Our roles as community elders

[CheckCar]

For those of us who identify as older members of LGBTQ+ communities, how are we imagining and enacting our roles as elders in our communities?

Note: I am not assuming that everyone on this forum sees themselves as older individuals, identifies as members of LGBTQ+ communities, and wants to play a role in those communities as elders. For those who do, this thread is for you.

I’m around 50 years old, and I’ve fought some battles over the years as a gay man. I have some insights on how to survive and thrive that might be helpful to share. I also have a lot to learn, especially from younger members of our communities who’ve come of age as queer folks under a significantly different milieu and, thus, have insights into current times that may elude me.

The barriers to queer cross-generational connection and community-building are many, but the ongoing and forthcoming attacks on folks like us warrant efforts to overcome those barriers, pool our insights and resources together, and fight for our dignity and rights as LGBTQ+ people. I’m feeling a renewed urgency to do more to improve our lot as a queer community.

For those of you who see and carry yourselves as elders in our communities, how do you do it? What types of organizations or networks do you participate in? What types of contributions do you make? What types of challenges do you find yourself negotiating?

 

 

[+ The Big Guy]

Thank you for this timely post.  I also would like to find a way to be more helpful.  

[BeamerBikes]

I think we have an obligation to tell the tell to pass on the stakes on how things were in the before times.  

I'm 45 and my gay elders have started to pass on. Long term HIV treatment added decades to their life, but side effects plus drinking/smoking/eating started to catch up.  I was lucky enough to hear some of the oral histories first hand.  

The youngest generation will fight to reverse these trends towards the hands maid tale. They likely are going to need mentors and support though.  Just as I did in my early 20s...  reminding the change takes time and not all their peers will be as civically committed. You can find a balance between staying out late at dance club, tricking/hooking up, doing the walk of shame on Sunday morning to clean yourself up and show up at workshop hungover as shit but still present.  Coffee and don't try to speak much until after noon. 

Oh youth.  I have turned into my elders who would do the Irish goodbye after dinner and a nightcap at the bar.  

Lol

[+ Coolwave35]

This is a fascinating subject. Born in 1983, outside nyc, I felt the void of the generation of elders lost to aids. There simply wasn’t anyone for me to look up to, or a model of what a successful gay man looked like for me to follow. It wasn’t until will and grace that I could even point to a gay person on tv, and even then I thought I had to choose between being a will, that I perceived as closeted, or a jack that I saw as way too outlandish and buffoony for me to make it in the suburbs.  Neither felt like a fit and it left me searching for mentors in all the wrong places that took advantage of my youth, inexperience and desire to connect. 
 

As I now transition to a mentor type role as I approach 40, what I think is most important in the approach is to create a space for younger guys to explore, while being wildly aware of the power dynamic that our age and money afford us over younger guys, and consciously making the decision NOT to exploit that. 
 

I can’t count the number of younger grindr guys that are intoxicated by my material possessions and try to give away their power. I’m constantly guiding them away from doing that and trying to balance the scale as I think that is so important as we have open conversations about anal pleasure. I’ve been gifted the virginity of several men because I’ve learned how to make it feel safe. I think that’s where we should start. Creating safe spaces for them to have their questions answered and their desires explored, be they sexual, financial, relational, familial etc. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Coolwave35

[+ The Big Guy]

A young gay friend of mine mentioned he would like to have children.  It seems that many of us experienced parenting in life and could be a trusted advisor on related issues.  Also we have many successful business executives that could be a mentor/coach toward success in that world.  

[+ FrankR]

8 minutes ago, The Big Guy said:

A young gay friend of mine mentioned he would like to have children.  It seems that many of us experienced parenting in life and could be a trusted advisor on related issues.  Also we have many successful business executives that could be a mentor/coach toward success in that world.  

I presented a fire side chat at the office last week about what it means to be ab ally in the office.  My talking points were built around this article - it is a good read.

https://www.themuse.com/amp/advice/what-is-an-ally-7-examples

[+ The Big Guy]

15 minutes ago, FrankR said:

I presented a fire side chat at the office last week about what it means to be ab ally in the office.  My talking points were built around this article - it is a good read.

https://www.themuse.com/amp/advice/what-is-an-ally-7-examples

Great example. Far too many companies fail to develop these “soft” skills that can provide a development opportunity.  Members of our community can always use an ally or be an ally in the workplace. 

[+ Topseed]

I mentor/coach many people, most of whom are full-time performing artists. 

Sexuality rarely enters our conversations.

 

Instead, I strive to offer observations without judgement, confidentiality, empathy, challenge, and support based on my long career in both the investment world (where I observed both business success and failure) and in the non-profit realm (ditto). Ultimately, it's about striving to live in the truth, determining how many other people (if any) get a "vote" on one's life's direction, and having the fortitude to make a new decision when necessary without concern for "perfect timing". 

[RyanDean]

I was born the same year as Stonewall, which puts me in the age cohort that the term GenX was invented for. And my segment of GenX is often described as the generation that came of age during a tumultuous time of exciting and terrifying change (before/after home video, before/after MTV, before/after the fall of the Berlin wall, before/after AIDS, before/after the internet). I was also very precocious, looked to be in my later teens even in my earliest teen years, and intentionally sought out anonymous sexual encounters with men before the word AIDS was being mentioned on national news broadcasts. I was lucky. Most of my comparably sexually precocious peers were consumed by the same diseases (and addictions) that swept away so many of the men ahead of us, age-wise. But for much of my 20s, I lived in NYC and considered myself a professional homosexual, working as an attendant in a gay sex club, as an "operator" for a gay phone sex line and as a producer for a gay theatre. In those years, I attended so many memorials/funerals, joined more protests than I can count and was part of (or party to) so much sex. Such a formatively fun and painful cluster of years. I left NYC shortly after Giuliani was first elected, right about about when the "cocktail" was being introduced, right before RENT and Ellen both came out, and right as lesbian/gay mainstream visibility went from covert to overt in what felt like a matter of seconds -- largely thanks to the internet. It's hard for me sometimes to even wrap my brain around what is was like to find other gay men before I had dial up...

Professionally, I spend a lot of time with LGBTQ+ young adults born in the later 1990s and early 2000s and it's a daily adventure for me to try to bridge the distance to the recent past (ie the first half of my life), while also learning from them about what they're seeing, feeling and experiencing now -- in this incredibly tumultuous time of exciting and terrifying change that we're all living in. We might as well have grown up on different planets, given how different their young lives have been, but they're often very (if quietly) curious to know more about what it was like "before" -- not so much because they want to be like me or have a life like mine but mostly because they are (like most of my friends were at that age) looking for a way to live happily in a world that doesn't feel designed for their happiness. All of which is to say: for me, being an elder is about witnessing what younger folks are experiencing, inviting those who are able/interested to also witness what you have experienced and, in so doing, learning with (not from) each other...

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by RyanDean

[Xavitv]

Does almost 35 count as elder ish in the gay community? 
I didn’t come out until I was 23-24 so I’m trying to experience things I prohibited myself to experience when I was younger. I feel I might be able to offer some sort of guidance, but I still feel like a teen in the gay community and enjoy learning from others. 

[CheckCar]

4 hours ago, Coolwave35 said:

This is a fascinating subject. Born in 1983, outside nyc, I felt the void of the generation of elders lost to aids. There simply wasn’t anyone for me to look up to, or a model of what a successful gay man looked like for me to follow. It wasn’t until will and grace that I could even point to a gay person on tv, and even then I thought I had to choose between being a will, that I perceived as closeted, or a jack that I saw as way too outlandish and buffoony for me to make it in the suburbs.  Neither felt like a fit and it left me searching for mentors in all the wrong places that took advantage of my youth, inexperience and desire to connect. 
 

As I now transition to a mentor type role as I approach 40, what I think is most important in the approach is to create a space for younger guys to explore, while being wildly aware of the power dynamic that our age and money afford us over younger guys, and consciously making the decision NOT to exploit that. 
 

I can’t count the number of younger grindr guys that are intoxicated by my material possessions and try to give away their power. I’m constantly guiding them away from doing that and trying to balance the scale as I think that is so important as we have open conversations about anal pleasure. I’ve been gifted the virginity of several men because I’ve learned how to make it feel safe. I think that’s where we should start. Creating safe spaces for them to have their questions answered and their desires explored, be they sexual, financial, relational, familial etc. 

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response. In addition to personal mentoring, are you involved in—or do you see yourself becoming involved in—collective organizing and advocacy efforts? I’m increasingly feeling that the mentoring and professional role modeling I do for younger queer folks is not enough. Also, I suspect that I might have more opportunities for mentoring if I were to become more active in collective organizing. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this, if you’re willing to share. Thanks.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

My philosophy is to treat younger hookups like a campground.  Leave it better than you found it.

[CheckCar]

2 hours ago, RyanDean said:

I was born the same year as Stonewall, which puts me in the age cohort that the term GenX was invented for. And my segment of GenX is often described as the generation that came of age during a tumultuous time of exciting and terrifying change (before/after home video, before/after MTV, before/after the fall of the Berlin wall, before/after AIDS, before/after the internet). I was also very precocious, looked to be in my later teens even in my earliest teen years, and intentionally sought out anonymous sexual encounters with men before the word AIDS was being mentioned on national news broadcasts. I was lucky. Most of my comparably sexually precocious peers were consumed by the same diseases (and addictions) that swept away so many of the men ahead of us, age-wise. But for much of my 20s, I lived in NYC and considered myself a professional homosexual, working as an attendant in a gay sex club, as an "operator" for a gay phone sex line and as a producer for a gay theatre. In those years, I attended so many memorials/funerals, joined more protests than I can count and was part of (or party to) so much sex. Such a formatively fun and painful cluster of years. I left NYC shortly after Giuliani was first elected, right about about when the "cocktail" was being introduced, right before RENT and Ellen both came out, and right as lesbian/gay mainstream visibility went from covert to overt in what felt like a matter of seconds -- largely thanks to the internet. It's hard for me sometimes to even wrap my brain around what is was like to find other gay men before I had dial up...

Professionally, I spend a lot of time with LGBTQ+ young adults born in the 2000s and it's a daily adventure for me to try to bridge the distance to the recent past (ie the first half of my life), while also learning from them about what they're seeing, feeling and experiencing now -- in this incredibly tumultuous time of exciting and terrifying change that we're all living in. We might as well have grown up on different planets, given how different their young lives have been, but they're often very (if quietly) curious to know more about what it was like "before" -- not so much because they want to be like me or have a life like mine but mostly because they are (like most of my friends were at that age) looking for a way to live happily in a world that doesn't feel designed for their happiness. All of which is to say: for me, being an elder is about witnessing what younger folks are experiencing, inviting those who are able/interested to also witness what you have experienced and, in so doing, learning with (not from) each other...

 

I identify so intimately with the series of before/after’s you mentioned. It’s a big reason why, as a near-50-year-old, I struggle at times to figure out my role in the present day. For instance, I can appreciate the affordances of online dating, especially for those who don’t have ready access to vibrant in-person queer social spaces. I also feel a sense of loss, however, as someone who came of age at a time when I had to go to gay bars or gay community centers in the big city for any kind of gay social life. In those spaces, I found older queer folks—sometimes only a few years older than I was, sometimes significantly older—who taught me how to navigate the world as a young gay adult. They taught me how to distinguish safer from riskier social spaces, safer from riskier dating prospects, safer from riskier professional and financial decisions, etc. By contrast, I became an informal mentor to a gay college senior a few years ago after he had just come out. When I asked him what his coming out experience was like, he told me that he had downloaded Grindr and had met his first “boyfriend.” The thought of Grindr being this young man’s initiation into gay life—revolving largely around hook-up culture without nurturing connections to mentors and community—saddened and alarmed me.

I embrace the opportunities that have emerged through professional and some social networks to be the nurturing gay mentor with no sexual interests in younger mentees (I had a few bad experiences in my earlier years that taught me how difficult it is to mentor someone you want to fuck). But with the increasingly homophobic and transphobic sociopolitical landscape surrounding us, I worry that I’m not doing enough. I have a good job, ample savings, and lots of security in my life; I can afford to take risks that might be harder to manage for others. But I’ve been disconnected from in-the-streets activism for quite some time (which helps to explain my professional success and stability). I don’t see clear pathways for someone like me to get involved in political spaces where the white-collar, “assimilationist” gay male professional seems to frequently be identified as one of the problems that needs to be solved. 

Perhaps I just need to enter some of those spaces and hope that, with time, my potential contributions will become apparent.

 

[CheckCar]

2 hours ago, Xavitv said:

Does almost 35 count as elder ish in the gay community? 
I didn’t come out until I was 23-24 so I’m trying to experience things I prohibited myself to experience when I was younger. I feel I might be able to offer some sort of guidance, but I still feel like a teen in the gay community and enjoy learning from others. 

This is a great question. It seems like LGBTQ+ folks can find ourselves occupying “elder” status under unusual and confusing circumstances. When I came out in my sophomore year of college, I quickly became “Papa Bear” for the closeted folks around me. I had barely started to learn what it meant to be gay when I suddenly found myself positioned as the go-to for gay issues on campus. As I looked for mentors to support me, I realized the gap created by the AIDS epidemic. Many of my would-be mentors were either gone or were scared away by the intensity of the epidemic in the 80s. I was forced to become an elder way before I was ready to.

And then there are those who come out later than others and experience what a gay male social worker friend describes as “delayed” gay adolescence. This is the 30 year old with a job, home, and other trappings of adulthood whose sexual and romantic experiences—to no fault of his own—are equivalent to those of a typical 17 year-old heterosexual. Is it fair to expect that person to play an elder role when he has had so little time to experience gay life for himself? As I type this, I realize that I still have some baggage from prematurely becoming a gay elder!

[+ The Big Guy]

My thanks to @CheckCar for the very thoughtful posts.  Has give me a lot to think about. 

[+ Coolwave35]

2 hours ago, CheckCar said:

I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response. In addition to personal mentoring, are you involved in—or do you see yourself becoming involved in—collective organizing and advocacy efforts? I’m increasingly feeling that the mentoring and professional role modeling I do for younger queer folks is not enough. Also, I suspect that I might have more opportunities for mentoring if I were to become more active in collective organizing. I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this, if you’re willing to share. Thanks.

I actually approach formalized queer advocacy with trepidation. Because of my hiring habits which feel counterproductive to gay culture sometimes, it makes me feel like a hypocrite. I was actively involved with marriage equality in New York State but not much else. Instead, I focus my community activism, and sit on the boards of non profits with missions in wildlife, mentoring young girls, and Latina immigrants. Where I live, people still confuse homosexuality with pedophilia. It’s disgusting and hurtful. I’m afraid if I get too active in the queer activism space, given my hiring habits, my reputation would suffer and it would be an easy leap for an accuser to make. It’s unfortunate but a very real fear I have that keeps me from queer activism. 

[+ cougar]

5 hours ago, CheckCar said:

But I’ve been disconnected from in-the-streets activism for quite some time (which helps to explain my professional success and stability). I don’t see clear pathways for someone like me to get involved in political spaces where the white-collar, “assimilationist” gay male professional seems to frequently be identified as one of the problems that needs to be solved. 

Perhaps I just need to enter some of those spaces and hope that, with time, my potential contributions will become apparent.

CheckCar, these two sentences are probably the most realistic description of my life. Thank you for saying this and I hope it will stir me to think more about this topic. I do not know how I will act upon it, I am just happy to read it. 

[+ Coolwave35]

4 hours ago, CheckCar said:

And then there are those who come out later than others and experience what a gay male social worker friend describes as “delayed” gay adolescence. This is the 30 year old with a job, home, and other trappings of adulthood whose sexual and romantic experiences—to no fault of his own—are equivalent to those of a typical 17 year-old heterosexual. 

This is exactly how I felt at 35 and the awareness of this inspired a huge shift to using my newly acquired knowledge and paying it forward as quickly as possible. 

[+ nycman]

9 hours ago, Xavitv said:

Does almost 35 count as elder ish in the gay community? 

Lmao…..at 35, you’re a fucking dinosaur in the gay community. 

[CheckCar]

5 hours ago, Coolwave35 said:

I’m afraid if I get too active in the queer activism space, given my hiring habits, my reputation would suffer and it would be an easy leap for an accuser to make. It’s unfortunate but a very real fear I have that keeps me from queer activism. 

This resonates deeply with me. I do most of my hiring outside of my home city in an attempt to distance that private part of my life from the more public parts. But there’s still a chance that someone in my more immediate social or professional networks might find out someday about my hiring practices.

Through glimpses into local LGBTQ+ activist spaces, I have seen open and intentional compassion toward, as well as advocacy with and on behalf of, those involved in various levels of sex work. I also have noticed a decided lack of compassion for those who hire. While I have no desire to share that part of my life in community-based advocacy spaces, I can’t help but wonder if and how room could be made to acknowledge the complexities surrounding why I hire, rather than writing off someone like me as a predator and exploiter. 

[mike carey]

7 hours ago, CheckCar said:

And then there are those who come out later than others and experience what a gay male social worker friend describes as “delayed” gay adolescence. This is the 30 year old with a job, home, and other trappings of adulthood whose sexual and romantic experiences—to no fault of his own—are equivalent to those of a typical 17 year-old heterosexual. Is it fair to expect that person to play an elder role when he has had so little time to experience gay life for himself?

This is a great thread, and as one who came out very late, even to myself, there are things here that make me think. Being old, but young in gaydom, has its challenges and contradictions. I tended to embark on efforts to learn about this environment more by watching and reading than by seeking engagement with others, but for some things the latter was necessary, or at least would have been better. I didn't rush to make up for the missed opportunities of a gay younger life but rather to take up opportunities as they arose.

When I did engage in a gay social group with a very mixed age profile, as expected there were others who could offer advice that was in effect mentoring after a fashion, many younger than me. On the other hand I had life experiences from years of engagement with work and the wider society that younger members of the group found useful. They knew I hadn't navigated that part of my life as a 'declared' gay man, but seemed to value what I had to say and were happy to discuss issues with me now that I was there as an 'older' gay man.

I realise that the purpose of the thread is to ask people who have extensive lived experience as gay men to explore how they can pay that experience (or those resources) forward, but don't forget that there are young gay men who would be more comfortable discussing life matters that aren't particular to this community with an older gay man than with someone else.

[OCClient]

Along those same lines, 

avoid getting to close with people willing to lie to you.

 

[+ augustus]

I am an American and don't feel the need to identify with any particular subculture.  Nor does my life revolve upon my sexual orientation.   When people stop seeing themselves as innocent and helpless victims of society, we will all be better off.  BTW, the community has more than its fair share of intolerance and bigotry.   My guidance to young people is the same to all of them, whoever they are.  Just do unto others...

Edited June 29, 2022 by augustus

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

Most parents' influence on their children wanes as children reach pre-teen age, when the influence of their peers begins to grow in importance.  In retrospect, most would agree that while their parents influenced them a great deal in their upbringing, peer influence took over especially after age of consent.  Therefore, as an elder in the community (at work, in the neighborhood, or at a strip club) the best I can do is be available to be a peer to someone who may want to be around me.  I can demonstrate that I carry myself with dignity, honesty, kindness, and generosity, with the hopes that they find that refreshing and attractive and will consider emulating the same.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Vegas_nw1982

[+ Charlie]

I guess I qualify as a gay elder, since I came out when Dwight Eisenhower was President. In my 20s, I was active in the small, pre-Stonewall gay rights organizations, and I took part in the first gay picketing of Independence Hall in 1965. I was living with my second partner a few blocks from the Stonewall the night of the riot. In my 30s, I was active in the new post-Stonewall national gay rights organizations, and carried the flag at the head of a Gay Pride parade during the Bi-Centennial in 1976. I also taught the first gay literature course ever offered at my college. In my 40s, I was active as a volunteer in AIDS organizations, and ran an AIDS information hotline. By my 50s, my energies were starting to flag, and I turned to professional and family responsibilities. In my 60's and 70s, my contributions to gay life were mostly financial.

This topic made me realize that I have almost no contact with "young gays" any longer. When the head of the LGBTQ student organization at my alma mater recently asked alumni for information about "gay life" at the school for a historical retrospective video she was preparing, she told me I was the oldest alumnus who responded. I told her there was no "gay life" at the school when I was there, because homosexual activity was illegal then. She asked to interview me to use as a prologue for the video, and I agreed, the closest I have come to any kind of mentoring of young gays in recent years. Like many old men, I live in the bubble of retirees in the age-segregated divisions that characterize modern American society. The "younger" men who have posted here are probably my only audience. However, if the Supreme Court tries to take away any of my hard-won rights, I'll probably be back at the public demonstrations again.