Self Esteem vs Self Respect

[Epigonos]

Self esteem is seen my many as a birth right while self respect is something earned. I'm far more impressed with what people earn rather than what they assume to be their birth right.

[P Gren]

Self esteem is seen my many as a birth right while self respect is something earned. I'm far more impressed with what people earn rather than what they assume to be their birth right.

Self esteem is not the same as privilege. Self esteem is something that is built.

[Epigonos]

I would agree that self respect is something that is built -- self esteem NONSENSE. Most people I have encounter believe it is something one is born with. One does not have to do anything to build it or nurture it - one just has it by the fact of ones birth.

[P Gren]

I would agree that self respect is something that is built -- self esteem NONSENSE. Most people I have encounter believe it is something one is born with. One does not have to do anything to build it or nurture it - one just has it by the fact of ones birth.

I believe you are confusing privilege and self-esteem. A person may be born into privilege, but self-esteem and self-respect are both built and/or undermined through life.

[Epigonos]

No I'm not. I simply do not agree with you.

[nynakedtop]

As a current excellent teacher in a New York City (Title I) public high school (@BOZO T CLOWN continue rotting in hell), I am intentionally keeping a distance from this conversation.

 

I absolutely refuse to be compelled to justify myself here.

[Walker1]

Generally self esteem is more a respect given to a position or title. The esteemed Senator or Judge or Lord or Minister etc. It is not earned-just bestowed to whoever fills that position. At least that is how I see it.

[P Gren]

Generally self esteem is more a respect given to a position or title. The esteemed Senator or Judge or Lord or Minister etc. It is not earned-just bestowed to whoever fills that position. At least that is how I see it.

esteemed and self-esteem are different applications of the same concept - one is externally bestowed (to use your word) and one is internally bestowed (the self part of self-esteem)

[+ FreshFluff]

When someone complains that teachers are stingy with "A" grades keep in mind that college and university administrators and professors constantly accuse high school teacher of ridiculous grade inflation. Frankly you're damned if you do and your damned if you don't . Also keep in mind that academic intelligence in only one type of intelligence but over the last few decades it is the only one that people have come to value. It is certainly true that ALL students need additional educational opportunity after graduation from high school, however, ALL students do NOT need additional academic educational opportunities after graduation from high school.

I taught A.P. Art History. The A.P. stands for advanced placement. At the end of the class all A.P. Art History students world wide take the same examination at the same time on the same day. The exam is graded by a panel of readers in New Jersey. Students exams are graded from 0 to 5. Those scoring 3 or above pass the test and may received college/university credit. Some colleges and universities give credits for a score of 3 others require scores of 4 or 5. Every year I had parents complain that I was demanding too much of their child, that I was moving too fast, and that I wasn't meeting their child's needs. They were correct. The exam covered a 1200 page text book that had to be taught in three quarters. Many of the students taking the class weren't even interested in taking the exam and receiving college/university credit. The stupid fucking University of California decided in their ultimate wisdom that students would receive an extra grade point for simply taking an A.P. class. Thus if a students received an "A" in an A.P. the students received 5 grade points not the usual 4. Talk about inflated GPA's.

 

We’re in violent agreement on this point, hence my use of “browbeat” and scare quotes around “stingy.” AP US history is precisely the kind of class that these parents target.

 

And yes, if a high school starts to give out more As, the to privates will consider the school weaker and take fewer students from there. The parents of weaker students prefer this outcome to the status quo because at least their kids have a chance.

 

As for weighted GPAs, sone schools don’t report them. Of course, the UCs calculate them on their own. Some high schools don’t report the weighted

 

Also keep in mind that forty or fifty years ago the best job opportunities for women were teaching, nursing and being a secretary.

 

I was lucky enough to have great teachers almost every year. But in elementary, I had one with a serious anger problem who clearly couldn’t stand kids. She stated teaching in the late 40s. I’m guessing that had she been born fifty years later, she would have chosen a different profession.

Edited September 17, 2018 by FreshFluff

[Walker1]

I’m guessing that had sge been born fifty years later, she would have chosen a different profession.

 

Some of the angriest, miserable people I have met are people stuck in "dead end " job they hate-but can't leave because of the "golden cages" benefits/pay etc. Some people love it, but the ones who feel stuck and "can't" leave-usually have issues.

[MscleLovr]

"I seriously though(t) twice about starting this t(h)read and it's obvious to me that I made a mistake."

 

@Epigonos I respectfully disagree. I find the thread and what others have posted very interesting. As a European, I always cringe when in the US I hear American parents over-praising their small children for routine effort and accomplishment. I've often wondered how the children would perform in school. Luckily this American habit has not (yet) been widely adopted by Europeans and private schools still demand discipline and hard effort from their pupils.

[bigvalboy]

As a current excellent teacher in a New York City (Title I) public high school (@BOZO T CLOWN continue rotting in hell)

 

Thank you for this.

 

 

I absolutely refuse to be compelled to justify myself here.

 

You don't need to, nor have you ever had to. Your posts over the year or so that I've been reading them, indicate everything that is good and right with the educational system in this country. Your dedication to your students and to their success, has always been admirable. My mother taught for over 30 years, I had aunts and uncles who were school administrators, were head of departments at LA Unified, my cousin, before she retired, owned 6 private schools, and my dear friend, just retired one year ago, was a director/administrator for the Connecticut Board of Education. I say all this because people should know that there are good and decent men and woman out there, like yourself, working every day to give children a fighting chance in this world. I went to school in a different time, thankfully many things have changed for the better in this country, despite who is occupying the West Wing right now. He, like BOZO, will prove to be nothing more than a blip on the screen in this span of history.

 

(It's nice to know that BOZO is not here to make some snide comment)

Edited September 17, 2018 by bigvalboy

[+ WilliamM]

I seriously though twice about starting this thread and it's obvious to me that I made a mistake. Reading many of your comments it is obvious that you never taught school. The average public high school classroom teacher faces approximately 150 to 175 students daily. The average public high school student faces approximately 5 to 6 teachers daily. With those odds guess who must make the adjustments teachers are not messiahas, they can't save the world and they can't meet the needs of all their students every day. Additionally, believe it or not, teachers do have lives and families of their own whose needs they also need to meet. I also found it absurd when some teachers claimed to love their students. I used to tell my students I don't love you, I love my family and I love my friends. I care about whether or not you succeed in my class BUT only as much as you do. I refused to claim that I cared enough for both of us - that's simply not possible. When my students complained about a teacher (some of whom were jerks and assholes) I always responded that those teachers were in actuality outstanding life lessons. All of their lives they were going to have to deal jerks and assholes and the sooner they learned to deal with them the better.

When someone complains that teachers are stingy with "A" grades keep in mind that college and university administrators and professors constantly accuse high school teacher of ridiculous grade inflation. Frankly you're damned if you do and your damned if you don't . Also keep in mind that academic intelligence in only one type of intelligence but over the last few decades it is the only one that people have come to value. It is certainly true that ALL students need additional educational opportunity after graduation from high school, however, ALL students do NOT need additional academic educational opportunities after graduation from high school.

I taught A.P. Art History. The A.P. stands for advanced placement. At the end of the class all A.P. Art History students world wide take the same examination at the same time on the same day. The exam is graded by a panel of readers in New Jersey. Students exams are graded from 0 to 5. Those scoring 3 or above pass the test and may received college/university credit. Some colleges and universities give credits for a score of 3 others require scores of 4 or 5. Every year I had parents complain that I was demanding too much of their child, that I was moving too fast, and that I wasn't meeting their child's needs. They were correct. The exam covered a 1200 page text book that had to be taught in three quarters. Many of the students taking the class weren't even interested in taking the exam and receiving college/university credit. The stupid fucking University of California decided in their ultimate wisdom that students would receive an extra grade point for simply taking an A.P. class. Thus if a students received an "A" in an A.P. the students received 5 grade points not the usual 4. Talk about inflated GPA's.

Also keep in mind that forty or fifty years ago the best job opportunities for women were teaching, nursing and being a secretary. That has now changed and there are excellent opportunities for qualified women in many rewarding fields of endeavor where financial rewards are far greater than in teaching. Thus many of the best educated and motivated women are not going into teaching. When I first started teaching high school about 60% of the teachers were men, about 20% were young unmarried women and about 20% were women whose children were grown and they were returning to teaching. When I retired from teaching about 70% of high school teachers were women many of whom were young and only about 30% were men. Many of the problems that developed during that period were caused by what I call "mommyism" -- young women who taught for the benefits, the length of the school year and the hours of the school day. They were married with young children and they rolled into school with the students and raced the students to their cars at the end of the last school period. They were was to busy once at home to correct papers, prepare exams, or read papers. If came to rely on pre-prepared work sheets and exams and they didn't assign written papers.

I taught 36 years and I loved it from the minute I walked into my first class in the fall of 1966 until I walked out of my last class in the spring of 2002. Early on I realized that in dealing with 15, 16, 17, and 18 year olds my influence was going to be very minor. High school teacher aren't likely to change the live and attitudes of kids who have been influenced by their parents for fifteen plus years.

 

Sorry, your comments about young married female teacher seem unnecessary.

[Epigonos]

WilliamM don't be sorry, I'm not. All I said was the truth as I saw it over a period of several years at my upper middle class public high school. The vast majority of young married female teachers were far more interested in being at home with their children than being in the classroom with their students. They did the bare minimum in their teaching in order to obtain tenure and survive.

I will certainly respect your opinion IF it is based on personal observation and experience in public high schools. If your opinion is not based on personal observation and experience in public high school then it is, in my opinion, worthless.

[Epigonos]

There have been two interesting trends taking place recently concerning parents and their children. There have been two or three articles here regarding parents who insist on accompanying there adult children to appointments with the kid's college/university professors and parents who insist on accompanying their adult children to job interviews after their kids graduate from college/university. Both college/university professors and private company's HR people and not taking very kindly to this new phenomena. Frankly I think we are raising children who are fragile flowers.

[+ FreshFluff]

There have been two interesting trends taking place recently concerning parents and their children. There have been two or three articles here regarding parents who insist on accompanying there adult children to appointments with the kid's college/university professors and parents who insist on accompanying their adult children to job interviews after their kids graduate from college/university. Both college/university professors and private company's HR people and not taking very kindly to this new phenomena. Frankly I think we are raising children who are fragile flowers.

 

I've heard of parents calling bosses, but doesn't bringing them to the interview give the game away? Why would any company hire someone like this?

 

FWIW, I taught college juniors and seniors for several years and never heard from parents of any of my students' parents.

[bnm73]

I've heard of parents calling bosses, but doesn't bringing them to the interview give the game away? Why would any company hire someone like this?

 

FWIW, I taught college juniors and seniors for several years and never heard from parents of any of my students' parents.

 

Calling bosses? You're kidding.

 

If one of my employees had mommy or daddy calling me to complain, I'd call the kid into the office. Then I'd tell him that if he has a problem with how he is treated, he should deal with it within his employment context...talk to his manager, HR, whathaveyou. Then I'd fire their kid. "Entitled prick" is not a protected class under EEOC laws.

 

*sigh*

[nynakedtop]

Thank you for this.

 

 

 

 

You don't need to, nor have you ever had to. Your posts over the year or so that I've been reading them, indicate everything that is good and right with the educational system in this country. Your dedication to your students and to their success, has always been admirable. My mother taught for over 30 years, I had aunts and uncles who were school administrators, were head of departments at LA Unified, my cousin, before she retired, owned 6 private schools, and my dear friend, just retired one year ago, was a director/administrator for the Connecticut Board of Education. I say all this because people should know that there are good and decent men and woman out there, like yourself, working every day to give children a fighting chance in this world. I went to school in a different time, thankfully many things have changed for the better in this country, despite who is occupying the West Wing right now. He, like BOZO, will prove to be nothing more than a blip on the screen in this span of history.

 

(It's nice to know that BOZO is not here to make some snide comment)

 

Love the spirit, the content, and the tone of your posting.

 

It occurs to me that one of the things that makes a good teacher an excellent teacher is an investment not only in the academic achievement of their students, but also an engagement with their social and emotional learning and development. I have met excellent teachers, I have met apathetic teachers, I have met mediocre teachers. It is quite likely one of the more demanding professions and a difficult one to be truly good at. Teachers get blamed for many shortcomings and failures that exist in our society, are the targets of ridicule, are devalued, and even mocked. But, yet, we go to work every days, we spent our nights and weekends working... even our summers are really devoted (either overtly or indirectly) to our professinal development.

 

While the idiot @BOZO T CLOWN was just a grotesque example of the mistreatment of an honorable profession by the poorly informed, when we see teachers and schools in trouble we should really be thinking about how we can make things better, rather than what/who went wrong.

[P Gren]

There have been two interesting trends taking place recently concerning parents and their children. There have been two or three articles here regarding parents who insist on accompanying there adult children to appointments with the kid's college/university professors and parents who insist on accompanying their adult children to job interviews after their kids graduate from college/university. Both college/university professors and private company's HR people and not taking very kindly to this new phenomena. Frankly I think we are raising children who are fragile flowers.

Sounds like an urban myth developing. I've hired (and fired) lots of people, lots and lots in their 20's, never ever heard from a parent, even as a reference.

[+ WilliamM]

@Epigonos,

 

Well, you can limit what you read. But, I doubt you can also limit what people post unless it is wildly off-topic.

 

Concerning married female teachers with kids; true of my 5th and 6th grade teachers. By complete accident, I knew a little about the challenges in their lives away from school.

 

Both teachers never called in sick, and were always prepared. The 5th grade teacher's husband killed himself a year later. My 6th grade teacher's son notified me when his mother died. That Christmas I had sent her holiday greetings.

Edited September 17, 2018 by WilliamM

[bnm73]

There have been two interesting trends taking place recently concerning parents and their children. There have been two or three articles here regarding parents who insist on accompanying there adult children to appointments with the kid's college/university professors and parents who insist on accompanying their adult children to job interviews after their kids graduate from college/university. Both college/university professors and private company's HR people and not taking very kindly to this new phenomena. Frankly I think we are raising children who are fragile flowers.

"Are you a student here/do you work here? Then I'm afraid you're going to have to wait outside."

[+ WilliamM]

"Are you a student here/do you work here? Then I'm afraid you're going to have to wait outside."

 

I would not minded a family member being present once in a while when I had decided to fire someone. And did write occasionally above.

[MikeBiDude]

While the idiot @BOZO T CLOWN was just a grotesque example of the mistreatment of an honorable profession by the poorly informed, when we see teachers and schools in trouble we should really be thinking about how we can make things better, rather than what/who went wrong.

It strikes me that you’re the one keeping the @BOZO T CLOWN spirit alive, you mention him in SO many posts. Clearly you’re not completely over his influence.

[Epigonos]

Nynakedtop in certainly correct when he states that outstanding teachers who love teaching are not only engaged in their students’ academic education but are also “engaged with their social and emotional learning development”. One thing, however, must be kept in mind; people who have taught for a considerable number of years have been engaged with a very large numbers of students. I averaged about 165 students a year and having taught for 36 years that means that over the life of my teaching career I encountered nearly 6000 students. Frankly the vast majority of my students did not need me to be engaged in their social and emotional learning development – they had parents and friends who did an excellent job in those areas. I probably didn’t become engaged in the social and emotional learning development of more than a dozen or two of my students.

 

Two cases only are burned into my mind and heart. In, the first case, I worked with a very mucho macho senior Hispanic student to help him take the California English Language Exit Exam. He had failed the exam several times and was very cavalier about the fact that he didn’t need to graduate. But after he took the exam again and when I informed him that he had finally passed and would thus be able to graduate he literally fell apart. He grabbed me in a bear hug and sobbing kept repeating “oh my god I get to graduate. Needless to say I was crying as hard as he was. The only time in 36 years of teaching I actually felt like Mr. Chips. In the second case I became more of an integral part of the life of a student after he graduated. He came from an economically comfortable upper middle class family. Although the family was economically well off it was totally dysfunctional emotionally. His two older brothers were both druggies, his mother was severely bipolar, and his father had checked out of the family’s life and existed on for work. The kid put himself through a local state university which took him five years instead of the normal four. We used to talk at least once a week and once or twice a month he'd come over to my place for dinner or I’d take him out. He is now 35 and we are still close and every year he attends my Christmas Eve Part. He is now engaged to a great young woman and they are to be married next April. They both now live in Northern California. He recently flew down and took me out to dinner. After dinner back at my place he asked me if I would consider flying up to Napa for his wedding. I assured him that I would and then he blew me away by he asking if I would be his best man. I told him that I was old enough to be his grandfather and that he should rather ask one of his friends. No he said his friends were his friends but I had been his rock when he desperately needed a rock to anchor to. Yea you are correct by this time we were both in tears. So this 78 year old fart will be flying up to Napa in April to be the best man of a 35 year old – go figure.

 

I’m sure I influenced more students to a greater or lesser degree but these are the only two cases in which I believe I was instrumental in their lives. We as teachers sometimes like to believe that we are a major factor in the lives of huge numbers of our students – we are not and we need to understand that and not over estimate our importance.

[N13]

I am put in mind of a tv movie that I saw recently. The mother of a home-schooled student was at the local high school and was standing in front of a trophy case. The principal with great pride asked her what she thought of all the trophies they had won. Her response was, "Not much. These are participation trophies. Nothing to do with winning." To me this is the really sad thing about how children are being raised today. Expectations vs participation. Very discouraging. It teaches them nothing!