Mourning period for a stillbirth?

[Guest]

One of my fellow male physicians at work recently e-mailed us because his wife had a stillbirth at 24 weeks, following an unsuccessful attempt at intra-uterine corrective surgery. He stated that he would be out for weeks for mourning, and couldn't even guess at a return-to-work date. I asked my "usual" nurse what she thought about this, and she thought that this mourning period was rather excessive. Not that I'm going to say anything, but it seems rather out-there to me. Does this seem like a reasonable period to you guys?

[+ Kufrol]

To paraphrase Elizabeth I, Queen of England, "We shall not presume to have a window on another man's soul." I've adapted that to, "I'll try not to impose my standard of grief or mourning onto another person." As a physician, perhaps your colleague second guesses himself both as a family man and as a doctor. I hope he seeks professional help as he and his wife process this perplexing transition.

[marylander1940]

Mourning period for a stillborn?

 

Whatever his familiar, personal, professional and financial circumstances/responsibilities allow him to do.

 

Thank God every time I had to mourn someone I was very busy working, that kept me from suffering too much

[+ WilliamM]

To paraphrase Elizabeth I, Queen of England, "We shall not presume to have a window on another man's soul." I've adapted that to, "I'll try not to impose my standard of grief or mourning onto another person." As a physician, perhaps your colleague second guesses himself both as a family man and as a doctor. I hope he seeks professional help as he and his wife process this perplexing transition.

 

Why does he need professional help. To be fair to his family, we have too little information to respond adequately.

[+ purplekow]

There are so many factors. Is this a first time still birth or has this happened before? Did the couple have trouble getting pregnant?

How is his wife handling it? At 24 weeks, some fetuses can survive. I think offering condolences and waiting for him to return in his own good time is the respectful thing to do. After my wife's death, I returned to work in 4 days. The house seemed so empty and mournful. Work was not much better but there were other people and distractions and ultimately I was able to get the condolences period of the grieving period out of the way. For me, that was the most difficult. I needed to grieve but I did not necessarily want to share my grief so condolences, while appreciated, kept the unpleasant memories recurring and blocked the joyous ones from becomings the prominent ones. Perhaps your colleague feels likewise.

[Guest]

I don't know the specific factors, other than I think it's the wife's first pregnancy. Obviously, I wouldn't show any criticism, just support. Weeks off for a stillbirth, however, just seems excessive to me.

[HotWhiteThirties]

You never get over the loss of a child.

 

At 24 weeks, most couples have already found out of their child is a boy or a girl and have a name. Having lost a child in utero before, I can say it’s still a loss I grapple with and think about years later. My son would be 7 years old now and, yes, he has a name.

 

I have to say I always find it rather insulting and offensive when someone acts as if the idea that he was lost in untero somehow means the loss doesn’t count as much. As if his life was less meaningful. I have related (though not offended) feelings when people ask how many children I have - in my mind I always think of the ones I have living PLUS the one I lost. Many don’t understand this. But, that is life - everyone’s perspective is colored by thousands of influences and life experiences. Thus, you can’t presume to know how long it will take this doctor to be prepared to return, or what circumstances are present in their situation (at least that is my impression from the limited information provided). Given what has been shared, I would advise not vocalizing the question posed here or idea that he is taking too much time, or if the time he takes is excessive - even if you have the question - to anyone else. It doesn’t come off well, even if you think it is innocuous.

Edited December 27, 2018 by HotWhiteThirties

[Rudynate]

My mother had a stillbirth. It was a full-term pregnancy, and right around the due date, the fetus abruptly stopped moving. An autopsy revealed that the umbilical cord had clotted. It created a terrible upset in our household that lasted for months. She would burst into tears at the slightest provocation. She stayed in bed all the time. She and my father fought. Bad scene all around. The stillbirth happened just a couple days before Christmas and the pall started to lift maybe in the late spring.

[+ WilliamM]

I am so glad several people spoke so eloquently in favor of the long grief period. Thank you to those members.

Edited December 27, 2018 by WilliamM

[+ FreshFluff]

A stillbirth at 24 weeks would be extremely painful no matter what. As HotWhiteThirties said, at that point,most people feel like they’re out of the woods. It’s even worse if they’d been trying for some time and this was her first pregnancy.

Edited December 27, 2018 by FreshFluff

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

Perhaps there is more to the story that he is not ready to share. Since there was surgery, his wife may have also suffered complications from the surgery and that may be too painful to share.

[Guest]

Given what has been shared, I would advise not vocalizing the question posed here or idea that he is taking too much time, or if the time he takes is excessive - even if you have the question - to anyone else. It doesn’t come off well, even if you think it is innocuous.

Yes, of course I wouldn't mouth off at work. That's why I'm asking here. There is one other person I can trust to keep it confidential at work whose opinion I might seek, but, as I said previously, I will only offer my support and condolences to the person involved. I've worked there for a quarter century and never seen anyone take that kind of time off, but whatever he needs, I guess.

[Walker1]

Who knows their personal story. Nowadays infertility is a major problem. I myself went through a roller coaster after several attempts to have my kids the scientific route-mine didn't get very far the first initial tries. But it is painful even at the early stages-especially the not knowing. Who knows what hell they have been through to get to that point of getting pregnant. Maybe they are an older couple and this is their last shot -who really knows. He needs as long as he needs to get over it and move on.

[rvwnsd]

Yes, of course I wouldn't mouth off at work. That's why I'm asking here. There is one other person I can trust to keep it confidential at work whose opinion I might seek, but, as I said previously, I will only offer my support and condolences to the person involved. I've worked there for a quarter century and never seen anyone take that kind of time off, but whatever he needs, I guess.

Perhaps re-reading this thread will inspire you to be a bit more compassionate toward your colleague.

[Guest]

Perhaps re-reading this thread will inspire you to be a bit more compassionate toward your colleague.

 

Kind of a non-sequitur, but I don't appreciate the condescending tone. I was just asking for objective opinions, not implying I wasn't compassionate to his plight. FWIW, my nurse agreed with me. I have been noticing that in the last 4 to 5 years, physicians where I work, in particular, are taking far longer off for maternity/paternity than they ever have before. Absences have been for 6 months or even longer. When physicians in particular take extended absences, patient care suffers. Covering physicians don't really know the patient or know what the plan is. If there is any evaluation that needs to be made (such as for DMV placards or other issues), the patient will usually have to come in for a whole new evaluation. Some patients have switched health care providers over these extended absences. Interestingly, I don't see these extended absences happening with the nurses, secretaries, medical records personnel, etc. I wouldn't question someone taking any extended time off to take care of an infirm child, spouse, or parent. I've been a physician for 30 years, however, and just haven't seen this kind of an absence before, so I was wondering what unaffected 3rd parties would think. I wasn't asking for opinions about my levels of compassion or empathy.

[rvwnsd]

Kind of a non-sequitur, but I don't appreciate the condescending tone. I was just asking for objective opinions, not implying I wasn't compassionate to his plight. FWIW, my nurse agreed with me. I have been noticing that in the last 4 to 5 years, physicians where I work, in particular, are taking far longer off for maternity/paternity than they ever have before. Absences have been for 6 months or even longer. When physicians in particular take extended absences, patient care suffers. Covering physicians don't really know the patient or know what the plan is. If there is any evaluation that needs to be made (such as for DMV placards or other issues), the patient will usually have to come in for a whole new evaluation. Some patients have switched health care providers over these extended absences. Interestingly, I don't see these extended absences happening with the nurses, secretaries, medical records personnel, etc. I wouldn't question someone taking any extended time off to take care of an infirm child, spouse, or parent. I've been a physician for 30 years, however, and just haven't seen this kind of an absence before, so I was wondering what unaffected 3rd parties would think. I wasn't asking for opinions about my levels of compassion or empathy.

Non-sequiter? Really? You do not see the connection between being pissed off about your colleague and feeling guilty about it and your concern about being called out for objectifying the

...near-perfect specimen...

that you are objectifying?

[Guest]

First of all, I'm not pissed off about my colleague. Second, if I were, I wouldn't feel guilty about it. Third, I don't think I was objectifying him (those were his words, not mine). Fourth, even if #1-3 were true, I don't see any more connection to those facts than I do with a man having lunch in Toronto and a rooster crowing in Malta.

Non-sequiter? Really? You do not see the connection between being pissed off about your colleague and feeling guilty about it and your concern about being called out for objectifying the

that you are objectifying?

[+ purplekow]

First of all, I'm not pissed off about my colleague. Second, if I were, I wouldn't feel guilty about it. Third, I don't think I was objectifying him (those were his words, not mine). Fourth, even if #1-3 were true, I don't see any more connection to those facts than I do with a man having lunch in Toronto and a rooster crowing in Malta.

What is he having for lunch? If it is a chicken sandwich there may be some sort of telepathic chicken connection.

[+ GregM]

Let him grieve the way he needs to. Dont be a dick. Be there if he feels the need to vent. Why do people feel the need to butt in on how some grieves or doesnt? Smh.

 

Hugs,

Greg

[+ WilliamM]

First of all, I'm not pissed off about my colleague. Second, if I were, I wouldn't feel guilty about it. Third, I don't think I was objectifying him (those were his words, not mine). Fourth, even if #1-3 were true, I don't see any more connection to those facts than I do with a man having lunch in Toronto and a rooster crowing in Malta.

 

The connection is starting two threads within a short period of time in a message center. Surely you know the two threads might be seen as connected.

[Whitman]

… I have been noticing that in the last 4 to 5 years, physicians where I work, in particular, are taking far longer off for maternity/paternity than they ever have before …

Interesting to bring maternity and paternity leave into this discussion. Particularly the latter, since plenty of us here surely remember a time before the "radical" concept of paternity leave even existed. (And what would that be for? A man taking time off because his wife had a baby!!? It's a world gone mad!)

 

Anyway, in mentioning paternity leave, @Unicorn, you've made me wonder if you would have more readily accepted a female colleague -- rather than a male physician -- taking weeks off work for a mourning period after a stillbirth at 24 weeks? I suspect there are plenty of people -- still -- who more easily (more reflexively) understand a woman grieving for the loss of a wanted child, and needing time for emotional recovery.

 

But if this couple shared an eager anticipation for their lost child, it seems only logical that they now need time to grieve and recover together.

 

From a business perspective -- sure, there's real inconvenience to a circumstance like this. And I suppose there are still plenty of professional colleagues (in all sorts of businesses) who get impatient about men and women taking time off to grieve or to heal, to bond with a new baby or to care for an elderly parent.

 

I have been on both sides of that, so I abstain from passing judgment on anyone. I once grumbled way too much about a new colleague (in her 20s) who -- only a couple of months after being hired -- took off many days to be with her dying father, then three more weeks after he passed. She was paid, and nothing was said to her about this. A few years later, I was the beneficiary of a whole lot of consideration and generosity from colleagues --including this one -- when I took an extended time away from work. What goes around ...

[+ WilliamM]

Many doctors work much more than eight hours a day. Sure it can be inconvenient for the patient and the substitute doctor.

 

 

But every day ilife is occasionally inconvenient.

[MassageDrew]

Everyone heals differently. It will take some just days while others longer. If this is their first and they’ve been trying hard to get pregnant then this will be a lot more devastating than for couples who can push babies left and right.

 

Putting numbers on human emotions is what every HR office in every company does. Most allow 3-day bereavement days off and they’ll make you use FMLA or some other form of leave if you need more. They have to put a number on every so they can “calculate “ it. Is it right, no but they do it anyway. It’s all about $$$. We are capitalists after all.

[+ nycman]

Why do people feel the need to butt in on how some grieves or doesnt?

I’m guessing, but it’s because “some people” have to cover the shifts or

workload that the person grieving “can’t” work.

 

As I’ve grown older I’ve found that various people grieve in various ways.

I tend to want to work more....it’s not smart....but it helps me grind through it.

Others need time off...occasionally it seems like excessive amounts to me and

I understand Unicorn’s frustration.

 

I’ve learned that not everyone is like me...and it’s just better to pick up their shifts

until they are ready to return to work. Bitching about it....or even innocently inquiring

about it (like Unicorn did here) is usually met with outrage (like it was here)....so I’ve

learned to just shut up and do the extra work.

 

It’s just as unhealthy as grinding through my grief....but it works for me.

[Guest]

Anyway, in mentioning paternity leave, @Unicorn, you've made me wonder if you would have more readily accepted a female colleague -- rather than a male physician -- taking weeks off work for a mourning period after a stillbirth at 24 weeks? I suspect there are plenty of people -- still -- who more easily (more reflexively) understand a woman grieving for the loss of a wanted child, and needing time for emotional recovery.

 

Well, from the responses I've read here, these extended leaves seem to be the norm these days, and I accept that. I was just curious what the thoughts were, and a lot of people seemed to have pounced, and inferred my thoughts or emotional responses to this matter. I will ask the other person at work that I can trust to not let my question get around. He is also, along with my trusted nurse, in the 50+ crowd, so may have a different opinion. And, yes, it would be easier for me to understand a longer recovery time needed by the woman who actually had to go through the physical changes of pregnancy, medical procedures, etc. FWIW, I do recall more now regarding this physician. I couldn't remember when I started this string if he'd had another baby before, but in thinking back on paternity leave, I now remember that this is (at least) his 2nd baby. He did take off 5 months for paternity leave some 2 years ago or thereabouts, less than one year after being hired. He's the only male employee to ever have done so, again in the 25 years I've been working there. Again, this is not something I'm "pissed off" about as some have implied. I accept that what's considered acceptable behavior in the workplace has changed over the years. I knew this already about extended maternity/paternity leaves. Someone taking weeks off for a stillbirth is simply something I'd never seen before, and was interested in hearing what others thought about it (not so much interested in hearing what others inferred about my emotional reaction to it). I guess we should stop hiring all of these heterosexuals! <Just joking>