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Are You Homophobic?


Lance_Navarro
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I've recently been chatting with a guy that I've seen once as a client (fairly typically appointment) but I've been talking to him about considering Surrogate Partner Therapy, as he could use some therapy and healing from past abuses and abandonment. Many of the feelings and thoughts he has shared demonstrate internalized homophobia, including the feeling that gay men are inherently conniving and wanting to hurt one another.

Ive seen similar comments here on the forum, so I wanted to discuss the topic of internalized homophobia. Comments that generalize how gay men "are" or what they should be, or attempts to shame gay men that don't blend in and conform to "masculine" standards are just a few examples of how internalized homophobia shows itself. Here's a great segment from an article I found, which can be viewed in its entirety HERE.

 

"Internalized homophobia is a concept much more nuanced than it’s simple definition would suggest. It is clear that the word “homophobia” in this context, is misleading – the over simplified idea that it is individual acts of fear and ignorancediverts our attention from the much more pervasive systemic oppression that is at the root of the problem. The hateful and intolerant behavior of those closest to us often has the most profound impact (parents, church community, peers, partners). While they should be held responsible as individuals, the real culprit is an aggressively heterosexist society that is defining what is “normal,” and therefore what is “right” and “wrong,” through laws, policy, culture, education, health care, religion and family life. This systemic oppression is meant to enforce the gender binary, marginalize LGBTQ people, and keep heterosexual people and their relationships in a position of dominance and privilege.

 

When we see that homophobia is a result of a this larger system, we see that it is institutional; that it is impossible to exist outside of it; that the real definition of it is so much more than the dictionary simplicity of “irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals;” that the root structure is vast, affecting every aspect of life and culture. All of these factors make dismantling heterosexism extremely complicated, and uprooting internalized homophobia even more so.

 

The awareness of stigma that surrounds homosexuality leads the experience to become an extremely negative one; shame and secrecy, silence and self-awareness, a strong sense of differentness – and of peculiarity – pervades the consciousness.’ (Plumer,1996). The role of secrecy and dishonesty in cases of internalized homophobia, is significant. Some examples include:

 

  • Denial – ranging from aggressive and hateful behavior to denying yourself the life and love you desire;
  • Lying to yourself about attraction and sexuality;
  • The inability to “come out” if you want to, and if you can safely. (see more about “coming out below);
  • Being selectively “out” (see “coming out” below);
  • Secret relationships;
  • Forcing others to keep secrets or remain in the closet;
  • Lying by omission"

Edited by Lance_Navarro
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I think we all are homophobic up to different degrees. In our formative years we were shaped by mainstream culture, that is homophobic, racist, mysoginistic, etc., up to different degrees. Those of us who were fortunate enough to break with that indoctrination spend the rest of our lives fighting against those mandates with more or less success.

I think the biggest danger is not being homophobic but believing we are not.

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@Lance_Navarro, thanks for bringing this topic up. It's always worth discussing our internal biases because raising awareness helps us unpack them and hopefully put them away for good. By the way, hemophobia is a fear of blood. I'm guessing whatever autocomplete/spellcheck used may have some internalized homophobia. ;)

 

We all have internalized bigotries. It's impossible to be human and not have some because of our lovely biology. The key is being aware of them so we can respond accordingly. I know I have some internalized homophobia that centers around stereotypical "fem" representation. I have a real thing for "masculine men." Exploring that interest and trying to understand why I feel that way and how it manifests has given me years of self-reflection.

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I don't believe I'm homophobic, but I've become very aware that I'm quite the bigot regarding some behaviors. The conflict between behaviors seen and @latbear4blk's phrase above --- "fighting against those mandates" ---- results in frustration and irritation for me.

 

Examples:

  • pursuit of masculinity. For a population-segment often judged and stereotyped to idealize "masculinity" without recognizing that masculinity itself is just another stereotype makes me nuts. Is there anything more masculine than soft-spoken slender male wearing makeup walking the streets of a small southern town? Or someone transitioning FTM going for a job interview at the NFL?
  • I get frustrated by the nostalgia and clinging to old norms and behaviors - although I don't believe that's only a gay phenomenon. But older gays, who long for the days of the bathhouses, who resent the progress whereby neighborhood development means fewer places for public sex, to still adopt old ways of referring to other men with female pronouns "Ohhhhhh, her!" or "She". These are attitudes that will inhibit societal acceptance.... I think we've made progress into tolerance. Our parents come to terms with it, they adapt. Love wins out. But we're still not at a point where a mother isn't initially disappointed, or a father reacts to a son being gay the same way he'd react to a son having brown eyes.
  • Some intolerance for those still in the closet. I wouldn't counsel someone to come out. I try not to judge them. I wouldn't refuse friendly contact. And I would never intentionally "out" someone. But I've also made a pledge to myself that I can't be expend the energy to hide. To borrow a phrase from other life-situations "I may lie to you, but I won't lie FOR you." I feel no need to volunteer information, would try to say nothing. But I won't actively help someone be dishonest, be part of their "cover-story" to remain in the closet.

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All minority groups inner-discriminate: This is not exclusive to the gay community.

 

There's a lot of behavioral bullshit within our own that I don't condone for myself. It's likely why the majority of my friends are straight. While comfortable with myself as a gay man, I don't have a huge group of gay friends. I'm fine with that.

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I think we all are homophobic up to different degrees

 

With all due respect, please do not superimpose (your?) issues onto the rest of us. I assure you I am not homophobic in any way, having dealt with and resolved those issues many years ago thru hard work with a therapist. It is very possible to successfully address these painful internal issues. I should know because I have done it. Nevertheless, please don't think I am free from all other mental health issues. Strong mental health is a journey. I suspect I am not alone in this opinion.

 

Much love,

Josh

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@Lance_Navarro, thanks for bringing this topic up. It's always worth discussing our internal biases because raising awareness helps us unpack them and hopefully put them away for good. By the way, hemophobia is a fear of blood. I'm guessing whatever autocomplete/spellcheck used may have some internalized homophobia. ;)

 

We all have internalized bigotries. It's impossible to be human and not have some because of our lovely biology. The key is being aware of them so we can respond accordingly. I know I have some internalized homophobia that centers around stereotypical "fem" representation. I have a real thing for "masculine men." Exploring that interest and trying to understand why I feel that way and how it manifests has given me years of self-reflection.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply and for pointing out the typo, change made.

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You're welcome @Lance_Navarro.

 

@josh282282: Respectfully, when I read your reply, I felt it was defensive, especially since his comments weren't explicitly directed at you personally. In general, I agree with @latbear4blk. These kinds of things are a spectrum not an on-off switch. You may be much further along in tackling your internal biases--which speaks highly of you and your therapist--but everything I've read and experienced leads me to believe it's not possible to completely eliminate our internalized fears. All we can do is "turn down the volume" and reduce the "power" they have over us. By developing awareness, we can adjust our thinking and actions so that our fears don't impair us or negatively affect us and our relationships.

 

Anyway, it's hard to talk about this stuff. It makes me personally uncomfortable sometimes to process such heavy topics in only a textual exchange because it lacks the vast majority of cues our species use to communicate.

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It's hard not to have at least some residual homophobia if one is raised in a society that is homophobic, where everyone you love and respect feels at least some passive homophobia, and that was the society in which I grew up. It took me a long time not to be uncomfortable around homosexuals who were aggressively effeminate in public, i.e., "queens," drag or not, even though I enjoyed their company in private. I was lucky in my early 20s to be befriended by some strong gay civil rights advocates, who managed to educate me about my unconscious assumptions about the sickness/unnaturalness of homosexuality, which existed right alongside my enjoyment of being gay. Then there was the fact that I was sexually attracted to males who were--wait for it!!-----"straight-acting." There has to be some element of homophobia in that aspect of my psyche, but I don't think there is anything I can do about that. Knowing something rationally is not enough to change what one feels in one's gut, but it is still vitally important to acknowledge what one knows rationally. I am thankful that the culture in which I grew up has changed its attitude toward homosexuality, for now, but that change needs to be constantly nurtured, because it is human nature to form and propagate phobias against those who are perceived as aberrant.

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I wanted to discuss the topic of internalized hemophobia.

 

Well, I wouldn't say I'm hemoPHOBIC, but I don't like looking at it.

b93b7194ed5355fdd4eb9376019ffa82--carrie-movie-carrie-white.jpg

 

Hemophobia: An abnormal and persistent fear of blood. Sufferers of this very common phobia dread the sight of their own blood, the sight of the blood of another person or an animal, and sometimes printed or filmed images of blood or even thoughts of blood.

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With all due respect, please do not superimpose (your?) issues onto the rest of us. I assure you I am not homophobic in any way, having dealt with and resolved those issues many years ago thru hard work with a therapist. It is very possible to successfully address these painful internal issues. I should know because I have done it. Nevertheless, please don't think I am free from all other mental health issues. Strong mental health is a journey. I suspect I am not alone in this opinion.

 

Much love,

Josh

 

Dear Josh, I was not trying to imposed my issues to anyone else, just sharing my opinion. If you think you are homophobia free, I do not know you so I cannot contradict you. However, I would be thrilled to meet you, because you would be the first one I have ever met. You must be very special.

 

Let's make clear that I was paraphrasing @Lance_Navarro in his OP. I am sure he did not mean to pose his question on terms of black and white, homophobic or not al all. I think he is asking whether or not we have homophobic attitudes. I know I do. I know everyone I have met in my life, in the different cultures I have been fortunate to being exposed to, they all do. I am glad I am aware of it, because I am open to be called out and to keep working on it.

 

I think we are soaked by homophobia, so soggy with subconscious patterns, that it is really hard to realize it many times. I think, for instance, all the studies around finding the cause for homosexuality have homophobic roots, as I insinuated in another thread and was not very well taken. I think the whole direction taken by gay identity activism, trying to replicate the heterosexual model of exclusive monogamy, is a reflection of homophobia.

 

I know it is not the more popular opinion, but it is what I honestly think. I am not preaching from the purity pulpit, I recognize my homophobic (and of course racist, misogynystic, etc) attitudes and often I am ashamed of them. But I am proud of the progress I have made and of my willingness to accept it is a never ending task.

Edited by latbear4blk
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It's hard not to have at least some residual homophobia if one is raised in a society that is homophobic, where everyone you love and respect feels at least some passive homophobia, and that was the society in which I grew up. It took me a long time not to be uncomfortable around homosexuals who were aggressively effeminate in public, i.e., "queens," drag or not, even though I enjoyed their company in private. I was lucky in my early 20s to be befriended by some strong gay civil rights advocates, who managed to educate me about my unconscious assumptions about the sickness/unnaturalness of homosexuality, which existed right alongside my enjoyment of being gay. Then there was the fact that I was sexually attracted to males who were--wait for it!!-----"straight-acting." There has to be some element of homophobia in that aspect of my psyche, but I don't think there is anything I can do about that. Knowing something rationally is not enough to change what one feels in one's gut, but it is still vitally important to acknowledge what one knows rationally. I am thankful that the culture in which I grew up has changed its attitude toward homosexuality, for now, but that change needs to be constantly nurtured, because it is human nature to form and propagate phobias against those who are perceived as aberrant.

 

That is exactly the attitude I am talking about.

I am exclusively top. I do not enjoy any kind of playing in my ass. I do not even have fantasies about it. I experimented bottoming when I was in my 20s, because of my queer activism. However I quitted torturing myself and accepted that I should work other issues first if I ever want to enjoy my prostate and my ring. There is no physiological reason for my inability, it is clearly psychological and clearly related to a subconscious homophobic mandate. I am still open to someday being able to enjoy bottoming, but I am aware that has nothing to do with "finding the right one".

Edited by latbear4blk
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I assure you I am not homophobic in any way, having dealt with and resolved those issues many years ago thru hard work with a therapist.

Josh, I don’t know you, but neither do I believe you. And not for any reason other than the impossibility of such perfection. Humility, not grandiosity, is healthy. Ask your therapist, who sounds like s/he helped you a great deal.

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Dear Josh, I was not trying to imposed my issues to anyone else, just sharing my opinion. If you think you are homophobia free, I do not know you so I cannot contradict you. However, I would be thrilled to meet you, because you would be the first one I have ever met. You must be very special.

 

Let's make clear that I was paraphrasing @Lance_Navarro in his OP. I am sure he did not mean to pose his question on terms of black and white, homophobic or not al all. I think he is asking whether or not we have homophobic attitudes. I know I do. I know everyone I have met in my life, in the different cultures I have fortunate to being exposed to, they all do. I am glad I am aware of it, because I am open to be called out and to keep working on it.

 

I think we are soaked by homophobia, so soggy with subconscious patterns, that it is really hard to realize it many times. I think, for instance, all the studies around finding the cause for homosexuality have homophobic roots, as I insinuated in another thread and was not very well taken. I think the whole direction taken by gay identity activism, trying to replicate the heterosexual model of exclusive monogamy, is a reflection of homophobia.

 

I know it is not the more popular opinion, but it is what I honestly think. I am not preaching from the purity pulpit, I recognize my homophobic (and of course racist, misogynystic, etc) attitudes and often I am ashamed of them. But I am proud of the progress I have made and of my willingness to accept it is ever ending task.

 

So many great points! I feel that I have come a long way in life at abandoning irrational fears and not looking at things so dualistically, but like you said, we aren't perfect. Parts of our mammalian brain take over at times and we fall into stereotyping and drawing assumptions. I am far too humbled to say that I'm free of any racism, sexism, or internalized homophobia.

"Don't let perfect become the enemy of good"

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Somebody a lot smarter than I am has pointed out that Gays are the only despised minority raised entirely within the families of their oppressors.

 

Add to this that most gay boys don't quite figure out what's up until well after they've absorbed typical notions of masculinity (and faggotry) and it's likely that few of us escape w/o some internalized homophobia.

 

Myself,everytime I think I've finally gotten it rooted out, I find it creeping back into my reactions.

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You may be much further along in tackling your internal biases--which speaks highly of you and your therapist--but everything I've read and experienced leads me to believe it's not possible to completely eliminate our internalized fears.

 

@josh282282, I looked at all your posts very, very quickly. You have less than two hundred posts so many of us barely know you.

 

You did nothing wrong. Yet it's difficult to evaluate your comments with so little past history here.

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@josh282282, I looked at all your posts very, very quickly. You have less than two hundred posts so many of us barely know you.

 

You did nothing wrong. Yet it's difficult to evaluate your comments with so little past history here.

 

Absolutely! He didn't do anything wrong at all, but as I tried to say above--and clearly failed--something about the tone of the text suggested defensiveness coupled with something else. That's all I was trying to say. I am sorry if I've offended anyone.

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I think the whole direction taken by gay identity activism, trying to replicate the heterosexual model of exclusive monogamy, is a reflection of homophobia.

 

I agree with virtually everything you stated, but the wording here can be given added context.

 

I saw a documentary once made in the UK (can't remember the title) when one guy stated that he never cared about the gay marriage issue. He was fine with multiple partners. Yet he understood that it was important to have equal rights and, thus, have an option not granted before in his life time.

 

However monogamy is not a cut and dry thing. Yes, some of it is institutionalized: regardless of how nebulous many biblical passages are (a.k.a. men mentioned with multiple wives and multiple women for "recreation"), conservative religious heterosexuals make full time commitment to partnerships that don't allow others intimately other than the two involved, often "for the sake of the children" (which we all know is silly), into a big deal. However there are many people both gay and "straight" that want the comfort of a longtime partner. Call it a need for stability? Maybe a romantic notion of having a significant other who will complete one's self? Also the older you get, the lonelier you get. When not successful seeking that one night stand, you do want somebody to fall back on. Also sex is best when your partner knows you better on an intellectual and emotional level.

 

There are many, many of both "orientations" who are less interested in "getting to know you" than just a "blow and go", an instant "release". That is fine. To each their own. Yet not everybody wants to maintain their independence and keep a wall up forever.

 

A lot of homophobia, internalized or whatever, still stems from your outside environment's tolerance for anybody different than other members of your "pack". Many (but not all) of the most outspoken leaders of Gay Liberation in the 1970s were blessed by friends, if not families, who supported them being whatever they wanted to be. Many of the communities that begat these movements were in city centers like San Francisco and Greenwich Village, NYC. (Another great vintage documentary from 1970 involved an interview with two transgenders saying that, at least in the ghetto where they lived in San Francisco, they didn't have to worry about being shot. You can watch it here: https://archive.org/details/casftm_000001)

 

Having confidence because those around you have confidence in you being yourself makes a HUGE difference. Sadly I grew up with a family with intense hatred towards all gays and lesbians. My mother was the worst, but she is deceased and, while it is not good to dwell on those who no longer have control over you, the damage is already done and there are scars that will never heal.

 

I recently saw another movie... yeah, I am going to reference some OLD stuff here. It was a romantic gay drama called A VERY NATURAL THING, directed by Christopher Larkin and you can find a grainy copy on YouTube (possibly with adult verification since there are some brief nude scenes). What I found interesting about it is that the year it was filmed, 1973, was post-Stonewall with marches getting bigger in the streets and new confidence that never existed before, but also no AIDS epidemic yet either and Anita Bryant hadn't gotten started (not that many found her especially scary to begin with, provided there were enough pies to throw) and the main character teaches high school students in NYC. Director Larkin's goal was to create a gay version of LOVE STORY with men questioning: Do I want a long term partner or is this something that has been forced on me by "traditional hetero-normal society"?

 

The character of David was initially a monk, being Catholic and questioning his sexuality, then accepts who he is and no longer thinks God is "mad at me". He starts exploring what he enjoys physically. He has a good friend whom he isn't sexual with, but has great talks with in figuring out who he is. Then he finds a guy he hopes is Mister Right, but this guy clearly doesn't want "marriage". (There is a key scene of the two attending a heterosexual wedding in a church.) They try to stay together by being more "open" and attend a group orgy on Fire Island, but neither is comfortable with the situation. Many reading here would have no issues there, but you have to understand that this character was, after all, a celibate monk once and is still green behind the ears with the whole "comfort with strangers" routine. He is also awkward in his first trip to a bath house after his emotional break up. Later he becomes so cynical that a new guy he meets who wants the same thing he originally did (a long-term commitment) has to convince him to stop trying to find "the perfect" monogamous relationship and just accept things as they come. In short, David got too caught up in his mind over analyzing what he wanted.

 

I don't know. I guess there is no point to this elephantine post. Except we all want different things and I only HALF agree that monogamy is a reflection of homophobia. With that said, there is a pride parade shown in that movie where one guy says he is now happy he can have any partners he wants along with "as many as I want" without being judged.

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I agree with virtually everything you stated, but the wording here can be given added context.

 

I saw a documentary once made in the UK (can't remember the title) when one guy stated that he never cared about the gay marriage issue. He was fine with multiple partners. Yet he understood that it was important to have equal rights and, thus, have an option not granted before in his life time.

 

However monogamy is not a cut and dry thing. Yes, some of it is institutionalized: regardless of how nebulous many biblical passages are (a.k.a. men mentioned with multiple wives and multiple women for "recreation"), conservative religious heterosexuals make full time commitment to partnerships that don't allow others intimately other than the two involved, often "for the sake of the children" (which we all know is silly), into a big deal. However there are many people both gay and "straight" that want the comfort of a longtime partner. Call it a need for stability? Maybe a romantic notion of having a significant other who will complete one's self? Also the older you get, the lonelier you get. When not successful seeking that one night stand, you do want somebody to fall back on. Also sex is best when your partner knows you better on an intellectual and emotional level.

 

There are many, many of both "orientations" who are less interested in "getting to know you" than just a "blow and go", an instant "release". That is fine. To each their own. Yet not everybody wants to maintain their independence and keep a wall up forever.

 

A lot of homophobia, internalized or whatever, still stems from your outside environment's tolerance for anybody different than other members of your "pack". Many (but not all) of the most outspoken leaders of Gay Liberation in the 1970s were blessed by friends, if not families, who supported them being whatever they wanted to be. Many of the communities that begat these movements were in city centers like San Francisco and Greenwich Village, NYC. (Another great vintage documentary from 1970 involved an interview with two transgenders saying that, at least in the ghetto where they lived in San Francisco, they didn't have to worry about being shot. You can watch it here: https://archive.org/details/casftm_000001)

 

Having confidence because those around you have confidence in you being yourself makes a HUGE difference. Sadly I grew up with a family with intense hatred towards all gays and lesbians. My mother was the worst, but she is deceased and, while it is not good to dwell on those who no longer have control over you, the damage is already done and there are scars that will never heal.

 

I recently saw another movie... yeah, I am going to reference some OLD stuff here. It was a romantic gay drama called A VERY NATURAL THING, directed by Christopher Larkin and you can find a grainy copy on YouTube (possibly with adult verification since there are some brief nude scenes). What I found interesting about it is that the year it was filmed, 1973, was post-Stonewall with marches getting bigger in the streets and new confidence that never existed before, but also no AIDS epidemic yet either and Anita Bryant hadn't gotten started (not that many found her especially scary to begin with, provided there were enough pies to throw) and the main character teaches high school students in NYC. Director Larkin's goal was to create a gay version of LOVE STORY with men questioning: Do I want a long term partner or is this something that has been forced on me by "traditional hetero-normal society"?

 

The character of David was initially a monk, being Catholic and questioning his sexuality, then accepts who he is and no longer thinks God is "mad at me". He starts exploring what he enjoys physically. He has a good friend whom he isn't sexual with, but has great talks with in figuring out who he is. Then he finds a guy he hopes is Mister Right, but this guy clearly doesn't want "marriage". (There is a key scene of the two attending a heterosexual wedding in a church.) They try to stay together by being more "open" and attend a group orgy on Fire Island, but neither is comfortable with the situation. Many reading here would have no issues there, but you have to understand that this character was, after all, a celibate monk once and is still green behind the ears with the whole "comfort with strangers" routine. He is also awkward in his first trip to a bath house after his emotional break up. Later he becomes so cynical that a new guy he meets who wants the same thing he originally did (a long-term commitment) has to convince him to stop trying to find "the perfect" monogamous relationship and just accept things as they come. In short, David got too caught up in his mind over analyzing what he wanted.

 

I don't know. I guess there is no point to this elephantine post. Except we all want different things and I only HALF agree that monogamy is a reflection of homophobia. With that said, there is a pride parade shown in that movie where one guy says he is now happy he can have any partners he wants along with "as many as I want" without being judged.

 

You're discussion of monogamy brought up something that happened recently. I was back in VA visiting my family. My parents have been divorced since I was 5, my mom and older sister live just outside Richmond, while my dad still lives in the Appalachian Mountains, where I grew up, and he's very conservative, where as the rest of us are quite liberal. I was at the dinner table talking about how Steve (my partner for 7 years) and I have been discussing getting married in the next few years. My dad said he was surprised. I asked him why and he said that he didn't think that we were committed to each other, in the sense of monogamy (I had mentioned before that we have an open relationship). I explained that for us emotional commitment is what a relationship is about, we are deeply committed to one another but that doesn't mean that we control what one another can do with their bodies.

Edited by Lance_Navarro
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All minority groups inner-discriminate: This is not exclusive to the gay community.

 

There's a lot of behavioral bullshit within our own that I don't condone for myself. It's likely why the majority of my friends are straight. While comfortable with myself as a gay man, I don't have a huge group of gay friends. I'm fine with that.

 

I have a confession to make. I love straight guys. Not to have sex with or chase after. Not neanderthal, homophobic redneck straight guys, but sensitive, aware 21st-century straight guys to have as friends. One of the ways in which internalized homophobia manifested for me is that, in the presence of straight guys, I always felt less than, not truly a man. And I was so used to feeling this way, that I wasn't even aware of it. When I became aware of it I was dumbfounded and I challenged myself to step out and claim my masculinity. One of the benefits of having done this is that I have realized that I'm as much a man as any straight guy, and I'm just as entitled to a place at the table, just as entitled to my slice of the pie. I can have relationships of all sorts with straight guys without always checking to see if I measure up or trying to conceal frailties or weaknesses and I generally like being around them.

 

It's a curious turn my life has taken in the last few years, and I'm not always comfortable with it. I wonder if I haven't gone a bit too far, but I like it. I did form a close friendship with gay man just this year. I hired him to coach me when I was prepping for a competition, and we worked together several times a week for several months. The relationship became very close and intimate and I'm delighted to have him in my life.

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