Prices and Negotiations (ie. “Haggling”)

[Jaroslav]

I'm assuming that many of you guys are professionals in your field who deal with money a lot. That's my assumption. And as such, you are in business with potential clients etc. You understand the nature of doing business in a market, especially one where prices aren't fixed. You haggle. It's what businessmen do. That's why it's so crazy to me that in this area some would suggest that the gay escort market is somehow immune to haggling. As some like to say in some instances here, an escort isn't a dentist or a doctor and so should be treated differently. Okay. Well, then since I don't haggle with the dentist, maybe it's okay and even expected to haggle with an escort. Why not? What puts them in the category of dentist for this business transaction? If we're to treat escorts like businessmen, then let's treat them like businessmen. 

I for myself don't much like haggling, but I'm not going to fault someone who does – particularly in this kind of unregulated market. It might be seen by some as distasteful, but okay. There are loads of things that I see as distasteful, so I just don't do them. Or I say my piece and move on. But to suggest that it violates some rule is ludicrous. There are no rules for the gay escort market. Whatever works. Less rules than in the boardroom. If you can broker the deal, great. If not, better luck next time. 

It just baffles me that businessmen, or men who live and work in such areas, would think that doing business with a professional escort is somehow exempted from that – especially when we all know there aren't any set rules of the trade precisely because its extra-legal.

[JourneysEnd]

I wouldn't haggle with an escort in exactly the same way that I wouldn't haggle at a cinema or restaurant.

[+ José Soplanucas]

https://ilikepinga.com/2019/02/07/haggling/

[+ Lucky]

When you are paying someone to perform a satisfactory service for you, it's important that they feel the service is valued by you. The provider sets the price, you can take it or leave it, but why should the provider have to spend uncompensated time haggling with you?

[Marc in Calif]

49 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

I'm assuming that many of you guys are professionals in your field who deal with money a lot. That's my assumption. And as such, you are in business with potential clients etc. You understand the nature of doing business in a market, especially one where prices aren't fixed. You haggle. It's what businessmen do.

Absolutely wrong!

I don't do that at all in my professional work. I also don't haggle at Best Buy or with the plumber.

Either pay the set fee or go home. 

[Jamie21]

Of course you can haggle! And of course I’ll say ‘no, this is my price’. And of course you can continue to haggle. And of course I’ll then ignore you. Don’t need those kind of clients. There’s plenty who don’t haggle. If I felt the need to accept haggling clients then I’d simply exit the business.

I’d say that’s why it generally doesn’t happen: because guys in this business don’t want to deal with that kind of client. Sure, you’ll find some that do, and you’ll find those are probably not very good because they’re doing it because they have to rather than because they want to. That’s the crux of it. 

[pubic_assistance]

I'm a businessman.

You can certainly haggle my fees, and I will tell you to go fuck yourself.

Haggling is always tacky.

[Jaroslav]

Businesspeople negotiate. Haggling is what you call negotiation that you don’t like. Perspective is important.

There’s also a difference between services too. Giving a massage is different than escorting on a vacation. One lends itself to a set rate much more than the other.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Jaroslav]

I’ve also had providers ask me what I want to pay for a weekend when I ask their rate…That’s negotiation. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Jaroslav]

2 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

https://ilikepinga.com/2019/02/07/haggling/

Apparently it’s “always” tacky. So this entry on your blog is moot.

Of course, it’s not. But some want to act like it is. I appreciate accepting a thing for what it is. Some will call it haggling. Some will call it negotiating. It’s a matter of perspective. 

[Jamie21]

Just now, Jaroslav said:

I’ve also had providers ask me what I want to pay for a weekend when ask their…That’s negotiation. 

They’re testing your limits. For services like that, where there really isn’t much of a market rate, it’s best to find out how much the client is prepared to pay. If you answer him with say £5k then he’ll be delighted he didn’t quote you £3k…If his real price for it is £7k then he’ll say ‘no, sorry’ and wait for you to up your offer. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jaroslav]

@Jamie21, I respect your opinion. You know that part of negotiating/haggling is testing limits. To say it’s something else is disingenuous.

He should also say what the rate is when asked if he has a rate. If his rate is £7k and I say £10k, I expect he’ll be magnanimous and honest enough to say his rate is £7k and spare me the £3k. But we know that’s not going to happen.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Jamie21]

Yes it’s to do with perspective. As a provider I see it as haggling (especially if asked twice). A client might see it as negotiating. 

I’m always intrigued how so many guys who haven’t done sex work (massage or escorting) seem to have such strongly held views about how to do the job. Even when most of the guys who actually do the work contradict what the guy is saying! 

 

[Jaroslav]

1 minute ago, Jamie21 said:

I’m always intrigued how so many guys who haven’t done sex work

That’s true for every profession. Not just sex workers. Everyone knows how to do everyone else’s job better.

I’m not saying how to do the job. I’m saying be honest in talking about it. If you’re testing limits of the client’s willingness to pay, you’re negotiating. That’s what it is. And it’s fine. Just own that.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

...Haggling is always tacky.

Haggling is uncommon in the US, Canada, Australia/New Zealand, Japan, and most of Western Europe (though is done at car dealerships, flea markets, and during business negotiations). Haggling is how most businesses run in most other countries, though. When I travel to those countries, I'll usually seek out places which have fixed prices, such as supermarkets, but one has to adapt to one's local culture. In the first-world countries I mentioned, haggling for a 1-hour escort rate probably won't be successful. I've never paid posted long-term rates, though, for any escort (after doing a 1-hour hire). And, when traveling internationally, I can often get the best deals from escorts in Colombia, etc. 

[Jaroslav]

1 minute ago, Unicorn said:

haggling for a 1-hour escort rate probably won't be successful

Something like that lends itself to a fixed rate much more than a weekend or a trip.

The simple fact that it was (inadvertently) said that a provider is testing the client’s limits is evidence that providers do negotiate/haggle given the right circumstances.

I’d be interested if a provider could directly say if, when testing a client’s limits, the client should offer more than an acceptable rate, as in offering $10k when the escort would take $7k, if the escort would say, “No. That’s too much. Just $7k.” If he takes the $10k, after testing limits, and thinks he’s made out better for it, he needs to understand he’s just negotiated. And a successful negotiation for him it was, but a negotiation nonetheless.

Escorts – would you tell a guy he’s overshot the unspoken rate you had in mind while “testing the client’s limits” and take your original rate? 

[pubic_assistance]

3 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

The simple fact that it was (inadvertently) said that a provider is testing the client’s limits is evidence that providers do negotiate/haggle given the right circumstances.

@Jamie21agreed with you in CONTEXT of a weekend rate. I do believe the discussion you started here was about the broader business market of escorting.

Again...CONTEXT...if someone inquires about a provider's hourly rate and they tell you it's $400 and you say how about $300, they're going to tell you to fuck off 90% of the time. Sure, you'll get the occasional meth-head who's dying for a fix.. but most professionals aren't biting.

If you ask a provider about a weekend, well that's a much more nuanced business model and yes "NEGOTIATIONS" in this case would not/ should not be seen as haggling.

[Jamie21]

16 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

The simple fact that it was (inadvertently) said that a provider is testing the client’s limits is evidence that providers do negotiate/haggle given the right circumstances.

It wasn’t inadvertent. Context applies. Weekend rates is quite a different thing to a session of 1 or 2 hours. 

 

 

[Jamie21]

37 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

That’s true for every profession. Not just sex workers. Everyone knows how to do everyone else’s job better.

I’m not saying how to do the job. I’m saying be honest in talking about it. If you’re testing limits of the client’s willingness to pay, you’re negotiating. That’s what it is. And it’s fine. Just own that.

I think I am being honest. Negotiations need both parties to engage in them. If providers refuse to enter into a negotiation (which I have said is the case most of the time) then it isn’t a negotiation. It’s one sided, and that’s what I’d call a client ‘haggling’. 

 Example:

Client “how much for 1 hour?”

Provider “£200”

Client “hmm will you do £150?”

Provider “sorry no”

Client “but I’m hot / a student / hung / poor this month / will become a regular / semi famous / here’s a dick / bum pic to persuade you”

Provider……(tumbleweed…) Blocks client.

Thats haggling.

Alternatively…

Client “hmm will you do £150?”

Provider “can do £175?”

Client “£165 and you have a deal”

Provider “Ok £165” (prepares to offer a £165 service rather than a £200 service).

That’s negotiating.

See the difference? 

[SirBillybob]

Clients eventually perceive a range in fee rates and are naturally curious about contextual factors that might explain the range. In the absence of a clear explanatory model they may, for example, tend to project avarice onto a higher rate or desperation onto a lower rate. Variations within other (nonsexual) commercial settings may be easier to figure out without being as intrusive with the vendor, yet upfront unmitigated trust is not likely just handed over indiscriminately in any domain. 

Because I interact in person, with no (or modest) cost, a set inventory of providers 90+% of the time it is easier to assess the legitimacy of a fee in the selection piece. The alternative is to hire more comparatively blind. I do the latter so rarely that a disconnect between the fee and my post hoc assessment of its justification has minimal impact on my budget, is easily absorbed, and imputing avarice to the provider is extremely rarely activated because common sense by both parties usually prevails. 

To my way of thinking, one must be pretty accepting of a delineated rate for an initial commercial sex work encounter even if frequent hopping from unknown to unknown. That is the built in cost trade-off for this commodity, albeit with a set of factors that guide quickly sealing the deal or not. After the meet, the sky’s limit opens up a bit more for adjustments in degree of capitulation versus negotiation, but I agree there is likely little consensus about those terms. 

In a very different commercial enterprise I was able to charge a fee substantially less than many of my peers though my credentials were typically more advanced. There were many factors  involved in that. Nobody inquired why it was less and I got the business profits aimed for. However, I compensated for the inclination of clients to raise their eyebrows by underscoring credentials and had about the best website going. 

That said, I also earned enough and at high enough tax margins to pick and choose ‘pro bono’ work according to my interest, but that was directed elsewhere, not client ‘freebies’.

I don’t know if my peers were recipients of attempts at fee negotiation in the event that clientele within the public reacted to the difference in cost. Unsurprisingly, nobody attributed upsell endeavours to me.

Edited April 14, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Jaroslav]

@Jamie21, you offered two different approaches to negotiation, but it’s the same thing. The second example simply reads to me more like a person who understands it’s business than looking to appeal to emotion or impulse. It’s strictly financial whereas the first example looks for sympathy or appeals to your lust, which in good business is likely going to fail. That’s the difference I perceive.

As @Unicorn pointed out, in other cultures haggling is the norm in most exchanges, goods or services. It’s expected. And it’s not one sided.

I’m still curious if in “testing the client’s limits” you’d tell a potential client he overshot the acceptable unspoken rate for an extended time like a weekend or vacation.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Jaroslav]

The example of the plumber is interesting. 

Real life – my work recently replaced the entire sprinkler system to be up-to-code. We solicited bids from plumbers to do the work. Three come in to check it out. Three offer bids. We of course accept the bid for the lowest amount. The bid was $30k, to be done in 6 weeks time. As it turns out, because the plumber was done in less than 6 weeks, we were billed less. The bill came in at just over $24k due to rate for time (sound familiar?) The provider of the services didn't charge the $30k because he couldn't ethically and more importantly legally do. Escorting has no such stipulations. And I don't suppose that any providers are going to charge for an hour, get done in 45 minutes, and say "Hey, I'll give you 25% back." For the record, I wouldn't expect them to. But the point is that, that the comparison isn't apt because of that expectation. 

As to getting shortchanged, real life stories again – I've twice paid two different providers for full weekends when they were both hours late to arriving. The first the guy's flight was late getting in, and he was late by 6 hours. When you're having dinner out and looking forward to some fun beforehand, that cuts into the experience. He didn't do more than apologize and took the whole amount for the weekend. He's since out of the business, but he kept going for a while after me. The second example is a guy who I was paying for a weekend and he was arriving in the afternoon on a Saturday before a wedding he was my date for. His flight was late as well. He also did a piss-poor job communicating with me the day of other than telling me his flight was late. I ended up going to the wedding and reception alone and returning to the hotel to have him arrive there about 11:30 pm...He collected his whole fee as well. In neither instance did I get what I paid for – experientially, temporally, or financially. Pointing out the the shortfall once we were together would’ve made things even worse, but the “right” thing do would’ve been for the escorts to offer me back something for what panned out to be something less than agreed upon. If you’re late to work because of traffic, it’s at I’ll on you, not your employer. And for the record, I would have told the escorts to keep the full amount, but they didn’t even give that opportunity.

[Jamie21]

19 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

@Jamie21, you offered two different approaches to negotiation, but it’s the same thing. The second example simply reads to me more like a person who understands it’s business than looking to appeal to emotion or impulse. It’s strictly financial whereas the first example looks for sympathy or appeals to your lust, which in good business is likely going to fail. That’s the difference I perceive.

As @Unicorn pointed out, in other cultures haggling is the norm in most exchanges, goods or services. It’s expected. And it’s not one sided.

I’m still curious if in “testing the client’s limits” you’d tell a potential client he overshot the acceptable unspoken rate for an extended time like a weekend or vacation.

Looks like I’ve fallen into the trap of trying to argue with someone who is an expert haggler! @Jaroslav

I’m sure if I had the temerity to say the sun rises in the East you’d argue it didn’t 😂. I’m guessing you’re a lawyer? Probably a good one too. 

No, I’d not tell the client he’d overshot. I’d tell him it was tough but ok he’d beaten me down and I’ll do it. Price is determined by supply and demand in a perfect market where both parties have full information. Where that isn’t the case the seller can make excess profit if they have better information than the buyer. 
 

[SirBillybob]

Sounds like the discussion is evolving from ‘a priori’ fee agreement to ‘post hoc’ contingencies, where the idea of negotiating takes a different turn.

[Jamie21]

52 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

Clients eventually perceive a range in fee rates and are naturally curious about contextual factors that might explain the range. In the absence of a clear explanatory model they may, for example, tend to project avarice onto a higher rate or desperation onto a lower rate. Variations within other (nonsexual) commercial settings may be easier to figure out without being as intrusive with the vendor, yet upfront unmitigated trust is not likely just handed over indiscriminately in any domain. 

Because I interact in person, with no (or modest) cost, a set inventory of providers 90+% of the time it is easier to assess the legitimacy of a fee in the selection piece. The alternative is to hire more comparatively blind. I do the latter so rarely that a disconnect between the fee and my post hoc assessment of its justification has minimal impact on my budget, is easily absorbed, and imputing avarice to the provider is extremely rarely activated because common sense by both parties usually prevails. 

To my way of thinking, one must be pretty accepting of a delineated rate for an initial commercial sex work encounter even if frequent hopping from unknown to unknown. That is the built in cost trade-off for this commodity, albeit with a set of factors that guide quickly sealing the deal or not. After the meet, the sky’s limit opens up a bit more for adjustments in degree of capitulation versus negotiation, but I agree there is likely little consensus about those terms. 

In a very different commercial enterprise I was able to charge a fee substantially less than many of my peers though my credentials were typically more advanced. There were many factors  involved in that. Nobody inquired why it was less and I got the business profits aimed for. However, I compensated for the inclination of clients to raise their eyebrows by underscoring credentials and had about the best website going. 

That said, I also earned enough and at high enough tax margins to pick and choose ‘pro bono’ work according to my interest, but that was directed elsewhere, not client ‘freebies’.

I don’t know if my peers were recipients of attempts at fee negotiation in the event that clientele within the public reacted to the difference in cost. Unsurprisingly, nobody attributed upsell endeavours to me.

Did you charge by the word?