Hiring in Middle East?

[ShortCutie7]

18 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

What specific "war zones" are you talking about in Egyptian cities or in Dubai?

Or do you feel that the huge Middle East region as a whole is likely to blow up at any minute?

There is war/unrest going on that impacts the entire huge region.  It is obviously not going on everywhere or even in most of the region in any given time, but you really think that it wouldn’t be safer to go to say, Japan, than Egypt or Dubai?

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

36 minutes ago, ShortCutie7 said:

There is war/unrest going on that impacts the entire huge region.  It is obviously not going on everywhere or even in most of the region in any given time, but you really think that it wouldn’t be safer to go to say, Japan, than Egypt or Dubai?

Japan is a short missile distance away from China and North Korea.  Yikes!  I'm saying this to put it in perspective.  Faith and Fear are both believing in something you can't see, and take just as much effort.  I have not been to Japan or Asia yet to compare; but, I wouldn't fear visiting Cairo again.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Vegas_Millennial

[ShortCutie7]

36 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Japan is a short missile distance away from China and North Korea.  Yikes!  I'm saying this to put it in perspective.  Faith and Fear are both believing in something you can't see, and take just as much effort.

I have not been to Japan or Asia yet to compare.  But I wouldn't fear visiting Cairo again.

Understood!  I guess my point (which has been lost at this point) is that I don’t personally understand why someone would choose as a vacation destination, as a different example Haiti (which has had lots of violence lately) over any other tropical island? 
 

ETA: I’m not saying “don’t go” or “avoid at all costs” if you want to go or it’s on your bucket list; I’m saying “why now?  Isn’t there somewhere else you want to go that you can go now and then go to the Middle East when things are more relaxed?”  I would love to eventually see the pyramids, but I know I’d be a nervous wreck and wouldn’t be able to enjoy myself if I were to go now, but that’s just me.

Edited December 26, 2024 by ShortCutie7
ETA

[CuriousByNature]

1 hour ago, ShortCutie7 said:

Understood!  I guess my point (which has been lost at this point) is that I don’t personally understand why someone would choose as a vacation destination, as a different example Haiti (which has had lots of violence lately) over any other tropical island? 
 

ETA: I’m not saying “don’t go” or “avoid at all costs” if you want to go or it’s on your bucket list; I’m saying “why now?  Isn’t there somewhere else you want to go that you can go now and then go to the Middle East when things are more relaxed?”  I would love to eventually see the pyramids, but I know I’d be a nervous wreck and wouldn’t be able to enjoy myself if I were to go now, but that’s just me.

If this is the case, perhaps consider doing a cruise that visits Alexandria?  You can join a ship excursion to visit Cairo and Giza and be surrounded by other cruise ship tourists and not stand out in any way at all. This may be more comfortable than visiting as a solo tourist.  Perhaps ironically, the only problem with visiting as part of a big tour group is the fact you would be part of a big tour group and not have enough time at the sites themselves.

There's always some risk of sectarian violence, but it seems pretty low at the moment for tourists in Egypt.  I'm a bit wary of visiting Luxor due to the attacks that happened there years ago, but I'm also aware that my concern is likely irrational because millions of people have probably visited since then without incident.  I'm considering doing an independent trip to Egypt in 2025 if possible.

@BenjaminNicholas said it well about being smart, savvy and alert.  This is important for most travel, generally speaking, but some parts of the world do require greater alertness than others. And for many travellers, being alert on vacation doesn't seem to be a priority.

 

[ShortCutie7]

14 minutes ago, CuriousByNature said:

If this is the case, perhaps consider doing a cruise that visits Alexandria?  You can join a ship excursion to visit Cairo and Giza and be surrounded by other cruise ship tourists and not stand out in any way at all. This may be more comfortable than visiting as a solo tourist.  Perhaps ironically, the only problem with visiting as part of a big tour group is the fact you would be part of a big tour group and not have enough time at the sites themselves.

There's always some risk of sectarian violence, but it seems pretty low at the moment for tourists in Egypt.  I'm a bit wary of visiting Luxor due to the attacks that happened there years ago, but I'm also aware that my concern is likely irrational because millions of people have probably visited since then without incident.  I'm considering doing an independent trip to Egypt in 2025 if possible.

@BenjaminNicholas said it well about being smart, savvy and alert.  This is important for most travel, generally speaking, but some parts of the world do require greater alertness than others. And for many travellers, being alert on vacation doesn't seem to be a priority.

 

Yep, cruising is my favorite form of travel!

[mike carey]

This same, or at least a similar vein of conversation comes up in many threads about 'foreign' places (you know, like LA (don't say anything, Vegas), DC or NYC) and it's always 'I wouldn't [not 'I don't'] feel safe there, I'm too obviously [gay/American/Western/touristy/white], so I know I'll be targetted. The thread about Playa del Carmen is a case in point. The reality is, blend in, don't be conspicuous [dress/mannerisms/what you carry] and you'll mostly be fine.

I'm not in a rush to go to most of the Islamic Middle East [yes I have walked around in a mall in Kuwait City, but I was there in atypical circumstances and wearing camo] but would not hesitate to go there if there were a particular reason. Do I care about their politics and religious practices, yes, but that's not the only place I have such concerns. I do understand many of the concerns, even those of some of our more excitable posters, but generally the intersection of valid moral concerns and valid safety concerns is there but it's small so you can consider them separately, and it's up to you whether either make the region a no-go area. On the morality side, I'm firmly in the 'I'd prefer not to' rather than the 'I refuse to' camp. Happily, there are options other than the ME3 airlines and layovers in their hub cities.

Maybe I'm odd (no comments from the usual suspects, please) but I use public transport in the three US cities I mentioned above, and not reluctantly. I don't fear for my safety, but I do try to be aware of my surroundings and watch my six and, as I would in Sydney or Melbourne, listen to my gut.

If you don't see anything in a destination that interests you (or in the case of Playa del Carmen, you've read that the things you want in a Mexican city are lacking, but are available somewhere else) don't go there. If you're interested in a place, spend more time researching how to be safe there rather than search endlessly for every little reason why it might be dangerous.

On second thoughts, I'm not going to NYC again because someone might throw a one cent piece from a window and hit me on the head and kill me.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

4 hours ago, ShortCutie7 said:

I see where you’re coming from, but I wouldn’t consider a basic knowledge of the news and political/religious climate to be “hearsay”.  I’m genuinely happy for you and for others on this thread who have had positive experiences traveling to the Middle East, but that doesn’t mean that those of us who would feel unsafe there have invalid reasons.

I get where you're coming from, but it's fully overblown.

Go to the ME (specifically, the UAE)  and see for yourself. 

Chicken Little, the sky is not falling.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

17 minutes ago, mike carey said:

[yes I have walked around in a mall in Kuwait City, but I was there in atypical circumstances and wearing camo] 

I remember the time I was in KC and I was taken to a very formal meal at a KFC.

That was some fancy fucking chicken.

[Luv2play]

On 12/25/2024 at 11:35 AM, KensingtonHomo said:

I'm always stunned by gays who are traveling to Dubai and such. First of all, I won't go to Florida or Texas because I'm not giving those states my money, nor do I feel safe as a visibly queer person in either one. The idea of having my money support autocratic religious regimes that violently oppress women and queers, enslave refugees and - as with all elites - are vile hypocrites is completely disgusting to me. I once had a massage from a guy who had grown up in Saudi Arabia. He said all the wealthy guys have orgies, including with teenage boys and young men, but these same people will have openly gay people executed. So fuck them. 

This has been true for a long time. Back when OPEC was a big deal, they used to meet in Geneva to set prices for oil. They stayed at the Intercontinental and it was my job to report on the decisions. 
I had some young gay friends who didn’t mind meeting some of the younger Arabs from the oil rich states and they had orgies in the hotel. Often bisexual mmf affairs. And they got handsomely paid. 

[+ nycman]

2 hours ago, mike carey said:

Maybe I'm odd (no comments from the usual suspects, please)

[mike carey]

Just now, nycman said:

Heaven FORFEND!!

Seriously though, I wasn't, it was a throw-away line not really aimed at anyone. But I expected (in fact hoped) that someone would take it as a challenge, and your name did cross my mind. I actually thought you were more likely to respond to me calling NYC a foreign place!

Tehe.

[pubic_assistance]

19 hours ago, ShortCutie7 said:

why would a gay person choose to travel to the Middle East when there are so many other options?

Well..being culturally curious and challenging yourself to have a more open mind would be two of the answers to that question.

Edited December 27, 2024 by pubic_assistance
spelling

[SirBillybob]

14 hours ago, mike carey said:

On second thoughts, I'm not going to NYC again because someone might throw a one cent piece from a window and hit me on the head and kill me.

Counterintuitively, the more protracted death, like by a thousand cuts, is unsolicited two cents thrown.

Edited December 27, 2024 by SirBillybob

[Marc in Calif]

On 12/26/2024 at 1:54 PM, ShortCutie7 said:

... but you really think that it wouldn’t be safer to go to say, Japan, than Egypt or Dubai?

No. I have good friends in Dubai and have visited several times. Everyone I know there feels quite safe -- much safer than my hometown of Oakland, California. 

[Marc in Calif]

On 12/26/2024 at 2:31 PM, ShortCutie7 said:

I don’t personally understand why someone would choose as a vacation destination, as a different example Haiti (which has had lots of violence lately) over any other tropical island? 

Such an extreme example?! 🙄 

To my knowledge, nobody in this thread has expressed a desire to visit similarly violent places such as Gaza, Yemen, or Somalia. 

I think you're grasping at straws here. The "war" you're so afraid of in the huge Middle East region is very easily avoidable in many of its cities. Try one!

[ShortCutie7]

1 minute ago, Marc in Calif said:

Such an extreme example?! 🙄 

To my knowledge, nobody in this thread has expressed a desire to visit similarly violent places such as Gaza, Yemen, or Somalia. 

I think you're grasping at straws here. The "war" you're so afraid of in the huge Middle East region is very easily avoidable in many of its cities. Try one!

I see where you’re coming from.  Perhaps the fact that (as a Jew) the war impacts me in a way that it does not impact the vast majority of Americans makes me ultra sensitive to the topic.

[Marc in Calif]

2 minutes ago, ShortCutie7 said:

I see where you’re coming from.  Perhaps the fact that (as a Jew) the war impacts me in a way that it does not impact the vast majority of Americans makes me ultra sensitive to the topic.

Well, you won't be traveling to Gaza or the West Bank, will you? And nobody is advocating travel to Syria or Lebanon.

I'm also Jewish, but I never dress as one. 🤗

[ShortCutie7]

1 hour ago, Marc in Calif said:

Well, you won't be traveling to Gaza or the West Bank, will you? And nobody is advocating travel to Syria or Lebanon.

I'm also Jewish, but I never dress as one. 🤗

Neither do I, but that doesn’t mean people can’t tell anyway (funny, it’s much easier to hide being gay than being Jewish).

[polythome]

16 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

No. I have good friends in Dubai and have visited several times. Everyone I know there feels quite safe -- much safer than my hometown of Oakland, California. 

Going back to the topic:

I met an escort here in Europe who's normally based out of Dubai for most of the year working as, you guess it, an escort. He describes Dubai as "very gay", relative to Middle East terms and that in the upscale malls, you can definitely see gay couples. I presume this is not in the same "open" sense that you might see them in a city like Barcelona but that it's "open" in a coded way but one that is immediately obvious for anyone who'd care to look. He's been doing this for a few years there now (6 or 7) and is based at a posh place in town.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

16 hours ago, ShortCutie7 said:

Neither do I, but that doesn’t mean people can’t tell anyway (funny, it’s much easier to hide being gay than being Jewish).

I'm circumcised as well.  While many of the men I meet when I am naked think I'm a Jew, I remind them circumcision was the norm for my generation in my home country. 

When I traveled to Egypt, I kept my pants on in public.

[Whippoorwill]

As others have said, don't believe everything you hear/see on the news. Media has always, I presume, had to hype stories to "sell newspapers." Since the advent of 24/7 video news coverage, they really have to hype stories to find content. Going back to the 1989 SF earthquake, for weeks the TV news showed pictures of the same 4 or 5 buildings that collapsed. Some months later, I had guests from the east who were very disappointed that the city was not in ruins...I really had to work to find damage to show them, and it wasn't very impressive. Not that there weren't tragic deaths, but it wasn't the end of the world as portrayed in the news. 

I just received a holiday message from a friend who annually works on an archaeological dig in Israel. I wrote back and, among other things, asked her about the war. This is someone who has no Jewish, Moslem, or Christian political considerations to push. Here is what she wrote:

"I was in Jerusalem five months this year. In Jerusalem one would never guess a war is going on. Where there are food shortages in Gaza and territories such as Bethlehem where shelves are empty, in Jerusalem the stores are packed with food, produce, dairy, meat, etc. Zero shortages. At the mall shoppers have to wait in a line for a fitting room and at lunch there are lines out the restaurant doors. Coffee shops in the city have outdoor tables filled with customers and you need reservations for dinner at the high end restaurants. War? What war? We did have sirens one night and some missiles flew overhead but that was a one time anomaly. 

"One noticeable lack is tourists. The Old City, which relies on tourists and pilgrims, is deserted with most shops closed and residents out of work and struggling to get by. Very sad. Mainly this is because American and European airlines no longer fly in our out of Israel. No air flights means no tourists."

While without question the situation in that part of the world is tragic on all kinds of levels, for much of the country, life goes on. There is much to be learned by travel and seeing with your own eyes. And by the way, I have some neighbors from India. They like living here because they can make so much more money than in India, but their big concern, whether or not they stay, is gun violence in America. They feel so much safer in India. 

And also BTW, I just happened to look and Gay Pride Tel Aviv is of course planned as usual. 

Tel Aviv Gay Pride: Friday, June 13th, 2025 - Tourist Israel

WWW.TOURISTISRAEL.COM

---

Tel Aviv Pride has become one of the biggest events of the year in Tel Aviv. Visitors from all over Israel and the...

 

[UncutDad]

On 12/25/2024 at 12:59 PM, Whippoorwill said:

Yes I have had experience.

I lived and worked in Iran for two years (under the Shah, ancient history, not under the latest repressive Islamic Republic) and have had extensive business travel in the UAE. First thing is, don't confuse the people with their unelected governments. Most people in these countries don't pay any more attention to their governments than we do when it comes to sex. Most people don't pay any more attention to their clerics than we do when it comes to sex. The other thing is the old saying, "when something is prohibited absolutely, it is allowed absolutely." If the powers that be do not admit it exists, there aren't any rules against it. For example, in places like the US where you can buy alcohol, it is regulated as to age of buyer, hours of operation, content of the product, etc. Where there is a prohibition against alcohol, there are no rules regulating its manufacture or dispensing...it's open season for anything you want under the table. The same with sex. Sure, every once in a while there is a political campaign against "vice", but that happens here too. And yes, the advertised penalties are worse, although exceedingly rare. 

In Islamic countries, traditionally males and females were/are kept separate. What does this mean for teenage and older unmarried males?...they are having sex with each other, and lots of it. As soon as I stepped off the plane in Tehran, guys were approaching me. As one said to me, "we knew you were queer, all Englishmen are queer." The "Ti Hi" Lawrence stereotype. The teenage boy across the street from me had an open lover, and there were frequent roving orgies (not so hard to stage when the men are with the men and the women with the women anyway). There is also a thousands of year tradition of workers and their "apprentices." The bathhouses (a weekly ritual) are wild. Fathers typically took/take their teenage sons to protect them...everybody knows what's going on, but no one talks about it. Most of this is situational homosexuality, and most eventually are married to women...but not all. There are "known homosexuals", crossdressers, etc. but no open displays of affection. No gay pride parades for sure. 

Now clearly the Islamic Republic of Iran has tried to tamp this down, but you don't change human nature. Girls are not available to unmarried guys, so what's a guy to do? Other guys. You just have to be careful about being obvious (we've all been careful here too) and think with the head between your ears, not the one between your legs. Advertised penalties are severe, but exceedingly rare. 

Dubai today is a hotbed of gay sex. One of the busiest airports in the world, flight attendants galore, hotel workers galore, tens of thousands of Filipino and Pakistani guest workers (all single men), a steady stream of male business travelers and consultants, lots of money, and lots of horny underemployed Emirati men. And so handsome. The last time I checked into a large western hotel (2019), before I knew it, the desk clerk was knocking on my door "just to check on me." We checked out a lot of things. There are plenty of western escorts visiting Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar, etc. They meet the same way I used to meet tricks when I was doing jobs in backwater cities in the US...go to the best bar in the best hotel in town, and there will be a lot of good looking single guys. 

If you don't want to spend your money in these countries, that is a fine principled position. No argument there. None of these places are that enticing of destinations for discretionary travel, but if you find yourself there, there are plenty of opportunities. You just have to be discrete in public...the same way we were here fifty years ago. And the same way you don't want to be flounting laws in any foreign country, autocracy or democracy. The potential penalties are just worse. But don't believe everything you read in the popular press. There has been extensive discussion of this subject on C.O.M. in the past...perhaps under The Travel Desk? Lots of divergent opinions. There are also a number of gay travelogues online that have visited these countries. 

And yes, Tel Aviv is a party destination for gays from all over Europe and the Middle East. 

Whippoorwill, thanks much for the paragraphs you wrote.  It is really informative and helps very much.

As much as people want to take a stand against Florida, Texas, The UAE etc,  I don't think anyone's hands are totally clean.  I've traveled many places in the world.  Just because I visit, observe and respect local laws and customs does not mean that I support them.  But if I do not go, then I cannot say I have lived experience or perspective of any where in the world.  

It's like watching FOX news where they only show people crossing the dirt border and thinking that is what all of Mexico looks like.  In actuality, places like Mexico City are world class cities.  But if you don't go, you don't know. 

I've also talked with too many men that have lived in UAE cities that tell me it is a hot bed of horny men.  Married and other wise. 

 

Edited January 20 by UncutDad