DWnyc

Well you don’t know what I may or may not have said in the entire conversations. And Im reminded every Thanksgiving and college reunion that if I broke off ties with everyone I disagreed with I wouldn’t have anyone in my life. Apart from all you close friends on this forum 😊

To be fair, they may genuinely feel this, and it doesn’t necessarily make them racist. At worst I’d say they could be naive or tone deaf in not reading the room or understanding how this may come across. And perhaps forgetting the entitlement / privilege that allows them to express this. My bigger issue is with those who deny the existence of problems they haven’t experienced, meaning they lack empathy or willingness to consider testimony on things that may be unfamiliar or uncomfortable. Like someone middle class wondering out loud why inflation is a problem for so many millions on products such as milk and eggs. Or any man opining on what it’s like to be a woman (in the workplace … walking alone at night … etc).

To be fair to us all in America, I can’t think of a single country I’m aware of that doesn’t have deep faultlines on all sorts of issues once you scratch the surface. We also have very positive national traits of openness and allowing self criticism, so we talk about all this a lot more. Easy to fall into a trap of seeing ourselves as doomed or worse than elsewhere, but I don’t think that’s the case.

I’m just remembering an anecdote from someone I met socially who was a provider, and Asian American. He said his “provider profile” was that he was a visitor (note, not an immigrant) from Thailand, with an accent. That got him more clients, repeats, higher rates etc than being what he was Ie a kid from california who happened to be of Asian descent.

Sure, but no one is having an intellectual argument citing references with their gut when making choices based on what has been internalized over years … maybe ones whole life.

That’s great, anecdotally. Societal trends dictate expectations, however. And learned behavior, to conform or just get through each day often gravitates to those. Change, leadership, innovation … in all aspects of our world, usually come from those who, as you put it, escape the norm. So here’s to more of you!

We have huge differences in systemic approach in US vs some of these other countries. We have self segregation through where we live and therefore who we mix with at school, sports clubs etc and by the time were old enough to go to college or work and make our own decisions some of this becomes deeply entrenched. And to be clear it’s not just whites vs everyone else. If you’re Asian and have never known someone African American socially … or if you’re East Indian vs Latinos etc (having a maid or gardener doesn’t count) it’s not surprising that you have “personal preference” biased against the unfamiliar, whether it’s on music, food, or sexual attraction. The personal preference issue is very complicated and can’t be solved through legislation or overnight but there are clearly societal causes since there are such significant differences by geography / country in mixed race interaction. But I’d settle for people just being nicer to each other as they expressed that preference.

In a business that’s so unregulated and private it’s only natural that the worst of human behavior can come out. Who’s going to file a complaint? Or even gather data to address disbelief / denial of trends? Add to that the issue of what we call “personal preference” to allow validation as we discuss this all. Then add further to that entitlement (eg through price differentials) and it’s inevitable these dynamics will exist. @Jamie21 From what I know of the UK it doesn’t surprise me race is less of a factor (I think Toronto and Montreal are similar) and there’s a lot of history and baggage in the US on this issue. And within the US there’s probably difference in geography. One observation I’ve had when traveling is a lot more mixed race couples (especially black and white) of all orientations in Europe and Canada than in the US. Or look at the lines outside nightclubs (again, gay or straight) in eg London vs Chicago and you’ll see a lot more segregation (even if through personal choice).

I heard from more than one white friend (clients) who have said something on the lines of, given stereotypes of higher rates of crime (violence, drug use etc) among African Americans, they will avoid that demographic in providers since such meetings are already fraught with risks.

I’ve heard that there is an effective tier just as there may be based on age and some other factors. And that clients are more likely to haggle with providers or color, both before and after making an appointment. I’ve also heard from more than one provider of color that they feel clients can be more demanding / punitive / rude when things don’t go as planned eg they are held more accountable on being late, not being able to perform, pics not regarded as accurate etc. And that clients are more likely to be flakey / cancel at last minute etc. with them. Difficult to verify but I would say the perception is definitely there.

Totally fine 😊

Providers have often suggested meeting somewhere like this when neither of us can host or wish to pay for a hotel. I’ve always declined as it seems rather bizarre to be going the premium route in a place like that. On the rare occasions I’ve ventured inside I’ve seen faces familiar from the websites and I often wonder are the providers there just to relax and meet people “off the clock” or is it a place of business. Maybe both, just like on online dating apps. No judgement, just an observation.

He may have been a known irritant. These places are often full of them and management knows to ignore as much as needed to keep the peace.

Perhaps I (and a few others) differ from the OP as we may be considering possibilities in general, rather than from a specific situation.

Thanks for the public service! Not to mention a professionally run aesthetically pleasing site.

Non consensual behavior is not the norm and shouldn’t be tolerated. Sounds like an outlier.

And some providers will only engage in that with a minimum of 2-3 hours booking, presumably because it affects their ability to perform with another client for quite a while afterward

I’d be surprised if ESC survives too much longer especially as it occupies a lot of space (3 floors if I remember correctly) in a high rent zone with a dying business model. Fun fact: Donald Trump voted in the school next to ESC in 2016. I remember watching some tv news correspondent covering the wait for his arrival from right in front of the entrance. Felt sorry for the guys coming out of there (though it’s a shared entrance with other businesses) without realizing they might end up on national tv!

I have said in pretty much every comm on this subject that one should appreciate the majority of providers who serve widely. The issue here isn’t complaining; as someone who typically doesn’t have a problem getting appointments with providers I seek, I can’t rest on that entitlement or take it for granted when it seems some others might be excluded and in an offensive way.

I don’t disagree and that’s the way it should be. I was addressing the point about providers potentially not being able to engage (even for $ rather than their own choice) with those they might not find attractive, and saying that most are likely already doing so.

Helpful (but painful!) reminder of the frequent perception imbalance between clients and providers 😊

With due respect, and obviously I don’t know you so this is not meant in any targeted way, you may be surprised to know what some of your providers may have really felt about you on the “hot scale”, regardless of how you might see yourself. I certainly wouldn’t want to know, especially with those I felt good enough to tip heavily or want a repeat. Sure everyone can have a type. And if that’s a basis for providers selecting clients, let those who screen have the balls to state it publicly on their profiles. It is an open secret among those who take interest in the issue that some providers have a very hostile view towards certain types. And that includes rejecting clients in an abusive way rather than making diplomatic excuses that avoid awkwardness or even just silence if they really feel unable to engage with them. Thankfully that seems to apply only to a handful.

If a friendly relationship emerges from these scenarios, I don’t see it as paying people to be your friend. You’re paying them to be your barber, dentist whatever … any warmth or common interests you discover in the process is a bonus, not the purpose of the transaction. And I wouldn’t want to stop paying my barber if we started becoming friendly. It may just be that we have a different worldview, including what constitutes “friendship”, and that’s totally fine. I don’t think we differ on what expectations one might have might have from such interactions. I’m fine calling someone I occasionally see and enjoy spending time with a friend and wouldn’t restrict the word to those in my inner circle. I wouldn’t necessarily invite them to my wedding or expect them to share burden of difficult times I might be experiencing. It’s fine if others use different words for that looser tie. And a practical point as well. People move, their lives change, they may fall out with us and so forth. Always good to leave the door open for new people entering one’s life and people rarely do so as a close friend from the first interaction.

We frequently hear that donations are not for services but for time. If you’re not even receiving that or any compensation, it’s an issue that needs to be publicized as that’s the only way to address this unprofessionalism. And it would send a signal to others in more relevant geographies that there is recourse that clients can access. Otherwise, with due respect, you’re just venting and that doesn’t help anyone.

The last example you have is fact based. Isn’t it worth sharing details of the provider for the community? If the provider wishes to challenge your account he can do so …