Penn State frat members face manslaughter charges in hazing case

[+ FreshFluff]

NPR article about the case, which includes the grand jury report

 

These are texts between the "brothers," some of which had been deleted.

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/news/crime_courts/article_1c1e6914-350c-11e7-b3b1-436b96fe269f.html

 

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/collegian.psu.edu/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/e/ec/eecfd394-3506-11e7-98be-93684cd17003/591242df9c432.image.png?resize=1200%2C590

[maninsoma]

I haven't followed the reporting of this case that closely, but earlier this week one of the frat brothers or pledges was trying to portray himself as some sort of hero because he was apparently the lone voice of reason that they needed to call 911. That didn't impress me. What he should have done is not just tell others that that was the right thing to do and then NOT do it because of peer pressure. He should have actually made the call because he knew it was the only moral way to respond to the situation at hand. Sure, it probably makes him slightly less culpable than the others involved, but only slightly.

[+ nycman]

These situations are horrible, for everyone involved.

 

Unfortunately, it's been going on for as long as I can remember.

 

It's easy to blame the brothers....but there are so many other

factors involved. At the end of the day, they're just a bunch of

immature morons in their early 20's.

 

I wish I could take the moral highroad and say I was different,

but I wasn't....I was just a whole hell of a lot luckier.

[+ purplekow]

These situations are horrible, for everyone involved.

 

Unfortunately, it's been going on for as long as I can remember.

 

It's easy to blame the brothers....but there are so many other

factors involved. At the end of the day, they're just a bunch of

immature morons in their early 20's.

 

I wish I could take the moral highroad and say I was different,

but I wasn't....I was just a whole hell of a lot luckier.

Stupidity is no defense. I know the saying ignorance of the law is not defense but in this case, stupid stupid stupid.

[+ WilliamM]

Stupidity is no defense. I know the saying ignorance of the law is not defense but in this case, stupid stupid stupid.

 

I lived close to a Penn State frat house in State College, PA many years ago.

 

The pledges were treated very badly then, and apparently nothing has changed.

[Bearofdistinction]

I lived close to a Penn State frat house in State College, PA many years ago.

 

The pledges were treated very badly then, and apparently nothing has changed.

 

What a horrifying waste of life = What kind of creatures is our society raising

 

that so many could stand by and do nothing for so long - and watch someone die . . .

 

-- A Star Athlete and Top Student a Beautiful young man whose engineering talent might have

 

provided multiple advances to the cause of humanity. I have not been able to confirm but have

 

been told by sources in Jersey that the family is related to retired Pro Athlete Mike Piazza but

 

they did not want to advertise the connection to keep the focus on their son.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/05/us/penn-state-fraternity-death-timothy-piazza.html?_r=0

[+ quoththeraven]

Stupidity is no defense. I know the saying ignorance of the law is not defense but in this case, stupid stupid stupid.

Yes, but there are equally horrifying events taking place in fraternities and on campus involving alcohol abuse and exploitation where the narrative is entirely the opposite. Those who experience criminal actions at the hands of fraternity members or fellow students are dismissed, made fun of, and blamed, and if anyone is convicted (which is much less likely) at sentencing the media will weep over the waste of a young life a stiff sentence represents.

 

Moreover, on forums like this, someone is sure to mention innocent until proven guilty. That's just as true here but no one's said it or is likely to say it. The allegations are accepted as true.

[+ purplekow]

Innocent until proven Guilty is legal thinking. These people have yet to be on trial, but that does not mean there isn't sufficient evidence out there to convict them in the court of public opinion. That court has a lower threshold for assigning guilt. Ask OJ.

[+ sniper]

I really think the drinking age should just be 18 or 19 so they aren't incentivized to NOT call 911 when they need to.

[Larstrup]

Yes, but there are equally horrifying events taking place in fraternities and on campus involving alcohol abuse and exploitation where the narrative is entirely the opposite. Those who experience criminal actions at the hands of fraternity members or fellow students are dismissed, made fun of, and blamed, and if anyone is convicted (which is much less likely) at sentencing the media will weep over the waste of a young life a stiff sentence represents.

 

Moreover, on forums like this, someone is sure to mention innocent until proven guilty. That's just as true here but no one's said it or is likely to say it. The allegations are accepted as true.

 

While not passing judgement about this Penn State scandal - it's notable to recall the Duke University Lacrosse Team Rape scandal where in the end all charges were dropped, but lives and reputations were still tarnished.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/12/the-stripper-who-cried-rape-revisiting-the-duke-lacrosse-case-ten-years-later

[+ purplekow]

While

While not passing judgement about this Penn State scandal - it's notable to recall the Duke University Lacrosse Team Rape scandal where in the end all charges were dropped, but lives and reputations were still tarnished.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/12/the-stripper-who-cried-rape-revisiting-the-duke-lacrosse-case-ten-years-later

Duke LaCrosse was a he said she said case, this is a situation which he texted and he texted and he texted and he sent a photo and he looked up what to do when someone is not breathing. And of course the victim in this case, is not saying anything.

[+ quoththeraven]

I really think the drinking age should just be 18 or 19 so they aren't incentivized to NOT call 911 when they need to.

There were other reasons not to call like the violation of campus policy regarding fraternities.

[+ quoththeraven]

While

 

Duke LaCrosse was a he said she said case, this is a situation which he texted and he texted and he texted and he sent a photo and he looked up what to do when someone is not breathing. And of course the victim in this case, is not saying anything.

Some rape cases are like this one. Steubenville was. The perpetrators had exchanged text and other messages. As I understand it, because no one was dead and there was no incontrovertible evidence, the police didn't have probable cause to access them; they were ultimately revealed through hacking. Then one of the participants turned state's witness. The combination of his testimony and video of the assault are what led to a conviction.

[Larstrup]

While

 

Duke LaCrosse was a he said she said case, this is a situation which he texted and he texted and he texted and he sent a photo and he looked up what to do when someone is not breathing. And of course the victim in this case, is not saying anything.

 

I don't disagree. There's still room for a lot of investigation to identify all those guilty or otherwise not.

 

EDIT: I wasn't current in my knowledge of the further unfolding of this story. I did not read the OP article since I had read others prior to it but obviously not as current as this one.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Larstrup

[TruthBTold]

Perhaps I am the only one but I am not sure what the purpose of fraternities/sororities are. It seems in a way that it is just an extension of high school cliques and the ability of some to exclude others. And, it appears, there is seldom anyone on site that could monitor what goes on and that the members act maturely and without hazard to others. I really do believe students should be housed in dormitories or if they want to be housed outside the school system then they have to go through a landlord. Some things should just pass on.

[kewtex]

The more I think about this incident, the angrier I get. May these "brothers" who did nothing while a young man lay dying be held accountable for their (in)actions, and receive the maximum sentences allowed by Pennsylvania law.

[+ FreshFluff]

These situations are horrible, for everyone involved.

 

Unfortunately, it's been going on for as long as I can remember.

 

It's easy to blame the brothers....but there are so many other

factors involved. At the end of the day, they're just a bunch of

immature morons in their early 20's.

 

I wish I could take the moral highroad and say I was different,

but I wasn't....I was just a whole hell of a lot luckier.

 

Hazing is inevitable wherever groups of testosterone-charged young men gather. Everyone I know who has worked in the finance industry been hazed in some way. Hazing with alcohol makes it much more risky.

 

As for fraternities, the macho factor among that group has increased due to social media.

[+ FreshFluff]

Perhaps I am the only one but I am not sure what the purpose of fraternities/sororities are. It seems in a way that it is just an extension of high school cliques and the ability of some to exclude others.

 

Most people feel like they belong only if they exclude others. That's human nature, unfortunately.

[+ quoththeraven]

Most people feel like they belong only if they exclude others. That's human nature, unfortunately.

That seems like something that shouldn't be encouraged, which suggests that colleges should not support fraternities (no advertising on campus, no access to student information, etc.)

[+ FreshFluff]

That seems like something that shouldn't be encouraged, which suggests that colleges should not support fraternities (no advertising on campus, no access to student information, etc.)

 

If the goal is to discourage exclusion, those measures won't help. The most exclusive organizations are the least interested in advertising. They recruit through word of mouth, usually limited to alumni of certain high schools and certain athletic teams.

 

In any case, banning advertising on campus to won't make much of an impact in the age of social media. Neither will limiting access to directories that are available to all students, if that's possible at all.

[TruthBTold]

That is why I think that universities should prohibit any association in any way with any type of "fraternity" and that a college be allowed to expel or discipline a student if it finds out the student is living somewhere that is considered a fraternity. While I agree hazing will go on at all times and everywhere, a university does not have to enable it.

[+ FreshFluff]

That is why I think that universities should prohibit any association in any way with any type of "fraternity" and that a college be allowed to expel or discipline a student if it finds out the student is living somewhere that is considered a fraternity. While I agree hazing will go on at all times and everywhere, a university does not have to enable it.

 

From a legal perspective, it's very difficult to prohibit free association in this way, especially if the school allows students to live off camps. Let's say ten guys want to live together and call their house "Roger." Every year, as seniors leave, they interview new freshmen to take their places. What are you, as a university administrator, going to do about it?

 

From a practical perspective, it's usually a bad idea. At many schools, fraternity alumni are the big donors, both because they tend to be gregarious and successful and because these guys usually have warm feelings about their college experience. Banning them would mean that many future donors would go elsewhere and the ones that go anyway wouldn't feel the same bond to the school. Even small liberal arts colleges that tried to ban Greek orgs eventually relent.

[JayCeeKy]

Research shows that people are less likely to offer help to someone in distress if other people are also present. This is called the bystander effect. The probability that a person will receive help decreases as the number of people present increases. If your car breaks down you are much more likely to get help from passersby if it's 3:00 a.m. than rush hour. The bystander-effect is sadly illustrated by this event. These frat boys are probably not horrible dudes - just terribly immature like most of us at that age. The pre-frontal cortex (responsible for "good judgement") is not fully functional in males until around age 25. Very, very sad situation for everybody.

[+ nycman]

From a legal perspective, it's very difficult to prohibit free association in this way

 

She's right. It's better to keep it on campus and try to regulate it as best you can.

It's far from perfect...but the alternative is having the frat system totally out of the University's control.

That would be complete and utter chaos and many more young men would die every year than do today.

 

If they did somehow magically manage to banish all free association by the students (good luck)....

...the students would vote with their wallets and go to a school with fraternities instead of one without....sad but true.

 

The pre-frontal cortex (responsible for "good judgement") is not fully functional in males until around age 25

 

Now multiply that effect 100x when they're drunk and/or high....which of course they are...they're college students in a fraternity....it's a "no brainer".....literally!

[+ azdr0710]

The pre-frontal cortex (responsible for "good judgement") is not fully functional in males until around age 25.

 

possible defense tactic in the upcoming trial??!!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkie_defense