Simon Suraci

To effectively search, it’s important topics are spelled correctly. Frequently a poster will misspell a provider’s name or city and it’s then impossible to search for that topic. Not sure what the solution is other than manual mod busywork to correct typos and I wouldn’t want to put that extra work on the team. Maybe members suggest corrections in the thread itself and address the comment to the respective moderator? 🤷‍♂️

I understand. This is a fair point on both the client side and provider side. To each their own. One way to address this concern:

You might start by asking before you book if the masseur is comfortable discussing sensual/erotic aspects of their service. This step is an opportunity for the masseur to say “Sorry, I offer therapeutic only”, or maybe he prefers discussing those details over the phone instead of putting it in writing. Many of the guys will say yes. That gives you an opportunity to ask things like “do you offer mutual touch”, or “do you offer a happy ending?”, and so on. If they have higher rates or additional fees for extras, they can break it down for you right there. Or say that XYZ is included, or that ABC is an upcharge. That works well for me. I like dealing with business before and after table time, so that you can relax and enjoy your massage and get exactly what you want with no anxiety about what it costs or if something you want to happen actually will. I want satisfied clients. One of the most irritating questions is “What is included in your massage?” The client has something in mind they want. I’d rather them just ask for it and I say yes or no. Or discuss pricing depending on their particular needs. That’s just me. No need to beat around the bush. And man, have I seen some bushes in my day…and beaten around them. Have I mentioned I offer body trimming? 😆

It’s a very fine line to walk. Skilled is the man who can do this without giving off a pushy vibe. I’ve done it successfully before, but it’s not my strength. Occasionally I upsell before the appointment, when a client is booking. For example, “Would you like to add a body scrub? It’s popular with my clients.” I have lots of room for improvement in marketing and selling. The good news is my services sell themselves. The hurdle is getting people to try them when they otherwise wouldn’t. I have clients who have seen me for over a year before trying the body scrub and comment something to the effect of: “I’m never skipping this service again. It should be mandatory!” Here is one subtle way I indicate more services are available that I do not explicitly advertise: In addition to beautiful homoerotic art, I have some functional wall ‘decor’ hanging on hooks that ignites client curiosity and leads some to ask about how I use it, and if they might try something related in their next session. If it’s in the middle of the current session, I discuss it freely and mention it has a different pricing structure without getting into the weeds. I still defer to the “let’s discuss the nitty gritty business details afterwards” approach.

I err on the side of caution. @DWnycHow do you suggest, from the client perspective, the best way to go about upselling, assuming time is no issue for them or for me? Assume it’s a first time client and I have no info about previous client interest, or their willingness or ability to pay? Again…the scenario is the client is asking for services, or assuming something is already included that isn’t…not me suggesting or bringing it up out of nowhere. Not sure how to handle this because every client is different. I would say from past experience way more than 50% of the time one of the factors is working against us like time or willingness to pay or ability to pay. A lot of times a client will scoff or be put off by a high number, or saddened and disappointed because they’re willing but unable to pay it. Kind of ruins the vibe. Since one of these is more than likely to occur, I generally avoid having the conversation after the session begins. If the client asks for something directly and makes it very clear that they are able and willing to pay, I have no problems discussing and offering services, but that is exceedingly rare. Most clients have a hard time asking for even the most basic of things like more/less pressure. I appreciate a direct client. There’s no reason to be embarrassed or shy about your needs.

Unforgivable, unprofessional, cheap. This happened to me recently with another guy and I was shocked and embarrassed for him. More on him soon - this was one of many red flags. Any serious masseur will invest in a premium account whether it be Pandora, Spotify, or other. Pandora premium is $13/mo. Insignificant investment when you’re considering making many hundreds to thousands a month depending on how much you work. We pay much more than that for our massage ads. Like those ads, this is just a normal cost of doing business. More on ad costs in this post:

For me, it’s the opposite where the client asks, demands, or begs for more services and I have to say “Yes, I can do xyz for you, but during your next session, let’s discuss details afterward.” Instead of using that opportunity to upsell or pressure the client, I deflect to keep the client’s best interests in mind. I would much rather the client have an excellent experience and want to return, or become a regular, than try to extract whatever I can in a single visit while they’re in a poor position to make considered decisions. The last thing I want to do to a client is pause the massage to discuss additional services and pricing. That is not a relaxing state of mind to shift to when you’re trying to enjoy a good massage. Also, just from a practical standpoint, if the client wants more time and/or more services, I may not have availability in the case of a client being booked right afterwards, or there may be prep work required like heating stones beforehand. Or what they need requires notice to offer them good service. Plus the client may be paying cash and may not be prepared to pay more at that time. Again, not something you want to think about or discuss during your massage.

It seldom happens, but I have to admit once in a while my wifi connection has a little blip and the playlist ends after a song instead of continuing to play through the list. I have to start playing another list because going back and finding the right song and pressing play will take way too much time versus a few seconds playing another fresh list. 30 seconds of your masseur NOT working on you without any music feels like an eternity, much less a full minute, so I’m very sensitive to that. When it happens that odd time, in my head sirens and lights are flashing while I try not to panic as I quickly remedy the situation. My music plays on Amazon speakers and they are utterly dependent on a constant, stable wifi connection. I can’t control the wifi connection. I apologize on behalf of others in the same boat. Depending on your masseur’s setup, it oftentimes is not his fault, it’s out of his control. Quick note on Bluetooth. This is another (arguably) more stable option, but for surround sound multiple speakers work best, and linking through wifi seems to be the best way to do that without wiring directly to one or more devices. I’m open to suggestions. My building has a fire alarm system. Again, it rarely happens, but a couple times a year a false alarm starts from somewhere else in the building and I have to end the massage. It’s really frustrating. Again, not under my control, at least not until I move. Still annoying though, for both client and masseur.

Oh god, that’s awful. Someone has been watching too much porn. They usually use baby oil in those clips. It’s so bad. Heated oil is unnecessary for a great massage, but if it’s used, it should always be in a proper oil warming device. Better yet, warm his hands before starting, or use hot stones from a proper purpose built stone heater.

PSA to clients: please keep in mind this is the most common reason your masseurs do not text you back “immediately”. You can’t have it both ways. Immediate responses 100% of the time AND their full, uninterrupted attention during the session? Usually it’s one or the other. Unless you happen to luck out on your timing, and it’s exactly that: luck. I’m careful not to detract any attention from my client to my phone during their session. The good masseurs are focused on you for the whole session. Have grace when inquiring and it takes a while to get a response. It’s not uncommon, for example, for me to have a two hour client appointment, plus time after (still not texting other clients) to wrap up, accept payment, walk the client out, chit chat, etc. There’s no clear agreed-upon standard regarding an acceptable amount of time to return texts. For me, it’s up to 2-3 hours, most often I respond much sooner than that and obviously within minutes if I’m otherwise free. Response times have been discussed on several other forums at length. Same with hours to contact your provider. Here’s one related thread on that topic:

Yeah, exactly, it’s totally uncharacteristic of me. That’s why I was so mortified. I never would have wanted that situation put upon myself or wished it on someone else. I consider it a cautionary tale about excess alcohol intake, and a reminder to treat people with the same respect I appreciate. One of many ways to do so is to avoid getting completely trashed so as to be more in control of my own behavior and in my right mind. I am that guy who cringes at hitting on the UPS guy, but I’m also the one to think to myself, “damn, that UPS guy looks good in those shorts”. I just keep it to myself. Apparently, when I’m drunk my filter goes straight out the window and I become a lovey-dovey dick face. 🤷‍♂️🍆😵‍💫🍆🤷‍♂️

Fair point @Unicorn. I think some guys would make a huge eye roll or be put off by it. Some would be flattered. Some may seriously consider the offer. Props to the men who have the gumption to be so brash and forward. I would probably need some liquid courage to do it if I were interested in hiring. I have to be careful though. I go from “loose as a goose” at 2-3 drinks to “goose on the loose” at 5-6 drinks! A version of this happened at my last employer holiday party when I had that one more drink I probably shouldn’t have. The guy did not work directly with me, as he was in a remote office in another city so I barely knew him. He’s extremely hot, very masculine, and by all accounts of discussing his life, also completely straight. Some topic about gay stuff came up in our group of coworkers, and I joked “none of you would understand, you’re straight…but this guy [pointing to him], I don’t know about him!” He grinned, blushed, and shrugged his shoulders. Incredulous, I paused, and then kissed him right on the lips in front of everyone. He was into it. It was no peck either. Turns out he wasn’t so straight after all. At the end of the night, I slapped his ass as he got in his rideshare. Recalling everything the next morning, I was mortified. I never would have behaved so brazenly sober. Given, this has nothing to do with hiring, but I feel relevant to maintaining strictly professional relationships at work. Fortunately nobody made a big deal of it or brought it up. What happened at the bar, in this case, stayed at the bar.

What ways do you propose are ethical and appropriate to approach someone who doesn’t work in the same place as yourself (but still works with/for you in some capacity, however limited)?

^I agree. It’s much worse when they are a subordinate in your organization. Even if you don’t work with the person, say, at the same company, they may be working for you in a service capacity, if only for a short time like in the case of the server, or periodically in the case of the delivery driver, or perhaps even a healthcare provider. In either case, the prospective hire has no choice in the matter of having to be around you and interact with you in the context of doing their work. The concept applies in both scenarios; it’s just more egregious to proposition in the first scenario, but no more respectful in the second scenario to proposition someone.

A few thoughts. Propositioning is fine. Adults can choose what they are willing to do regardless of economic status, relationship status, or sexual identity. People can simply ignore or say no, or say yes and participate freely. The context of a proposition, however, matters. In particular, I advise not using the prospective hire’s work context as a way to propose an arrangement. For example, the pizza boy, the restaurant server, the ups delivery guy, the intern at your professional job, etc. These guys may or (often) may NOT appreciate your sexual advances, but they have to perform their jobs anyway. They’re a captive audience and they are in many ways beholden to you because of the work relationship context. They signed up to get paid for the work they are currently performing. They did not sign up to be harassed, pressured, or groomed to perform sex work. It’s just gross to me when I consider how a person must feel when they are obligated to be around people at their work context that hint at, or even openly propose, an arrangement. Seems disrespectful to me at the very least. Treat people like human beings, not pieces of meat. They are just trying to do their jobs. Other contexts are more suitable. Drawing from some of the previously mentioned scenarios, I think it's fine to propose an arrangement with a random guy at a bar, or a fellow gym-goer, or some other context where they are not working with you or for you. There's no power dynamic or forced interaction that way. Strippers, go-go dancers and sex work adjacent fields are more appropriate because the potential hire is already signing up for a situation where they are being paid on some level for their sex appeal. Even bartenders know they flirt for better tips, but it's still their job to serve you drinks, not part of their job to be pressured or even asked to do sex work. No means no, so respect that, even if their job is to wave their balls in a g-string at your face. Same applies when someone ignores an advance. Respect that and move on. Hookup apps are tricky. In the US you aren't supposed to advertise services or proposition and you can easily be banned or busted for doing so. Yes, it's a sexual context so I see the natural segway. No, it's not someone's place of non-sexual work, so nothing slimy there either. BUT you're taking unnecessary risks. The best, most appropriate places to hire are platforms like rentmen (and others) because they are designed precisely for providers and clients to connect and make arrangements. If you insist on hiring random guys who aren't providers…or you get off on the whole gay for pay IRL fantasy, feel free to leave your notes with phone numbers, envelopes of cash, verbal proposals, or what have you. BUT please keep your propositions out of your regular business transactions and work contexts. People work. The last thing they need is pressure and advances from a creepy guy when they are simply trying to do their job. As to the whole capitalism system rants, I give up. Those are bigger topics perhaps beyond the scope of the OP subject at hand - best leave those conversations to the politics section or create a new thread.

Me too. I’d love to have tea with @Jamie21 someday. I didn’t realize it was your birthday. Happy birthday!

I saw Grant recently. Stunning guy in person, just gorgeous. Very masculine presence, if that does it for you. Terrible amateur massage, poor communication skills, rescheduled me just hours before my appointment, his hour massage lasts only a 1/2 hr…BUT you’re paying for the view, in this case of the oceanfront variety during golden hour, and he offers some limited extras. Considering the above, there’s no other way he could get away with charging what he does when you have much more competent masseurs from a technical and business standpoint. For some, I think he’s probably worth it, depending on your priorities. TBH I would recommend hiring him for escort services instead of massage. He offers them. Although I can’t speak to his escort service because I only hired him for massage, I have every confidence he would please many a client. FYI he’s a bottom. Grant is open to collaborations with me. Hoping to work with him soon, pending the right client request pops up that would be appropriate to bring him in.

Ideas guys, it’s just ideas to try, not a script lol 😂

Thanks for clarifying. This makes a lot more sense in context. Yeah I often wonder about the whole cops fishing for illegal activity thing, especially online. It’s best to be as prudent as possible and look for hiring or to be hired in the appropriate places. Not hookup apps and the like. Those just are not designed for that, so you’re innately going to get far more of the problem types on both sides of a hiring relationship. Let hookup apps be for…hooking up!

Yes! It’s part of engaging another culture. Remember, Americans, you’re on their turf wherever you may be visiting outside the US. Their norms are what matter when you’re visiting a different place, so educate yourselves and be open minded. In Morocco, I had many a cup of mint tea with the merchants while shopping in the souks. I actually love mint tea even with all the sugar Moroccans typically add to match my equally sweet tooth, but I understood that this was part of the business culture. It’s just what you do! It would be rude to refuse. Also, I got a lot of great deals that way. Price negotiation is also part of their culture and honestly, for me, part of the fun. I treasure those experiences.

If I’m interpreting correctly, each party was interested in paying the other for service? What a great indication of a mutual interest match. Truly.

Here is a copy of my rimmer’s pocket guide, this time formatted in black and bold for easier reading. Dark mode is so much easier on your eyes, guys. Anyway, for those who insist on living way back in the light ages... Rimming 101 1. Cleanliness. Be sure the rimmee is clean and prepared so there’s no anxiety about it. If either of you prefer natural, musky, sweaty, or not cleaned out at all, have good communication beforehand to get on the same page. 2. Foreplay. Get warmed up and build up some anticipation. Do not rush. Kiss, touch, oral (cocks), nipples, stimulate erogenous zones, neck, ears, pits, whatever gets both of you going. 3. Control. The rimmer should initiate rimming. Move your partner’s body, even throw him around a bit if you like. Indicate with your body language that his hole is yours and you’re taking it. Assuming you’ve both worked out some mutual consent beforehand. 4. Position. Some enjoy doggie style or 69 style rimming. These are fine to mix it up, but they offer less access and a suboptimal angle. You’re fighting to get in there to the best places. The first and primary position I recommend is with the rimmee on their back, at the edge of a bed or comfortable horizontal surface. A sling works well too. The important thing is both of you are comfortable, and the rimmer’s body is lower than the rimmee’s. Don’t strain your neck getting low. Raise your partner to a comfortable level and consider bolstering their pelvis with a pillow. You’re going to be in this position for a while and you don’t want to be preoccupied with fucking up your neck. You might also consider a knee pillow or something to cushion your knees. 5. Do not neglect his balls. Start with the taint and scrotum, and return to them periodically. Take advantage of how sensitive his scrotum is right off the bat and apply light pressure with your tongue, almost like running your fingertips over his body. This will drive him crazy. Run your tongue all the way up to the side of his cock and around each side of his scrotum. Then run down the taint and back up the middle of the scrotum. At points, return to this technique throughout the rimming session. It feels better and better the more turned on he gets. Vary the pressure at times, using your whole tongue with heavier pressure, and then medium, then light. Vary with using just the tip of your tongue. 6. Avoid over stimulating the opening or going inside too deep or too often. A lot of men just shove their tongue directly into the opening and try to worm their way inside. Do NOT do this. Rimming is a dance, a tease, and an extended buildup of pleasure. It’s all about anticipation, not arrival. By all means you can do the worm move, but use it sparingly, as a surprise, an accent, a flourish, not the main thing. It quickly gets repetitive and boring on its own, and you tend to overstimulate that way. 7. Magic button. This is the secret to mindblowing rimming sessions. For spatial reference, he’s lying on his back now, and you’re kneeling in front of him. Men have a very sensitive point above their opening, at the base of their taint. It’s not a button, more of a divet, a slight depression. Magic button is sexier than saying divet. Call it what you will. You can find it by running your tongue above their opening and finding some muscles running just to either side of it in a downward V shape. For those of you familiar with finding a clitoris, it’s not that far removed of a process, except there’s nothing sticking out to draw out. You have to find it buried within the tissue, almost like giving a deep tissue massage. (Damn, I’m good at my job!) The button is at the top of that V point, close to the outer edge of sensitive skin surrounding the hole, but still within it. It’s not inside the opening. Go above the opening. It takes a lot of practice finding the button. Don’t be discouraged. Practice, practice, practice. 8. Once you’ve found the magic button, press with the tip of your tongue into it. Vary your pressure from heavy to light. Maintain firm pressure, then release, then barely touch it. Switch up your stimulation techniques. Tickle it, tease it. Try everything you can to stimulate in just a little different way, and keep changing it. Vary your patterns and switch it up. The button is a powerful sensation point, but just like the glans penis, it’s not everything. Come back to it regularly but please keep a balance of stimulating ALL the areas around his hole. Do not overstimulate any one spot. That is KEY to your success. 9. Use your breath. Suck in air slowly, and then rapidly. Concentrate it in a small opening in your lips, or over your whole open mouth, and everything in between. When you suck in air, it cools the surface of his skin. It’s quite stimulating, especially when combined with other techniques at the same time or one right after the other. Similarly, slowly exhaling warm air will stimulate him in a little different way. The contrast between warm and cool is mesmerizing. Controlled breathing can even be part of your tantric practice if you want to incorporate it with your rimming skills. You can almost go into a trance. 10. Use your hair. If you have a beard, use it to your advantage. Push your chin up into the bowl of his hole and run it up and over across the taint and onto his balls. Use this technique periodically and return to it here and there. If your facial hair is particularly coarse, soften it with beard oil and conditioning products. Nobody wants steel wool on their asshole. If you have stubble, be VERY careful. It’s a hazard with rimming because you can get carried away in the moment and scratch him inadvertently. It really hurts. Stubble can be nice when used in a controlled way, but generally does not feel good on sensitive skin, especially for extended periods. If your chin is smooth or freshly shaven, use it similarly as mentioned above. It’s a different sensation but equally good to provide some variety. If you have long hair on your head, incorporate that stimulation into your routine. 11. Use your nose. Yup, that’s right. Don’t laugh, it’s seriously a great technique. Run your nose up and down, all over. Do the same breath techniques already mentioned, but through your nostrils. Press your nose directly into his opening. You don’t need to fuck him this way, just use pressure. It’s kind of like frottage in that way. Use your nose as a way to provide more and varied pressure everywhere, including the taint. Come back to using your nose here and there, but not for a long time at a stretch. As with any of these tips, do a little bit of everything. See what drives him crazy, see what sticks. Then withhold it from him and surprise him with it later…so much so that he squeals and begs! 12. Use your tongue. Obviously. What is not so obvious is to maintain variety. Use your whole broad tongue up from the ass crack all the way over his hole, up over his taint, past his balls, and lick his cock. Then try medium pressure, or less tongue contact, or just the tip, or light contact. Try slow, like VERY slow. That drives him nuts. Occasionally go faster, but not for the majority or for a long stretch. Too many men try to go too fast for too long. It’s too fucking much! Just calm down and take your time. It’s not a race. Please avoid: tickling and swaying with the tip of your tongue the way Eastern European porn actors kiss. It’s annoying. Be more intentional. Get more creative. 13. Involve his cheeks. Lightly bite or lick his ass cheeks. Use your hands. Rub your beard or chin against them. The hole is not everything. Cheek play provides more variety and more stimulation. 14. Hold his legs. Check in regularly. Sometimes he needs a break for his legs. Rimming can’t go forever otherwise he’s too raw. Find the right limit for you both, and don’t be afraid to move on to something else and come back to rimming later. Often rimming is foreplay leading to penetration, but it’s a worthwhile activity on it’s own. 15. Spread his cheeks. But not the whole time. Use this technique as another form of variety. The sensation is slightly different when you do this. Even better with the contrast of not doing it and then returning to it later. 16. Vary your motions. Try spelling something with letters across his hole, or whatever it takes to get you to avoid making the same dull motions over and over. Avoid too much monotony. Every 30 seconds change at least one item from the above list, by adding, changing, or taking away. Variety is paramount to your success. 17. Stimulate his cock. Rimming is about his hole, not his cock. However, feel free to add a little cock stimulation, a little lick, a little stroke, a little brush. This can be pretty sexy and gives more variety. If he’s hard, you might consider stroking him. If he’s soft, don’t worry, it’s completely normal and more typical for him to be flaccid. He can still be extremely turned on in this state, so do not take that as an indication of your success. His breathing, moaning, arching, verbal affirmations, and so on also tell you you’re both on your way to bliss. 18. Ditch the underwear. It’s sexy beforehand, but you need full access. Not just jockstrap level openness. You need the whole damn buffet on display to work your magic. Use all the tools in your box and use the whole box laid out in front of you, not just one corner. And if the box is only half open, rip off whatever is in your way and proceed with passion. 19. Most importantly, love what you do. If you’re not into it, it shows. [good] Rimming is not for everyone, certainly not the faint of heart. If you’re not into it, please save your partner the annoyance of performing a half-assed rim job, pun intended. 20. When he begs you to fuck him, you know you’re doing something right. 21. Advanced technique ***approach with extreme caution***: Biting the magic button. If and only if, and when you master the magic button, experiment with biting it. By that, I mean in a very controlled way. Softly. Think of the way you might nibble on someone’s earlobe, or maybe their nipples, but not hard like some guys enjoy their nipples tortured. Please do not attempt without consent, or without mastering the magic button. If you are not sure you have, you most definitely have not mastered the magic button. It takes a long time and lots of practice to even find it, much less master it. If you manage to do all of that, then consider experimenting with some light, controlled biting. It places pressure in a concentrated point where extreme pleasure is centered. Do not do this for an extended time. Only a little nip for a few seconds here and there. That’s all you need. It’s the cherry on top, not a scoop below.

I like your attitude here @Jaroslav . I think we can all benefit to remember we’re here for good reasons from sharing information to entertainment, to enjoying community. Disagreements and back and forth debates are natural. We don’t have to take them all that seriously. I can occasionally take it too seriously and then remember: oh yeah, duh, this is pretty low stakes stuff. I’m grateful we have the space to talk about everything we do on these forums. I’ve learned quite a bit so far. I like hearing other perspectives. I learn more that way.

@SirBillybob rivals even my long-winded contributions 😂

^This is an opinion.