Has been Covid more "disastrous" than HIV to the world?

[lonely_john]

Covid has affected everyone's lives. It's been a permanent topic on the news for 2 years now, showing a negative impact on many domains outside of health care; basically disturbing society at physical, economic, and psychological levels, to name a few.

This made me ask myself if this is the worse Pandemic we've seen in modern times. Was Polio worse? What about HIV?

I researched online trying to find the number of people who died from HIV since the start of its pandemic, so I could compare them, but I failed to find anything.

I would like to know what others think.

[jeezifonly]

I don’t know how you can compare them, medically.

Though both were exacerbated by a disastrous Administration ignoring cries for help.

[+ nycman]

Politics aside, I’d say COVID has certainly been more disastrous world wide than HIV.

To the gay community, of course HIV was a million times worse, but in reality 
it’s impact on the rest of the world wasn’t nearly as great as COVID. 

By shear numbers of deaths, HIV still wins by a landslide 36 million vs 4.6 million. But remember 
those 36 million were spread out over 3 decades. The 4.6 million COVID deaths have all happened
in about 36 months. And don’t forget HIV used to be 100% fatal so the 36 million represented 
everyone who got the disease. There have been about 226 million cases of COVID worldwide.

So apples and oranges, but I’d say COVID. 
 

And polio? Now you’re throwing Kiwi into the mix…good luck. 

[lonely_john]

1 hour ago, nycman said:

HIV still wins by a landslide 36 million vs 4.6 million. But remember those 36 million were spread out over 3 decades. The 4.6 million COVID deaths have all happened in about 36 months.

Thank you. Even though I couldn't find the total number of deaths, your observation about 36 M in 3 decades vs 4.6 M is 36 months is quite enlightening.

I think the reason, to put it in simple terms, is that one is transmitted by sexual intercourse and the other one is airborne - way more contagious.

[+ Lucky]

@lonely_johnAre you saying that COVID is airborne?

[lonely_john]

19 minutes ago, Lucky said:

@lonely_johnAre you saying that COVID is airborne?

Yes. If I recall correctly, that's the latest information available on the news and scientific articles.

Edited September 15, 2021 by lonely_john

[+ WilliamM]

5 hours ago, nycman said:

Politics aside, I’d say COVID has certainly been more disastrous world wide than HIV.

To the gay community, of course HIV was a million times worse, but in reality 
it’s impact on the rest of the world wasn’t nearly as great as COVID. 

By shear numbers of deaths, HIV still wins by a landslide 36 million vs 4.6 million. But remember 
those 36 million were spread out over 3 decades. The 4.6 million COVID deaths have all happened
in about 36 months. And don’t forget HIV used to be 100% fatal so the 36 million represented 
everyone who got the disease. There have been about 226 million cases of COVID worldwide.

So apples and oranges, but I’d say COVID. 
 

And polio? Now you’re throwing Kiwi into the mix…good luck. 

i agree covid19 is considerably worse

Edited September 15, 2021 by WilliamM

[Luv2play]

4 hours ago, nycman said:

Politics aside, I’d say COVID has certainly been more disastrous world wide than HIV.

To the gay community, of course HIV was a million times worse, but in reality 
it’s impact on the rest of the world wasn’t nearly as great as COVID. 

By shear numbers of deaths, HIV still wins by a landslide 36 million vs 4.6 million. But remember 
those 36 million were spread out over 3 decades. The 4.6 million COVID deaths have all happened
in about 36 months. And don’t forget HIV used to be 100% fatal so the 36 million represented 
everyone who got the disease. There have been about 226 million cases of COVID worldwide.

So apples and oranges, but I’d say COVID. 
 

And polio? Now you’re throwing Kiwi into the mix…good luck. 

I agree with your reasoning but would point out Covid has only been around since the start of 2020 and deaths started occurring in significant numbers around March of that year. So only about 20 months, not 36. 

[Mjonis]

I see some similarities (not medically) but more social/political.  Remember when HIV first came out everyone was afraid of catching "The AIDS" and it didn't help with people speculating how contagious it was (lookup Dr. Fauci and HIV and see some of the things he put out there that scared people which turned out to not be true).

And of course, if you got "The AIDS", then that meant one of two things:

1) You were a drug addict and deserved it

2) you were a homo and deserved it

Kinda like COVID.

If you got COVID it was:

1) because you were selfish and didn't "stay home", and thus, deserved to catch it

2) You didn't wear your mask, and thus deserved to catch it (even if you DID wear your mask)

3) You were doing the "wrong things", and are a bad, horrible person, and thus deserved to catch it.

Anyone who got COVID "early on" was shunned and treated like a Pariah.  

 

[+ Charlie]

HIV was more "disastrous" than COVID for those who got it, at least in the early years, because no one got a mild case of AIDS--if you got it, you probably died of it once symptoms appeared, no matter your age or physical condition. However, people quickly learned how to avoid getting it, and for those in whom symptoms took a long time to develop,  treatments were developed in the 1990s which allowed those who were infected to live with the disease. COVID, on the other hand, is so new that we don't know what the long term effects will be in those who survive the initial infection, which is much more difficult to avoid than HIV--it's a lot easier not to fuck with people than not to breathe around them. (An important difference between the viruses is that SARS-CoV-2 causes COVID symptoms within days, whereas HIV may not cause AIDS symptoms for months or years.)

In the short term, COVID has had a much more dramatic effect on the world than HIV had when it first appeared in the 1980s, or has now, because COVID has spread so quickly to so many more people in more places, but it is possible that over time COVID will seem to be no more "disastrous" than the flu became after the initial pandemic was over in the early 20th century.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Charlie
typos

[+ WilliamM]

11 minutes ago, Charlie said:

HIV was more "disastrous" than COVID for those who got it, at least in the early years, because no one got a mild case of AIDS--if you got it, you probably died of it once symptoms appeared, no matter your age or physical condition. However, people quickly learned how to avoid getting it, and for those in whom symptoms took a long time to develop,  treatments were developed in the 1990s which allowed those who were infected to live with the the disease. COVID, on the other hand, is so new that we don't know what the long term effects will be in those who survive the initial infection, which is much more difficult to avoid than HIV--it's a lot easier not to fuck with people than not to breathe around them. (An important difference between the viruses is that SARS-CoV-2 causes COVID symptoms within days, whereas HIV may not cause AIDS symptoms for months or years.)

In the short term, COVID has had a much more dramatic effect effect on the world than HIV had when it first appeared in the 1980s, or has now, because COVID has spread so quickly to so many more people in more places, but it is possible that over time COVID will seem to be no more "disastrous" than the flu became after the initial pandemic was over in the early 20th century.

[+ WilliamM]

1 minute ago, WilliamM said:

14 minutes ago, Charlie said:

HIV was more "disastrous" than COVID for those who got it, at least in the early years, because no one got a mild case of AIDS--if you got it, you probably died of it once symptoms appeared, no matter your age or physical condition. However, people quickly learned how to avoid getting it, and for those in whom symptoms took a long time to develop,  treatments were developed in the 1990s which allowed those who were infected to live with the the disease. COVID, on the other hand, is so new that we don't know what the long term effects will be in those who survive the initial infection, which is much more difficult to avoid than HIV--it's a lot easier not to fuck with people than not to breathe around them. (An important difference between the viruses is that SARS-CoV-2 causes COVID symptoms within days, whereas HIV may not cause AIDS symptoms for months or years.)

In the short term, COVID has had a much more dramatic effect effect on the world than HIV had when it first appeared in the 1980s, or has now, because COVID has spread so quickly to so many more people in more places, but it is possible that over time COVID will seem to be no more "disastrous" than the flu became after the initial pandemic was over in the early 20th century.

And the covid19 pandemic has obviously divided people politically, especially in the United States on whether or not  to be vaccinated.  That did not happen with the polio vaccine.  We  are  t somewhat lucky that Robert Kennedy,  Junior was too young for AIDS and, more important, polio vaccine arguments

[+ WilliamM]

2 hours ago, Mjonis said:

I see some similarities (not medically) but more social/political.  Remember when HIV first came out everyone was afraid of catching "The AIDS" and it didn't help with people speculating how contagious it was (lookup Dr. Fauci and HIV and see some of the things he put out there that scared people which turned out to not be true).

And of course, if you got "The AIDS", then that meant one of two things:

1) You were a drug addict and deserved it

2) you were a homo and deserved it

Kinda like COVID.

If you got COVID it was:

1) because you were selfish and didn't "stay home", and thus, deserved to catch it

2) You didn't wear your mask, and thus deserved to catch it (even if you DID wear your mask)

3) You were doing the "wrong things", and are a bad, horrible person, and thus deserved to catch it.

Anyone who got COVID "early on" was shunned and treated like a Pariah.  

 

People who work outside their homes do not deserve to get covid

[+ nycman]

4 hours ago, Luv2play said:

I agree with your reasoning but would point out Covid has only been around since the start of 2020 and deaths started occurring in significant numbers around March of that year. So only about 20 months, not 36. 

"I forgot to account for the fact that I suck at math" - Cartman

Thank you for the correction. 

[arnie]

I just remember the polio epidemic and was a participant in the big double blind study to establish effectiveness. There was no anti vax nonsense then.   The biggest thing about it was fear especially as the transmission was unknown.  I remember not going to public pools as that was thought to be a source of the infection.  However while the impact of the victims and their families was dramatic, the overall affect on the population was minimal. Life still went on because there was nothing known to prevent it and it really did not hit that many people.  In 1952 the worst year there was half the current population and there were 58,000 cases and 3000 deaths.   

[+ JEC]

HIV has been much more disastrous.

1.  It has killed more people.   Only because the transmission vehicle is so different, has it taken 30 years to kill 36 million people.   If HIV was a highly transmissible respiratory virus, it would have killed that 36m in a very short time.

2.  Because the gov'ts of the world were so slow to respond, it took over 1 year to even identify that (a) it was a virus and (b) it was sexually transmitted; COVID was identified in days to weeks.

3.  Investments in education, research and treatments have been and continue to be slow to come.   Were this a disease that affected the general public, things would have been much quicker.

4.  30 years since discovery of AIDS there is still no vaccine, no cure.  In part due to the nature of the virus itself, but also in part due to the ongoing lack of investment by government and industry in research and treatments.   Our response to COVID has been markedly different.

5.  For 15 years, there was no effective treatment for HIV.   Everyone who contracted the disease died, and in most cases a slow and torturous death.

6.  There is little or no stigma associated with COVID. 

7.  As opposed to COVID, the gov't is not paying for treatments.   HIV medications remain outrageously expensive making them difficult to obtain for many.

HIV remains a case study in the role that bias plays in medial research and funding.  When a disease affects a majority marginalized population, the urgency the public will just aren't there.

HIV will benefit from COVID, the MRNA approach to develop a vaccine will almost certainly develop a vaccine and/or treatment for HIV and perhaps quite soon.   That's good news, but again the huge sums of money and resources invested in MRNA research was targeted specifically to develop a response to Coronavirus variants (including SARS and now COVID).

The response to these 2 pandemics are vastly different and for one reason only:  the populations affected. 

 

[+ nycman]

2 hours ago, JEC said:

2.  Because the gov'ts of the world were so slow to respond, it took over 1 year to even identify that (a) it was a virus and (b) it was sexually transmitted; COVID was identified in days to weeks

Yes and no. You can’t discount the fact that it is 4 decades later. Our understanding of DNA/RNA and our ability 
to manipulate it is light years away from where it was in 1981. Research that used to take months and months 
can now be automated and completed in less than 45 minutes. There is truth in your statement, but it’s not 
the whole truth. 

 

2 hours ago, JEC said:

HIV will benefit from COVID, the MRNA approach to develop a vaccine will almost certainly develop a vaccine and/or treatment for HIV and perhaps quite soon.   That's good news, but again the huge sums of money and resources invested in MRNA research was targeted specifically to develop a response to Coronavirus variants (including SARS and now COVID).

Not really. mRNA vaccine technology has existed for well over a decade. It is still fundamentally just a vaccine
that presents foreign proteins like any other vaccine. It was just thought to be too expensive to use for mass
vaccination of diseases where we already had traditional (much cheaper and easier to use) vaccines available.

My point is HIV researches have had access to mRNA vaccine technology for a long time, it hasn’t helped. I think
the  HIV (and sickle cell, and Huntington’s disease, and Herpes, etc) game changer will be CRISPR technology,
not mRNA. 

Unfortunately, I think it will also end the human race….but that’s another story. 

[Luv2play]

20 hours ago, Mjonis said:

I see some similarities (not medically) but more social/political.  Remember when HIV first came out everyone was afraid of catching "The AIDS" and it didn't help with people speculating how contagious it was (lookup Dr. Fauci and HIV and see some of the things he put out there that scared people which turned out to not be true).

And of course, if you got "The AIDS", then that meant one of two things:

1) You were a drug addict and deserved it

2) you were a homo and deserved it

Kinda like COVID.

If you got COVID it was:

1) because you were selfish and didn't "stay home", and thus, deserved to catch it

2) You didn't wear your mask, and thus deserved to catch it (even if you DID wear your mask)

3) You were doing the "wrong things", and are a bad, horrible person, and thus deserved to catch it.

Anyone who got COVID "early on" was shunned and treated like a Pariah.  

 

This is totally off base and not worthy of any further comment.

[Luv2play]

4 hours ago, JEC said:

HIV has been much more disastrous.

1.  It has killed more people.   Only because the transmission vehicle is so different, has it taken 30 years to kill 36 million people.   If HIV was a highly transmissible respiratory virus, it would have killed that 36m in a very short time.

2.  Because the gov'ts of the world were so slow to respond, it took over 1 year to even identify that (a) it was a virus and (b) it was sexually transmitted; COVID was identified in days to weeks.

3.  Investments in education, research and treatments have been and continue to be slow to come.   Were this a disease that affected the general public, things would have been much quicker.

4.  30 years since discovery of AIDS there is still no vaccine, no cure.  In part due to the nature of the virus itself, but also in part due to the ongoing lack of investment by government and industry in research and treatments.   Our response to COVID has been markedly different.

5.  For 15 years, there was no effective treatment for HIV.   Everyone who contracted the disease died, and in most cases a slow and torturous death.

6.  There is little or no stigma associated with COVID. 

7.  As opposed to COVID, the gov't is not paying for treatments.   HIV medications remain outrageously expensive making them difficult to obtain for many.

HIV remains a case study in the role that bias plays in medial research and funding.  When a disease affects a majority marginalized population, the urgency the public will just aren't there.

HIV will benefit from COVID, the MRNA approach to develop a vaccine will almost certainly develop a vaccine and/or treatment for HIV and perhaps quite soon.   That's good news, but again the huge sums of money and resources invested in MRNA research was targeted specifically to develop a response to Coronavirus variants (including SARS and now COVID).

The response to these 2 pandemics are vastly different and for one reason only:  the populations affected. 

 

I was in my 30s when HIV/AIDs struck and have lived through the entire history of it. I have seen it up close in Canada, the US and Europe.  Heere in Canada there were the 4 H's initially identified with the disease. Homos, hemophiliacs, Haitians and heroin addicts. It wasn't just restricted to gay men. It turned out our national blood supply was tainted and many heterosexuals were also infected, hence the hemophiliacs and others who underwent blood transfusions.

So governments did react quickly but it took time for the science to produce effective treatments. There was prejudice against gays and immigrant groups like the Haitians, which form a large disapora population in Montreal. And it was irrational. But at least here in Canada, we had somewhat more enlightened political leadship than south of the border. Same thing with Covid today ( with the exception of Alberta and Saskatchewan, our two most American like provinces).

[lonely_john]

1 minute ago, Luv2play said:

with the exception of Alberta and Saskatchewan, our two most American like provinces.

I'm also shocked by the pandemic management in those provinces. They are now paying the price of their bad decisions.

[+ RJD]

6 hours ago, JEC said:

7.  As opposed to COVID, the gov't is not paying for treatments.   HIV medications remain outrageously expensive making them difficult to obtain for many.

Actually, while HIV meds are extremely expensive without any "discounts,"  the manufacturers readily provide coupons to be used in conjunction with your health insurance.  Someone very close to me is HIV+,  employed making a decent wage, and has health insurance through his employer.  His meds are close to $2,500/month.  His insurance covers about $300 of that.  The coupons bring his co-pay to $0.00.  He's fortunate that he hasn't paid a dime out-of-pocket in the four years he's been taking these life-saving meds. 

I don't know if it differs if you have insurance through the ACA, but my friend just had to show he had insurance in place for the coupons to be accepted.