Since I travel a lot of I have something to say - its quite simple. It boils down to basic economics 

Americans ( in general ) , especially those in New York / Los Angeles  / San Francisco  earn more money than Europeans, and take home more.  It's that simple, and thus are willing to pay more. We are also taxed less.  Coupled with demand and supply, rates are lower in most of Europe, London and Paris included, compared to what is asked in New York / Los Angeles/ San Francisco / Miami. 

Its even lower in Spain, where supply is much more abundant, far greater than demand. Lowest rates in Europe I think in Spain. 

I always believe the most simple explanation is the best one. Basic economics. 

. 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by jetlow

[Jamie21]

 

14 hours ago, jetlow said:

Since I travel a lot of I have something to say - its quite simple. It boils down to basic economics 

Americans ( in general ) , especially those in New York / Los Angeles  / San Francisco  earn more money than Europeans, and take home more.  It's that simple, and thus are willing to pay more. We are also taxed less.  Coupled with demand and supply, rates are lower in most of Europe, London and Paris included, compared to what is asked in New York / Los Angeles/ San Francisco / Miami. 

Its even lower in Spain, where supply is much more abundant, far greater than demand. Lowest rates in Europe I think in Spain. 

I always believe the most simple explanation is the best one. Basic economics. 

. 

 

 

Occam’s Razor

Edited July 10, 2022 by Jamie21

[John]

19 hours ago, jetlow said:

Since I travel a lot of I have something to say - its quite simple. It boils down to basic economics 

Americans ( in general ) , especially those in New York / Los Angeles  / San Francisco  earn more money than Europeans, and take home more.  It's that simple, and thus are willing to pay more. We are also taxed less.  Coupled with demand and supply, rates are lower in most of Europe, London and Paris included, compared to what is asked in New York / Los Angeles/ San Francisco / Miami. 

Its even lower in Spain, where supply is much more abundant, far greater than demand. Lowest rates in Europe I think in Spain. 

I always believe the most simple explanation is the best one. Basic economics. 

. 

 

 

You make it sound like Americans are swimming in loot.  If so, it is because we need it.  I divide my year between the US and Europe.  There are many things which are vastly more expensive in the US than in Europe. Little ones like cell phones and internet access and big ones like health care, insurance, and education.

I think the price difference we are talking about here has more to do with law and social attitudes than with "take home pay."  Guys I meet in Europe are more like the young Parisian mentioned above: they like meeting interesting men, want to have some fun, and are happy to augment their income along the way.

 

[+ DrownedBoy]

19 hours ago, jetlow said:

Since I travel a lot of I have something to say - its quite simple. It boils down to basic economics 

Americans ( in general ) , especially those in New York / Los Angeles  / San Francisco  earn more money than Europeans, and take home more.  It's that simple, and thus are willing to pay more. We are also taxed less.  Coupled with demand and supply, rates are lower in most of Europe, London and Paris included, compared to what is asked in New York / Los Angeles/ San Francisco / Miami. 

Its even lower in Spain, where supply is much more abundant, far greater than demand. Lowest rates in Europe I think in Spain. 

I always believe the most simple explanation is the best one. Basic economics. 

Good rundown. Thanks.

One question though. If a European escort figures out you're an American, do they try and raise their rates? Lots of businesspeople do.

And I back what John said. I'd be happy with less, but as an American, I have to get good health insurance (and still have my deductible in savings), squirrel away money so I don't retire in poverty, etc. There are no European-style social safety nets in the States, nor is there likely to be for 20 years at least.

[Alex93108]

1 hour ago, DrownedBoy said:

Good rundown. Thanks.

One question though. If a European escort figures out you're an American, do they try and raise their rates? Lots of businesspeople do.

And I back what John said. I'd be happy with less, but as an American, I have to get good health insurance (and still have my deductible in savings), squirrel away money so I don't retire in poverty, etc. There are no European-style social safety nets in the States, nor is there likely to be for 20 years at least.

I can indeed confirm in London they do. They see my +1 number on WhatsApp and suddenly the lads are asking £250-300.

When I got a local +44 0777  🙂 number ( not for this, but for other more personal reasons) I noticed it started at £200. Anyway - this was probably 2-3 months ago.  I haven't hired in Europe in a while.

And when they ask me where I'm staying I get generic - i.e near Kings Cross lol . Or republique in Paris etc by the Gare - until interest has been confirmed and the rate agreed. Always.  Saying "meet me at Le Meurice" is probably going to cost you. Duh

I believe in paying fairly, but no one wants to be taken for a ride - even if a ride is involved. 

 

[Hlparx]

23 hours ago, DrownedBoy said:

Good rundown. Thanks.

One question though. If a European escort figures out you're an American, do they try and raise their rates? Lots of businesspeople do.

And I back what John said. I'd be happy with less, but as an American, I have to get good health insurance (and still have my deductible in savings), squirrel away money so I don't retire in poverty, etc. There are no European-style social safety nets in the States, nor is there likely to be for 20 years at least.

Sometimes.  For example, with some providers who advertise on both Hunqz and RM, they will charge more if you mention that you saw their profile on RM versus Hunqz.  For example, one provider I saw in Paris a few years ago listed his RM rate at €200 and his Hunqz rate at €150.  He’s since aligned them at the RM rate. 

The rationale as I’ve heard it (from other members on the forum) is that Americans are more likely to use RM whereas Hunqz sees more European use.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Hlparx

[Thomas_Belgium]

18 hours ago, arnemgreeves said:

I'm not an escort but it's legal in most of Europe. So this means less screening for police, and more open advertising. Probably less problematic somewhat, but there are still shitty and dangerous punters about.

Exactly. Also in Belgium they can get health & social insurance including retirement benefits, get an accountant, lawyer, whatever they need as any other company.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

21 hours ago, arnemgreeves said:

I'm not an escort but it's legal in most of Europe. So this means less screening for police, and more open advertising. Probably less problematic somewhat, but there are still shitty and dangerous punters about.

That I’m aware of. There’s a site I browse in UK called Saafe and they actually have a “warnings and wasters “ section on their forum that discreetly allows users to post bad incidents and even a separate section for non threatening situations where an in person meet may not have occurred, but could be a proceed with caution situation (hint hint @Kevin Slater and our dear mods as this forum becomes so much more innovative than ever before 😉 

 

But I’ve seen the reports. London and the UK had some real loonies. But probably not nearly much more than here.