DWnyc

Isn’t the point of the industry we are discussing to make sex as accessible as veg or fruit in the market? I simply do not understand the logic of “it’s not on in escorting”. We live in a commercial world where the price of delivering babies and burying the dead and every aspect of human existence in between has a price determined by negotiation. What makes escorting different?

Agreed but there is still the issue of if the provider is accurately pricing their time relative to what the market will tolerate. Some client negotiation may be knee jerk, but some of it could also be either a gut feeling or actual knowledge that pricing is out of whack with the market. Providers have more ability to organize than clients in this industry and even that doesn’t typically happen, so it’s not like a David/Goliath confrontation.

Many of these examples sound like symptoms of extreme drug use (eg paranoia, unstable moods, erratic communication etc). I’ve had several experiences leaving me scared for my own safety beyond simple awkwardness (eg provider suddenly accusing me of being a plant from the government and starting to go through my clothes trying to find ID, or spraying me with a sanitizing aerosol can because he was worried about COVID) and usually these came out of nowhere after perfectly normal starts. On the issue of overly talkative providers I’ve often wondered if the profession makes one more prone to loneliness, through being solitary and stigmatized, without industry cameraderie or being able to talk about such a huge part of one’s life socially.

Check out intermittent fasting. Not for everyone and requires a huge amount of personal discipline (especially in social settings) and unlearning generations of food lessons some of which are referenced above (eg large breakfast vs no breakfast etc). Depending on one’s personal situation and comorbidities it can help for weight loss and A1C / insulin regulation. Used to be considered a fad but now has a growing body of medical research behind it.

And 50% of my day job is negotiating with my company’s service providers. My compensation and continued employment is tied to how successful I am doing that. My negotiating counterparty’s are also, I presume.

If there is any scenario that you have experienced or are aware of where negotiations (the word “haggling” inserts unnecessary bias) result in a lower price accepted by a provider, and if there was perfect information and everyone knew about it, one would expect more negotiation across comparable offerings. It would be irrational behavior for this not to be the case in a capitalist market. Can’t get more unregulated and capitalist than the industry we’re discussing here. It’s not necessarily accurate to characterize negotiation time (for providers) as uncompensated. That’s part of the “marketing and biz dev” time they have to put in to generate the actual dollars that come in (along with eg responding to client queries and changing the bedsheets after a client visit during hours that are not directly paid for). I assume the rate that I agree to pay a provider includes a pro rated allocation for those types of items.

If a provider can’t or won’t give me their usual service and leave me unsatisfied because of that, I’d rather not waste my money on them and better to clear that up before an appointment is made. I’d just they rather state their criteria in their profiles. But of course they know that will make them look like a holes and they would lose business from a much broader segment than they are singling out. If they require photos for their security or any other issues, let them state that too and apply it universally. And see where it gets them in terms of inbound inquiries.

Let’s add the other factor even though this is uncomfortable for some to address: provider prejudice (“preference”) based on race, age, weight etc. One giveaway on if motives are innocent (eg security) vs something less pleasant is: when is the picture requested? Is it after everything has been agreed including price and time and just an admin detaiL? Or is it prior to deciding price or even if the appointment will happen at all? The client is hiring based primarily on appearance so will typically want to see what the provider looks like. Does the provider need to know what the client looks like in order to provide service? we have seen divergent views whenever this topic has come up before. Every provider can do as they wish, but if it’s a business (rather than monetizing a hookup that could happen anyway) and providers want professional respect, they should not discriminate so not require a photo, which I suspect is behind 90%+ of requests. Thankfully, the vast majority of providers don’t have this requirement (which reiterates that even the nonoffensive drivers aren’t felt by the industry as a whole).

And part of the issue will always be what rate to providers end up receiving regardless of their official rates. Even if not published they can be quoted when you make an inquiry. I can quote you $300/hour but if you haggle with me more than you would with others, and if I’m more keen to get a booking even at lower price as my deal flow is lower than it might be all other things being equal, I might settle for $250 or $200. I’m not going to broadcast that so my published rate / initial quote will still be $300. And a client may still be more likely to cancel without telling me etc because of the reasons we are discussing, so effectively my rate could become zero, While my peer might still end up getting $300 with no pushback or be bargained down to $270. And the outside world can say “they’re both quoting $300, there’s no difference, where’s the problem?” Not saying this is the norm but that’s part of the potential dynamic we’re discussing here including addressing those who don’t / can’t accept that these situations occur.

For the problems to go away, society has to change. That happens, but it takes generations … we think less in America now about who might secretly be a Catholic like we once used to, for instance. Legislation can help reduce the problems by setting a standard of expected behavior, and would provide a path for recourse. Would also allow better data gathering and allow for more transparency on pricing. But the problems won’t disappear any time soon. I can’t see even in a legalized environment many clients or providers being willing to go on the record given the stigma associated with this hobby.

Ok … but that’s the point of the discussion …to ask if it happens as a general trend, starting from the premise that it shouldn’t happen. Our individual moral compasses and track record are not up for scrutiny here.

To reiterate what has been said many times before, so not an original thought: Just don’t rely on anyone (provider, client, hookup, partner etc) telling you they’re on PREP or that they have a health status that influences your behavior. People don’t often know their actual status, or they may be lying for whatever reason etc and you have to take responsibility for your own health, on the metrics important to you. And there’s that heat of the moment thing as well …

You may not understand it, but it happens and that’s the main point of this discussion: To acknowledge that it happens. But not just for race. Unregulated markets mean both the best and worst of capitalist traits, and some from those who consider themselves stronger will inevitably bully those they consider to be weaker. It’s been the same since caveman days. There’s a flip side to this, worthy of another thread … about when providers bully clients and ask for more than what was agreed to, and do they play that game with some more than others. The power dynamic between a fit young attractive provider and an aging closeted unfit weaker client of any race (but some races may be more vulnerable) isn’t difficult to imagine. Can you imagine bad behavior from regular providers you like and trust? No, neither can I. Do you like and trust every provider you’ve ever met …?

Some non US based sites do list pricing, but usually I think it’s just from asking. One of the issues earlier in the thread was the degree to which some providers are negotiated down based on factors such as race (but could also include age etc). So published / upfront rates are not the only indicator for this discussion, it’s also a question of where one ends up after the back and forth. Not to mention things like tipping, paying for extra time etc where there may be differences in how the average client treats the average provider all else being equal.

A provider’s personal preferences aside, I think it’s not just a matter of a few hundred dollars, but their calculation of their entire livelihood, given prevailing client norms.

My anecdotal experience is that culturally (on the US east coast at least) things have shifted from bare being a hushed secret ask, to the norm. This applies to both the provider scene and hookup culture in general. Safe now seems something you have to request when making an appointment, bare being the assumed preference. Won’t be apparent if people are filtering for “safe only” to begin with.

I’ve seen the opposite actually (higher price with condoms as “it’s much harder to perform”) though not that much of a markup. I’ve also seen more than one provider refuse to meet at all if that was a requirement.

My unscientific non exhaustive anecdotal observations in the NY market are different (on Latinos being the most expensive) but we may not be looking at the same market segments or be comparing apples to apples.

I once had a provider who himself finished a little early in the session. I don’t need or even want providers to finish and I always assumed they preferred it that way (ie save themselves for the next client). He then said he was no good after that, and things became very awkward … he suggested we end and he’d make up the time (prepaid) in a future booking. It was early in my hiring days and I didn’t know better and reassured him it was ok, I was actually flattered, it was hot watching him get excited etc … I guess I was the one giving him the BFE …

You’re giving too much credit to some people. And those movements for all the good they may have done have also triggered counter movements on a mass scale too. “All lives matter” for instance.

(Btw I’m super impressed you found a Pashtun) It’s a combo of factors;, race isnt the only one but it could be significant, all else being equal. I recall an obnoxious post on Grindr on the lines of “if you’re above 40 or ethnic you better be hot or have a big dick”.

Serious question. If you have rejected on race, why is it hurtful to face the same treatment? I understand being rejected is never fun, but aren’t you being played by your own rules?

And I’ll let you have the last word even with your consistent framing of this a certain way. Take a look at some of the reactions above and how such conversations go generally, with eye rolls, “I don’t experience it so it can’t happen”, “i‘m not that way so it can’t be so”, “that’s the way it is, deal with it” etc ., and halting some discussions as “no longer on topic” (aka “uncomfortable”) all while other discussions in parallel veer off on every tangent imaginable. Some of this is the silence of the good people, but some of it more sinister. I assume you care about this issue a lot based on your comments, but focusing on our disagreements doesn’t actually serve the cause given all that’s around us if we are (as I assume) on the same side on the main issues.

As I think back to some experiences. I think some of this is situation specific. In one case a growing friendship made it harder for me to keep making bookings; the provider was more open about how he hated aspects of his work and it felt almost abusive to make him perform for my pleasure (even though he benefited from payment). In another case I felt obligated to book more regularly than i would have for my new friend, particularly since he was struggling financially. But the sessions became increasingly stressful for both of us as neither of us were our normal social selves during them, so it felt inauthentic with a friend. Our last few bookings had me essentially giving him fees like a gift with no provider work, until he himself told me to stop.

Who’s minimizing here? But I don’t think is possible or healthy to reduce everything to “is this person x-ist” (racist, ageist, sizeist if such a word exists and so on) and then make existential judgements on them. The reality is often far more nuanced, and I doubt there is a single one of us who escapes having prejudice (ie pre judging) of some sort or views that others might find offensive. These things vary across geography, generation, time etc as well. And also differ in importance to some, so I might be most offended by age discrimination, you by race and so forth. Coming back to the OP, our collective views influence what the market can support, and where such prejudice exists it does affect pricing. We’ve discussed that elsewhere in the forum when providers have wondered why their rates can’t be higher or why they can’t have stricter terms with clients. So yes there are obviously negative consequences to all this. Sounds like you and I differ on how we change the world on these matters, but that’s ok ... I agree the world should change, and that’s more than you’ll get from some others.