OliverSaks

I wouldn’t expect my manicurist to only see one client in a day....

It isn’t really a tough problem.
A tough problem is feeding a family of 4 on a minimum wage job.
 
Have some perspective AND frame flakes as a part of the biz -
 
It’s tiresome to hear provider’s acting like some (basically) crank calls are so devastating. It can be annoying, but there are signals to learn to avoid wild goose chases (@Kevin Slater has given plenty of useful guidance over the years, for instance)
 

I’ve been asked for deposits a couple of times and passed. I don’t like them for a couple of reasons: the loss of privacy incurred with some electronic money transfer channels and the potential of being scammed. It means I’ve missed the opportunity to meet two guys I wanted too. I consider that a lose/lose.
 
Everyone makes their choices on this topic... and on sending face pics... and on requiring condoms for one or both roles... and on PnP.... etc.
 
One perspective is that the potential cost of an provider’s wasted time is greater than the potential cost of a client’s loss of privacy and fraud. I’m pretty flexible and will do many things to make a meeting happen but that rationale doesn’t work for me.
 
So, I’ve decided that I’m ok with being unable to meet deposit-requiring guys. No hard feelings and I wish them the greatest success.
 
[Edit: Do these guys require deposits -> https://www.companyofmen.org/threads/beware-nashville-louisville-cincinnati-indianapolis.151565/ ]

This post is problematic, particularly in the context of m4m massage. What the linked article designates as "enthusiastic consent" may be the ideal for some people--particularly in non-remunerative kinds of sexual exchange (which m4m massage isn't)--but it is not only wrongheaded but a refusal to engage in dialogue to call all other kinds of sexual exchange "wrong" and any form of consent that doesn't involve detailed questions and answers about all aspects of the encounter "coercion," "intimidation," and "assault."
 
 
One thing that strikes me here (and, honestly, in many of the threads on this forum) is the implicit condemnation of providers and expressions of perceived superiority by many of the clients who post. I've heard just as many complaints from masseurs about clients who grab their dicks or expect sex when that is not agreed to or advertised, as well as clients who don't show up, show up late, or refuse to pay the agreed upon price. Many clients who post on this site gleefully describe what they get away with or how they got escort service for the price of a massage. The disjuncture between the acceptance of these behaviors and attitudes on the behalf of clients and the outrage-more-than-outrage (calling for an unnamed masseur to be publicly shamed, to have his business ruined, even to be reported to the police) suggests a denial about the actual power dynamic at work in m4m massage and the sense of entitlement many of us bring to the scene. It’s not to say that masseurs are angels or victims; they’re people and workers who are more or less good at their jobs. We clients are the ones, however, holding the purse; the ones who get to scroll through pages of (usually younger and better-looking than us) possible masseurs and select the one who suits our fancy; the ones who get to say, "I want this and this kind of intimacy but not that kind or that kind" (Masseurs only have the right of refusal); and the ones who feel free to go on this public forum and ridicule masseurs in every possible way. It all smells of the classic disrespect (to use the mildest word possible) for those who provide the body and sex work that is so valuable to all of us.
 
I've tried to stick to the post that originated this conversation in my comments. That post does not describe a person with a history of abuse (although there might be) that made him vulnerable in particular ways. It does not describe an incident of drugging ("Massage bliss" does not deprive a person of the power to consent). It does not describe being physically overpowered or a fear of being physically overpowered. It does not describe a masseur who ignored an expression of lack of consent (“no means no”). Most of all it DOES describe a context in which a sexual encounter (erotic massage) was requested and agreed to. It describes a masseur who did any number of acts that pleased the client which, apparently, were not cleared in advance (and which were they to be non-consensual, would be sexual assault). The post suggests that the non-verbal refusal of consent (turning the head to the other side) to the offer of oral sex was respected by the masseur. The non-refusal of consent in the non-verbal request to penetrate anally (the brushing of the penis against the ass, while on top of the client) was apparently taken by the masseur to mean consent. The non-refusal of consent once the penetration began was apparently taken by the masseur as affirmation of consent.
 
The value of this thread, for me, is not to trash an anonymous masseur--and especially not to trash the poster--but to discuss the m4m massage experiences we have. The initial post made me thoughtful about my expectations from men who are only in the room with me because I am paying them, about my comfort level around sex generally, and about my relationship to sexual spontaneity, including the use of condoms. Something has seemed not quite right about the perhaps majority opinion on this site that one should be clear in advance about exactly what one expected from the massage. Reading and thinking about this thread has helped me understand that my discomfort with communicating explicit requests to a masseur who has not met me and expecting him to match them is not because I'm excited by the unknown (I actually wish I could always count on certain things in an erotic massage). I think it's because it's dehumanizing to treat a masseur like someone who doesn't have their own sexuality, dignity, or moods. It's my privilege as a client to not only have a strong sense in advance of who and what I'm getting (unless their ad is misleading, in which case I can just walk away) but also to punish them economically if I'm not satisfied (by stiffing them or trashing them on a site like this). In our dehumanizing imagination of masseurs, however, we expect that, sight unseen, we are entitled to require them to do precisely this and precisely not that in the massage. It's why I try to accept the broad parameters of an erotic massage. There are minimum, generally understood things that define a massage as erotic (partial, usually total nudity), mutual touch of some kind, and contact of some sort with the clients ass/penis. Once we meet and--especially the masseur who is getting a look at me for the first time--begin to get a sense of each other, those parameters get specified. Beyond the bare minimum implied by the term "erotic," I have to accept what occurs when they do or don't respond to my signals. Too many of us feel that a couple of hundred bucks entitles us to anything with another human being.
I hope every client reading this thread and this forum understands that some erotic massages lead to fucking, which many of us, many times, desire, and that many people fuck without a condom, unless one asks otherwise. I hope every masseur reading this thread understands how attentive he needs to be to a client's signals (and lack of signals), especially regarding something as fraught as anal sex.

Nothing like that, porn-wise, but my conservative Lutheran grandparents did stop by a couple days ago and they did definitely catch sight of the hot pink 5" stiletto heels that I sometimes wear around the house. Grampa looked embarrassed, and Gramma just said, "I really wish you wouldn't do things like that." lol

1) college tuition rates have exploded (and a degree is MANDATORY, even for many, many entry-level positions)
2) rental costs / real estate has exploded
3) wage growth has not even close to kept up with 1 & 2
 
Just for fun, plugging into various inflation calculators online, 1,500$ in 1975 would be around 7,000$ today
 
1500 a year tuition at a top ten med school?! It cost me 35,000 in tuition a year for my middle of the road state med school (my friends from out of state were paying 60k plus for tuition) - 12,000 for tuition per year undergrad at my state school
- I won’t go into all the specific ways that our universities are just squeezing every penny out of students, but they have found *such* creative ways (coursepacks, online problem sets, lab fees, etc)
 
Boomers, the world is not the same and no amount of avoiding Avocado Toast is going to save my generation - I’m very thankful for the generosity of my Boomer clientele, but please, be real about how things are

1) college tuition rates have exploded (and a degree is MANDATORY, even for many, many entry-level positions)
2) rental costs / real estate has exploded
3) wage growth has not even close to kept up with 1 & 2
 
Just for fun, plugging into various inflation calculators online, 1,500$ in 1975 would be around 7,000$ today
 
1500 a year tuition at a top ten med school?! It cost me 35,000 in tuition a year for my middle of the road state med school (my friends from out of state were paying 60k plus for tuition) - 12,000 for tuition per year undergrad at my state school
- I won’t go into all the specific ways that our universities are just squeezing every penny out of students, but they have found *such* creative ways (coursepacks, online problem sets, lab fees, etc)
 
Boomers, the world is not the same and no amount of avoiding Avocado Toast is going to save my generation - I’m very thankful for the generosity of my Boomer clientele, but please, be real about how things are

1) college tuition rates have exploded (and a degree is MANDATORY, even for many, many entry-level positions)
2) rental costs / real estate has exploded
3) wage growth has not even close to kept up with 1 & 2
 
Just for fun, plugging into various inflation calculators online, 1,500$ in 1975 would be around 7,000$ today
 
1500 a year tuition at a top ten med school?! It cost me 35,000 in tuition a year for my middle of the road state med school (my friends from out of state were paying 60k plus for tuition) - 12,000 for tuition per year undergrad at my state school
- I won’t go into all the specific ways that our universities are just squeezing every penny out of students, but they have found *such* creative ways (coursepacks, online problem sets, lab fees, etc)
 
Boomers, the world is not the same and no amount of avoiding Avocado Toast is going to save my generation - I’m very thankful for the generosity of my Boomer clientele, but please, be real about how things are

Considering that for years research has ignored women and thus not noticed differences in presentation of symptoms or the efficacy and safety of drugs, calling this "gender politics...masquerading as science" is insulting. The people who have died, suffered and been misdiagnosed because women aren't included in studies would disagree with you.

Yeah, this, but also:
 
Do not come into my inbox with a sex act and a dollar amount!!!!
That is illegal (and down right immoral, if you ask me ?)

Yeah, this, but also:
 
Do not come into my inbox with a sex act and a dollar amount!!!!
That is illegal (and down right immoral, if you ask me ?)

Yeah, this, but also:
 
Do not come into my inbox with a sex act and a dollar amount!!!!
That is illegal (and down right immoral, if you ask me ?)

Yeah, this, but also:
 
Do not come into my inbox with a sex act and a dollar amount!!!!
That is illegal (and down right immoral, if you ask me ?)

Happens with some frequency, easy peasy / not hard to accommodate

I can tell you, it gets better.
2 years ago I had sextuple bypass at 59
Post surgery it took me about 2 weeks to be able to move about with ease. I wasn’t allowed to drive for 12 weeks. Showering was a challenge but with a stool inside my walk-in I was able to manage.
I was extremely cautious with general movement as I was petrified I’d adversely affect the healing of my sternum.
While I wasn’t in horrible shape before surgery I was definitely more a couch potato.
Today I’m down 50 lbs, I walk/run 5 miles a day, walk up and down stairs in lieu of elevators or escalators, am totally vegan and doing great.
Good luck with your recovery. Sorry I didn’t see your post earlier.

I’m coming :-)
Inndulge, still some rooms of most room types left, 4 day minimum

I do not meet with people anymore who I know are using stimulants. The unpredictability is not good for my peace of mind and it is not worth the risk to my safety. Learned this lesson early on when I was young and new, and it hasn’t failed me adhering to this since.
 
I worry about people using regularly, especially working men, but I can understand the many reasons people do. Methamphetamine is so strongly reinforcing that it just seems like something that is best not to try.
 
I’m a proponent of cannabis and consciousness-expanding substances, to be clear that this stance is not some “higher moral ground” anti drug rhetoric. What prolonged, high dose methamphetamine use does to the brain and the dopamine system is just not good.
 
@Kurtis Wolfe, I would suggest an organization like DanceSafe.org, which does harm reduction work nationally and includes fentanyl test strip distribution and drug testing at events. https://dancesafe.org/
(TEST YOUR DRUGS PEOPLE!)
There may also be other organizations work specifically for queer + trans POC using methamphetamine, which as @hypothetically mentioned is an epidemic especially around SWers (http://actupny.com/ has some focused harm reduction efforts)
 
#fuckEdBuck #EdBuckisASerialKiller
 
Finally, if any posters have questions or concerns about drug use, I’m happy to chat privately, off-camera.

I started posting my dates in the ad text (about me) as well as through the RM travel location section and it has cut down on some nonsense that I was getting

probably belongs in the deli

I started posting my dates in the ad text (about me) as well as through the RM travel location section and it has cut down on some nonsense that I was getting

I started posting my dates in the ad text (about me) as well as through the RM travel location section and it has cut down on some nonsense that I was getting

Radical career change in my 20s...
 
Loving the decision so far ?

Standing in solidarity with Amazon workers striking
+
Rejecting consumerism
=
Nothing on Prime Day

I assume that everyone on this board can probably not buy from Amazon for two days, that is correct.

Crossing the picket line, digitally or physically, is not supporting the striking workers.