Barebacking and boundaries

[Wolfer]

I now carry condoms ALL the time, and have made a project out of finding the best ones. (Trojan Supra non-latex, no odor.)

I really like Durex Real Feeling. They're more expensive and their use-by date is a lot shorter than other condoms but they feel really nice, both for the top and bottom. They feel softer and smoother and seem to have much less friction.

[Courage]

Re: Costs of and requirements for PreP.

 

Pardon my ignorance--I only have become active to any degree in the past few years. Besides the actual pills, what are the costs and requirements for use of PreP?

 

Someone mentioned regular testing. Is that about it?

 

Funny story: when I asked (on @Funguy 's rec) about Gardisil as an older adult and my doc looked at me and asked if I was going to be using sex workers. Awkward!

[+ robear]

In my experience, the protocol for Truvada is that it is only prescribed 3 months at a time. Therefore, you have to see your physician 4x a year for a prescription, at which time they will perform HIV and other STD testing, as well as kidney function testing. Your costs for that will depend on your medical coverage.

 

Other than that, I'm not aware of any costs associated with PrEP.

[+ honcho]

In the Kaiser PrEP program, you don't have to see your doctor 4 times a year; it is handled by a nurse-practitioner who reviews your lab tests (which do have to be done 4 times a year), but that is done without your presence being required.

 

The copay for PrEP under Kaiser depends on which of the many flavors of contracts Kaiser offers. For me, it costs $25/month, *or* if I get a 3 month supply sent via US mail instead of picking it up in person, $50 for 3 months, and I don't pay anything for the lab tests.

 

An interesting moral dilemma is that Kaiser is billing medicare for $630 of the $1500 / month, and a fair fraction of the lab tests. While Kaiser has decided that it is going to save money (statistically) by putting as many people on PrEP as it can, I feel conflicted about having the taxpayers subsidize it.

 

(For the record, I have an undetectable HIV+ boyfriend who urged me to go on PrEP, even though we're both aware of the undetectable = un-transmisable research).

[mike carey]

An interesting moral dilemma is that Kaiser is billing medicare for $630 of the $1500 / month, and a fair fraction of the lab tests. While Kaiser has decided that it is going to save money (statistically) by putting as many people on PrEP as it can, I feel conflicted about having the taxpayers subsidize it.

I wouldn't feel guilty about it if I were you. If the government sets up programs of any type to provide services to eligible people it does that because it has decided that those people need the services. It's not charity. In this case, Kaiser as your health care provider has identified Medicare as a source of some of the funds for the health services it provides you. You have no cause to worry about that or any other way that Kaiser obtains funding for the care they provide you. If you still feel guilty donate to a sexual health charity that supports people who are not eligible for any government funding for their care.

[Rudynate]

In the Kaiser PrEP program, you don't have to see your doctor 4 times a year; it is handled by a nurse-practitioner who reviews your lab tests (which do have to be done 4 times a year), but that is done without your presence being required.

 

The copay for PrEP under Kaiser depends on which of the many flavors of contracts Kaiser offers. For me, it costs $25/month, *or* if I get a 3 month supply sent via US mail instead of picking it up in person, $50 for 3 months, and I don't pay anything for the lab tests.

 

An interesting moral dilemma is that Kaiser is billing medicare for $630 of the $1500 / month, and a fair fraction of the lab tests. While Kaiser has decided that it is going to save money (statistically) by putting as many people on PrEP as it can, I feel conflicted about having the taxpayers subsidize it.

 

(For the record, I have an undetectable HIV+ boyfriend who urged me to go on PrEP, even though we're both aware of the undetectable = un-transmisable research).

 

 

Doesn't Truvada push you into the donut hole? I did the math and figured two or three months of Truvada would trigger the donut hole, so i have been buying a generic from India at around 75.00 month. The PrEP Clinic at Kaiser called me and asked why I wasn't refilling my Truvada script, and i told them why. They said, "We want to continue to follow you and do all of your testing." They also cautioned me that the product from India may not be manufactured to US standards. But it comes from one of India's largest pharmaceutical manufacturers. HIV service organizations recommend it for people who cant get PrEP covered and have to pay OOP.

[+ honcho]

Doesn't Truvada push you into the donut hole? I did the math and figured two or three months of Truvada would trigger the donut hole, so i have been buying a generic from India at around 75.00 month.

 

I may be technically in the "donut hole", but under my plan, neither Kaiser nor Medicare have billed me for anything beyond what I stated. My Medicare premium went up because I accepted a buy-out from my former landlord, and it counted as cash-income in one year, and pushed me above the threshold for the highest Medicare premium, but I expect that to go back down shortly.

[Rudynate]

I may be technically in the "donut hole", but under my plan, neither Kaiser nor Medicare have billed me for anything beyond what I stated. My Medicare premium went up because I accepted a buy-out from my former landlord, and it counted as cash-income in one year, and pushed me above the threshold for the highest Medicare premium, but I expect that to go back down shortly.

 

I guess I may to see a member services rep and have them go over things. I met with one before I applied for medicare. he looked at my list of scripts and said I would be money ahead finding a way to stay on regular coverage (at over 900.00/month) rather than going on medicare because of the donut hole.

[Cyd_StVincent]

Being a sex worker I feel like I get pushed to go on PrEP weekly by internet ads or a doctor derailing our completely unrelated session into trying to propose I start. I don't tolerate PrEP well, and I prefer not to need it. I have found that although playing safe limits my clientelle it provides me with clients I get along with better. Also, having lots of different interactions with different bodies, there are so many things you can pick up and pass on - having worked as a sexual health counselor for 8 years - for me sexual health does not start and end at HIV. Antibiotic resistant gonnorrhea, or really any type of gonnorrhea is also something I would rather not spend time dealing with or telling sexual partners I may have infected them. So I use condoms with all but a main partner and very, very occasionally for porn.

 

To the OP I would suggest telling escorts outright you prefer to use condoms before sex. Body language communication is not very clear during the hot and heavy moments, setting up an expectation will enable you to relax and even tease each other with the idea of it without you having to have the shitty feelings after. I think if you don't feel comfortable with bareback sex then why not listen to and respect that, just because the cultural is changing doesn't mean you have to drop your own boundaries.

[Jazziz81]

Wanted to try a Male massage therapist/escort for the first time. I've been doing my homework reading about many occasions when the therapist is not safe and "slips" your dick up his ass or tries to top you bareback while you're laying face down on the massage table. As a Bi male, I have never had such incidents dealing with female therapists/escorts wanting to have unprotected sex. (my experience) But hear about a ton of MSM encounters throwing caution to the wind. I May have to leave this one alone and it remain a fantasy.

[MikeBiDude]

reading about many occasions when the therapist is not safe and "slips" your dick up his ass or tries to top you bareback while you're laying face down on the massage table

I’d dispute your “many” therapists trying this. They are in the minority. Just like media, outrageous stories get the most publicity.

[Jazziz81]

I’d dispute your “many” therapists trying this. They are in the minority. Just like media, outrageous stories get the most publicity.

 

Let's hope so. I really want to try this.

[MikeBiDude]

Let's hope so. I really want to try this.

Ive have hundreds of massages 100% naked face down on a table/bed and have NEVER had a masseur try and top me. You’ll be fine...

[LookingAround]

Wanted to try a Male massage therapist/escort for the first time. I've been doing my homework reading about many occasions when the therapist is not safe and "slips" your dick up his ass or tries to top you bareback while you're laying face down on the massage table. As a Bi male, I have never had such incidents dealing with female therapists/escorts wanting to have unprotected sex. (my experience) But hear about a ton of MSM encounters throwing caution to the wind. I May have to leave this one alone and it remain a fantasy.

I’ve had more MSM erotic massages than you can count and not never once had this happen or attempted. Please.

 

Kinda think a lot of fantasies being posted as fact. Stop worrying.

[Wolfer]

Wanted to try a Male massage therapist/escort for the first time. I've been doing my homework reading about many occasions when the therapist is not safe and "slips" your dick up his ass or tries to top you bareback while you're laying face down on the massage table. As a Bi male, I have never had such incidents dealing with female therapists/escorts wanting to have unprotected sex. (my experience) But hear about a ton of MSM encounters throwing caution to the wind. I May have to leave this one alone and it remain a fantasy.

I would look for recommendations on good therapists here on the forum and go with one of them. There's no reason not to have this fantasy become a reality if you've done your research. Go ahead and enjoy yourself!

[maninsoma]

Ive have hundreds of massages 100% naked face down on a table/bed and have NEVER had a masseur try and top me. You’ll be fine...

 

I have had a few masseurs top me, and some have tried to enter me without putting on a condom first. I don't want to create paranoia because unless the therapist is a rapist, the client can control whether the therapist can enter him. It's pretty easy to tell as a client if the therapist is trying to top you and unless you are totally spaced out it also should be quite obvious whether he took any time out to unwrap a condom and wrap up his dick. Either wrapped or unwrapped, if you don't want the therapist to penetrate you then say so and don't just go along with the flow as his dick starts pressing against your hole.

[MikeBiDude]

I have had a few masseurs top me, and some have tried to enter me without putting on a condom first. I don't want to create paranoia because unless the therapist is a rapist, the client can control whether the therapist can enter him. It's pretty easy to tell as a client if the therapist is trying to top you and unless you are totally spaced out it also should be quite obvious whether he took any time out to unwrap a condom and wrap up his dick. Either wrapped or unwrapped, if you don't want the therapist to penetrate you then say so and don't just go along with the flow as his dick starts pressing against your hole.

I’m not sure why you quote me on your reply...I stand by what I said.

[maninsoma]

I’m not sure why you quote me on your reply...I stand by what I said.

 

I quoted you because my experience is different than yours. Instead of suggesting that the person worried about a masseur trying to top him simply not worry because it NEVER happens, I think he should instead be reassured by knowing that he can set limits with which he is comfortable.

[corndog]

Some additional food for thought...

If a massage (consensually) evolves into sex, and a condom is part of the equation, there is a very good chance that oil-based massage products are going to be used as lube or at least left over as residual from foreplay. Condoms with oil-based products is a big no-no.

[Rudynate]

I can't

I quoted you because my experience is different than yours. Instead of suggesting that the person worried about a masseur trying to top him simply not worry because it NEVER happens, I think he should instead be reassured by knowing that he can set limits with which he is comfortable.

 

 

Nothings impossible, I suppose. But I have difficulty imagining anyone feeling so powerless that they can't resist an unwelcome sexual overture on a masseurs table.

[+ oldNbusted]

Kinda think a lot of fantasies being posted...

 

Maybe the forum should add a 'creative writing' subforum?

[big-n-tall]

I can't

 

Nothings impossible, I suppose. But I have difficulty imagining anyone feeling so powerless that they can't resist an unwelcome sexual overture on a masseurs table.

 

It has never happened to me, there aren't too many who would dare attempt to do something to me physically without my permission.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's powerless per se, but there are people who are so timid and unassuming that something this could happen with ease. The person may be too afraid or scared or actually taken over by the sensations that against their better judgment, they allow it to happen. For example, the OP gave in to the sensation instead of just stopping what was happening.

 

As you said anything is possible.

[Rudynate]

It has never happened to me, there aren't too many who would dare attempt to do something to me physically without my permission.

 

Anyway, I don't think it's powerless per se, but there are people who are so timid and unassuming that something this could happen with ease. The person may be too afraid or scared or actually taken over by the sensations that against their better judgment, they allow it to happen. For example, the OP gave in to the sensation instead of just stopping what was happening.

 

As you said anything is possible.

 

All flavors of powerlessness.

[+ Eric Hassan]

I want to go back to the OP with my response. I've read the follow-up posts about PrEP, safety, access, etc.

 

What I think was misssed (and @Wolfer - please feel free to tell me if I'm speaking too much for you or getting it wrong) was that his boundaries were not respected. There may have been opportunities for clear communication that were missed, and it does seem like the situation quickly turned to PrEP and safety - skipping completely over the crossed boundaries.

 

I want to make it clear to this community that protecting yourself in sex is a personal choice - that you have the right to choose what works for you, the obligation to communicate your choices and boundaries clearly, the responsibility to manage the consequences of your choice, the right to expect your partners will honor your boundaries, and the right to enjoy sexual encounters on your terms.

 

PrEP is not an excuse to bareback. PrEP is not an excuse to shame those who choose condoms. PrEP is not a pass to act like a dick. PrEP is not an excuse to ignore the preferences of others. Nobody "has to" or "should" be on PrEP. Using "I'm on PrEP" or "you should be on PrEP" to get your way during sex, or to shame/guilt someone else is inexcusable.

 

The science is clear about the efficacy of PrEP but you know what? Some people don't care. Some people don't believe it. Some people don't want it. Some people will use it and still want to use condoms.

 

I'm concerned that the prevailing conversation about PrEP is a battle about the morality of barebacking and I think fighting about who is right in the world of sexual safety re-traumatizes folks routinely. I'm a PrEP user and advocate because it makes sense to me. I think PrEP is a useful tool, and one of many ways we can help insure the health and safety of our community and world.

 

All of that said, I'm sorry, @Wolfer that your boundaries were not respected, and I hope that we learn from this and get better about listening to others and either choosing to respect boundaries or stay home and fuck our hands.

[Wolfer]

I want to go back to the OP with my response. I've read the follow-up posts about PrEP, safety, access, etc.

 

What I think was misssed (and @Wolfer - please feel free to tell me if I'm speaking too much for you or getting it wrong) was that his boundaries were not respected. There may have been opportunities for clear communication that were missed, and it does seem like the situation quickly turned to PrEP and safety - skipping completely over the crossed boundaries.

 

I want to make it clear to this community that protecting yourself in sex is a personal choice - that you have the right to choose what works for you, the obligation to communicate your choices and boundaries clearly, the responsibility to manage the consequences of your choice, the right to expect your partners will honor your boundaries, and the right to enjoy sexual encounters on your terms.

 

PrEP is not an excuse to bareback. PrEP is not an excuse to shame those who choose condoms. PrEP is not a pass to act like a dick. PrEP is not an excuse to ignore the preferences of others. Nobody "has to" or "should" be on PrEP. Using "I'm on PrEP" or "you should be on PrEP" to get your way during sex, or to shame/guilt someone else is inexcusable.

 

The science is clear about the efficacy of PrEP but you know what? Some people don't care. Some people don't believe it. Some people don't want it. Some people will use it and still want to use condoms.

 

I'm concerned that the prevailing conversation about PrEP is a battle about the morality of barebacking and I think fighting about who is right in the world of sexual safety re-traumatizes folks routinely. I'm a PrEP user and advocate because it makes sense to me. I think PrEP is a useful tool, and one of many ways we can help insure the health and safety of our community and world.

 

All of that said, I'm sorry, @Wolfer that your boundaries were not respected, and I hope that we learn from this and get better about listening to others and either choosing to respect boundaries or stay home and fuck our hands.

Thank you for this reply, it really touches my heart.

 

Yes, I was wondering whether the escort that made me cum in his ass had crossed a boundary of mine. I think what makes it a little confusing for me is that a part of me really enjoys the sensation of barebacking and I think this is what sometimes makes my brain go cross-eyed in the moment: I don't want to bareback but I kinda do. Maybe I was giving off mixed signals because of this so he thought it would be fine.

 

I know he had no bad intentions on his part and perhaps that's what makes me even more confused. Because other boundaries that I've communicated with him he's been extremely respectful of.

 

I just don't know.