Ferguson

[armadillo]

War / race, race war? WTF is going in Fergie?

 

I tune into TV (lightly), one night there are riots, then the next peace with a MO Highway Patrol Captain. Then tonite there is a curfew after more looting?

 

Help me.

 

(I also saw the press conference with Ferguson Police Chief where officers name was announced. Sheriff Andy Taylor & Barney Fife could have done better)

[Guest Spanker01]

As a resident of St. Louis, it is my opinion that this place is a racial tinderbox, and has been so for years, waiting to explode. I think the only thing that saved for the explosion was the weather. Cool, for August, and wet. An incident on a hot humid night, look out.

 

Spanker

[bigvalboy]

I'm confused as well armadillo. There are too many problems in Ferguson, and too many opinions to formulate a clear understanding of what happened at the moment the match was lit. Yes it's a racial tinderbox, and many of the problems are decades old, but it is a nation wide problem as well. I don't think one can properly analyze the situation without considering the city's history. In the end, sadly a young man is dead, and if we learned nothing from the Trayvon Martin case, we should have learned to reserve opinion until there is a trial, and all the evidence comes in. There will be plenty of blame to go around, lots of finger pointing, and in the end, I rather suspect that the those officials who were most responsible, failed the citizens of Ferguson on a multitude of levels. I don't think there is one clear answer here.

 

For now, my prayers go out to the young mans family that lost their son, regardless of what he did at the convenience store, and prayers to the officer who went to work one day, and something went horribly wrong, and his life will forever be changed.

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-shooting-whats-known-now-michael-brown-123335396.html

 

And yes, by posting this I realize it is an opinion of sorts, but they are far from definitive.

Edited August 17, 2014 by bigvalboy

[+ purplekow]

I watched that Rachel Maddow piece and I found her report to be inflammatory and with the kind of lack insight that I usually reserve to reports from Fox news.

If you did the same analysis as she used and based it on age or sex or economic status, it would lead to even wider and persistent discrepency from expected value. Citing race, in this case is easy and incomplete. While I have no doubt that in this town, and more widely in the US, racial profiling by police exists, her data was weak and her analysis superficial.

[bigvalboy]

I watched that Rachel Maddow piece and I found her report to be inflammatory and with the kind of lack insight that I usually reserve to reports from Fox news.

If you did the same analysis as she used and based it on age or sex or economic status, it would lead to even wider and persistent discrepency from expected value. Citing race, in this case is easy and incomplete. While I have no doubt that in this town, and more widely in the US, racial profiling by police exists, her data was weak and her analysis superficial.

 

Agreed, and also premature, since we have not heard from officer Wilson, however if you are also willing to admit that racial profiling exists, then should not that be part of the discussion also? Given what we do know of the problems in Ferguson, from the mouths of those that actually live there, It would be naive and irresponsible in my opinion, not to at least have a conversation about it. As in Trayvon Martin's case, it was not something that people were comfortable talking about, but necessary nonetheless. At least RM is having that conversation.

[+ deej]

This shooting is being bungled in every way it's remotely possible to bungle.

 

Several days after the shooting, the kid who was WITH the victim at the time of the shooting STILL had not spoken with police. He was clearly available. The networks all found him. It's not like he was on the lam or something. DAYS after a shooting and they still hadn't spoken with the ONLY witness other than the cop/shooter? Blatant incompetence, and there's nothing else about the story that gives me any more faith in local authorities.

[rvwnsd]

...Blatant incompetence, and there's nothing else about the story that gives me any more faith in local authorities.

 

Combine blatant incompetence with military weaponry and equipment and you get the events that have occurred in Ferguson, MO. An LA Times article stated that surplus military equipment like that which was used in Ferguson was passed up by the major metropolitan police forces (e.g. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles) and typically went to small and medium sized forces.

[bigvalboy]

Well progress is being made...finally!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-gov-jay-nixon-arrests-violence-132434916.html

[Guest]

I'm confused as well armadillo. There are too many problems in Ferguson, and too many opinions to formulate a clear understanding of what happened at the moment the match was lit. Yes it's a racial tinderbox, and many of the problems are decades old, but it is a nation wide problem as well. I don't think one can properly analyze the situation without considering the city's history. In the end, sadly a young man is dead, and if we learned nothing from the Trayvon Martin case, we should have learned to reserve opinion until there is a trial, and all the evidence comes in. There will be plenty of blame to go around, lots of finger pointing, and in the end, I rather suspect that the those officials who were most responsible, failed the citizens of Ferguson on a multitude of levels. I don't think there is one clear answer here.

 

For now, my prayers go out to the young mans family that lost their son, regardless of what he did at the convenience store, and prayers to the officer who went to work one day, and something went horribly wrong, and his life will forever be changed.

 

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-shooting-whats-known-now-michael-brown-123335396.html

 

And yes, by posting this I realize it is an opinion of sorts, but they are far from definitive.

 

First of all, I have to say that I'm not taking sides on this issue. The facts need to come out (even then, I doubt we'll really ever be able to get the whole truth, since this event was not videotaped). However, I would say it's a bit silly to claim that blacks are being discriminated against just because more are getting pulled over for speeding more often, unless you have side-by-side data as to what percentage of each race engages in speeding. When I've been pulled over for speeding, it's always been from behind, and I doubt that the cop has any idea what my race is until I pull over and he comes to the driver's window. Well, one time he was in front of me, but that was because the actual arresting officer was in an aircraft over Interstate-5 from LA to San Francisco, and I'm willing to bet both my nuts that the officer in the aircraft had no idea what my race was. It's also unbelievably unimpressive that an 18 year-old has "no adult criminal record." What is the percentage of 18 year-olds in this country who actually have adult criminal records? Of course, this does not mean it's OK to use lethal force on a robbery suspect who's running away from you. But there's no reason to pull up meaningless facts to come to the conclusion that one shouldn't shoot dead an unarmed fleeing person, if that's in fact what happened. What seems somewhat more troublesome, in my mind, was when the local police used tear gas and rubber bullets in attempts to disperse peaceful protesters (again, if that's in fact what happened).

[marylander1940]

First of all, I have to say that I'm not taking sides on this issue. The facts need to come out (even then, I doubt we'll really ever be able to get the whole truth, since this event was not videotaped). However, I would say it's a bit silly to claim that blacks are being discriminated against just because more are getting pulled over for speeding more often, unless you have side-by-side data as to what percentage of each race engages in speeding. When I've been pulled over for speeding, it's always been from behind, and I doubt that the cop has any idea what my race is until I pull over and he comes to the driver's window. Well, one time he was in front of me, but that was because the actual arresting officer was in an aircraft over Interstate-5 from LA to San Francisco, and I'm willing to bet both my nuts that the officer in the aircraft had no idea what my race was. It's also unbelievably unimpressive that an 18 year-old has "no adult criminal record." What is the percentage of 18 year-olds in this country who actually have adult criminal records? Of course, this does not mean it's OK to use lethal force on a robbery suspect who's running away from you. But there's no reason to pull up meaningless facts to come to the conclusion that one shouldn't shoot dead an unarmed fleeing person, if that's in fact what happened. What seems somewhat more troublesome, in my mind, was when the local police used tear gas and rubber bullets in attempts to disperse peaceful protesters (again, if that's in fact what happened).

 

They get pulled over but unlike most of us they get fully search more often, and even though they do drugs as much as other ethnic groups they get caught and send to jail in a massive number.

 

All this Libertarian movement for the legalization of drug consumption happens to appear now that Appalachian and Southern Whites have become massive consumers and producers of crystal meth and other drugs produced in the states.

 

Let's remember that most of us (at least as old as me) grew up with stereotypes about a connection between skin color and behavior showed in the following video.

 

[video=youtube;sls5H4xVHys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sls5H4xVHys&list=FLagr2KUJb9LOhykDC5xxtyg&index=36

[+ deej]

First of all, I have to say that I'm not taking sides on this issue. The facts need to come out (even then, I doubt we'll really ever be able to get the whole truth, since this event was not videotaped). However, I would say it's a bit silly to claim that blacks are being discriminated against just because more are getting pulled over for speeding more often, unless you have side-by-side data as to what percentage of each race engages in speeding. When I've been pulled over for speeding, it's always been from behind, and I doubt that the cop has any idea what my race is until I pull over and he comes to the driver's window. Well, one time he was in front of me, but that was because the actual arresting officer was in an aircraft over Interstate-5 from LA to San Francisco, and I'm willing to bet both my nuts that the officer in the aircraft had no idea what my race was. It's also unbelievably unimpressive that an 18 year-old has "no adult criminal record." What is the percentage of 18 year-olds in this country who actually have adult criminal records? Of course, this does not mean it's OK to use lethal force on a robbery suspect who's running away from you. But there's no reason to pull up meaningless facts to come to the conclusion that one shouldn't shoot dead an unarmed fleeing person, if that's in fact what happened. What seems somewhat more troublesome, in my mind, was when the local police used tear gas and rubber bullets in attempts to disperse peaceful protesters (again, if that's in fact what happened).

 

Much of this is what they call justification. You refuse to see it because nobody has presented statistics that you like.

 

We won't know for sure how this will play out in the courts, for sure, until it actually does that. But I've seen 'testimony' from at least three witnesses saying an unarmed teenager with his hands in the air in the international signal of surrender and saying "don't shoot!" was shot and killed. That is first degree murder. From local officials I've seen nothing but deflection and noise about things unrelated to an unarmed teenager shot and killed in broad daylight.

 

The noise machine is going to run on for a while. People will yammer on about statistics and what have you.

 

Meanwhile, an unarmed teenager was executed for the crime of walking down the street.

 

Emotions are running high and justifiably so. Dismiss to your own detriment.

[bigvalboy]

Much of this is what they call justification. You refuse to see it because nobody has presented statistics that you like.

We won't know for sure how this will play out in the courts, for sure, until it actually does that. But I've seen 'testimony' from at least three witnesses saying an unarmed teenager with his hands in the air in the international signal of surrender and saying "don't shoot!" was shot and killed. That is first degree murder. From local officials I've seen nothing but deflection and noise about things unrelated to an unarmed teenager shot and killed in broad daylight.

 

The noise machine is going to run on for a while. People will yammer on about statistics and what have you.

 

Meanwhile, an unarmed teenager was executed for the crime of walking down the street.

 

Emotions are running high and justifiably so. Dismiss to your own detriment.

 

Deej is correct here. It seems to me Unicorn that you have already taken sides. Ignoring, dismissing national data does not mean that data is not valid, nor meaningful, and from where I sit, using yourself as an example is terribly naive. Can you remember the last time a police officer stopped you for jaywalking?

 

Long before any trial begins, they will attempt to crucify Michael Brown's character, just as they did Trayvon Martin's. I'm not excusing what Michael Brown did, but let's remember, he was not stopped for the crime that he committed earlier. The officer knew nothing of the altercation at the convenience store.

[+ deej]

I'm not excusing what Michael Brown did, but let's remember, he was not stopped for the crime that he committed earlier in the day.

 

And it is not established that he DID commit a crime earlier in the day.

 

Even the state's governor has admitted that the video was released solely to besmirch the dead kid's reputation. We don't actually know it was him.

 

And, come on, even if the kid did shoplift Swisher Sweets, we don't GUN DOWN suspected shoplifters!

[+ purplekow]

Much of this is what they call justification. You refuse to see it because nobody has presented statistics that you like.

 

We won't know for sure how this will play out in the courts, for sure, until it actually does that. But I've seen 'testimony' from at least three witnesses saying an unarmed teenager with his hands in the air in the international signal of surrender and saying "don't shoot!" was shot and killed. That is first degree murder. From local officials I've seen nothing but deflection and noise about things unrelated to an unarmed teenager shot and killed in broad daylight.

 

The noise machine is going to run on for a while. People will yammer on about statistics and what have you.

 

Meanwhile, an unarmed teenager was executed for the crime of walking down the street.

 

Emotions are running high and justifiably so. Dismiss to your own detriment.

 

If this were just a teenager being shot down, this would be a horror and an abomination. What has made it news is his race. Plain in simple, this is a race issue with a side issue of the teenager possibly being murdered by the police. I note that in your statement, race was not mentioned. i doubt you will find a singel news report in which that is true.

 

Race unfortunately is still a hot button issue in this country. Today, while driving down a four land highway (two in each direction) top down radio on, I made an abrupt stop when the car in front of me did the same. The car in back of me blared his horn and when I looked in the rearview mirror, I saw him approaching quickly and he did not appear to be slowing. In an attempt to avoid being hit, I started to move into the left hand lane, only to wind up cutting off the car as he tried to swoop pass. As I pulled back to the right lane, the woman in the passenger seat screamed at me to "get out of the fucking way you white bastard". I hadn't heard that much venom directed at me in one word in a long time." I have no idea of the race of the person driving, though the passenger was a young black woman. Since I grew up and learned to drive in NYC, I responded, "Drop dead you cunt" and we both drove off. The driver then tried unsuccessfully to cut me off and then managed to speed off. This was in middle class America on a beautiful cool summer day. Racial tensions seethe in this country, often right below the surface and it does not take much to get them spewing.

[Steven_Draker]

[+ deej]

If this were just a teenager being shot down, this would be a horror and an abomination. What has made it news is his race. Plain in simple, this is a race issue with a side issue of the teenager possibly being murdered by the police. I note that in your statement, race was not mentioned. i doubt you will find a singel news report in which that is true.

 

So it would be OK if it was a white kid (like me)?

[+ purplekow]

Agreed, and also premature, since we have not heard from officer Wilson, however if you are also willing to admit that racial profiling exists, then should not that be part of the discussion also? Given what we do know of the problems in Ferguson, from the mouths of those that actually live there, It would be naive and irresponsible in my opinion, not to at least have a conversation about it. As in Trayvon Martin's case, it was not something that people were comfortable talking about, but necessary nonetheless. At least RM is having that conversation.

i have no problem having a meaningful discussion about race and racial profiling. I believe the media owes us that, a meaningful conversation with meaningful statistics or at least a multifactoral evaluation. I just was commenting that Ms. Maddow owes us more than poorly analyzed statistics which do not necessarily bring anything but confusion to the table.

[bigvalboy]

i have no problem having a meaningful discussion about race and racial profiling. I believe the media owes us that, a meaningful conversation with meaningful statistics or at least a multifactoral evaluation. I just was commenting that Ms. Maddow owes us more than poorly analyzed statistics which do not necessarily bring anything but confusion to the table.

 

I'm curious why you think her statistics were poorly analyzed. I'm a fan, but that does not mean I could find her without fault.

[Guest]

Much of this is what they call justification. You refuse to see it because nobody has presented statistics that you like.

 

We won't know for sure how this will play out in the courts, for sure, until it actually does that. But I've seen 'testimony' from at least three witnesses saying an unarmed teenager with his hands in the air in the international signal of surrender and saying "don't shoot!" was shot and killed. That is first degree murder. From local officials I've seen nothing but deflection and noise about things unrelated to an unarmed teenager shot and killed in broad daylight.

 

 

If in fact the officer shot dead a fleeing man with his hands in the air, then I would be the first to agree that the officer should probably spend a good number of years in jail, and that there should be civil penalties as well. It would be hard to prove first degree murder:

First-degree murder is any intentional murder that is willful and premeditated with malice aforethought. Felony murder is typically first-degree.

Second-degree murder is an intentional murder with malice aforethought, but is not premeditated or planned in advance.

Voluntary manslaughter (also referred to as third-degree murder), sometimes called a "Heat of Passion" murder, is any intentional killing that involved no prior intent to kill, and which was committed under such circumstances that would "cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed". Both this and second-degree murder are committed on the spot, but the two differ in the magnitude of the circumstances surrounding the crime. For example, a bar fight that results in death would ordinarily constitute second-degree murder. If that same bar fight stemmed from a discovery of infidelity, however, it may be mitigated to voluntary manslaughter.

 

I seriously doubt it's even true, let alone provable beyond reasonable doubt, that the officer planned all of this in advance. I have heard witness say that the victim was smacking the officer around through the patrol car door window. That's certainly no excuse to kill someone, but, if true, might cause a jury to downgrade the crime from 2nd degree to manslaughter.

[+ deej]

I have heard witness say that the victim was smacking the officer around through the patrol car door window. That's certainly no excuse to kill someone, but, if true, might cause a jury to downgrade the crime from 2nd degree to manslaughter.

 

So the shooting is justified because the officer didn't know how to roll up his car window? (Which was probably already rolled up because it's MISSOURI in the summer. They're in A/C 24/7.)

[BSR]

There are no members of the Cult of Victimhood more ardent than the Gay Left. I don't understand why gay men feel so enormously oppressed. We are the wealthiest demographic group in America. The Legend of St. Matthew, Gay Martyr, is 100% bullshit. I'm not talking about some poor teenager in Alabama whose parents have thrown him out of the house because he's gay. I'm talking about by & large, generally speaking, the most UN-oppressed demographic group in the country with an Orwellian obsession over their alleged oppression. But nobody, but NOBODY, does indulgent self-pity better than the Gay Left.

 

Before all the professional victims on this board get too hysterical (which, I realize, is like asking the sun to stop rising in the east), let's wait for all the facts to come out. Then again, facts hardly matter to the Cult of Victimhood. The fact that Matthew Shepard was a meth dealer who was murdered because a violent meth addict tried to steal a large supply of meth Shepard had recently scored is not just irrelevant to the professional victims of the gay left (pardon the redundancy), it is a gay-hate lie. Yet gay author Stephen Jiminez painstakingly substantiates his take of Shepard's death whereas the gay-martyr version was all smoke & mirrors. But the gay martyr myth has been so gosh darn useful to the Gay Left. Hate-crime legislation that had been moribund or faltering breezed through passage thanks to the death of meth dealer Matthew. And in the battle over gay marriage, gays screamed "MURDERER!!!" to shut down traditional-marriage supporters.

 

What I'm arguing is all for naught, however, because for professional victims, their self-pity is the most powerful drug known to man. It makes professional victims feel soooooooo good, soooooooo special. One day, scientists will prove the altered brain chemistry, the rush of endorphins, that professional victims experience when indulging in their delusions of oppression. But what good would that do? Professional victims need facts like a fish needs a bicycle.

[+ purplekow]

So it would be OK if it was a white kid (like me)?

Exactly my point. No it would not be okay, it just would not be news on a national level with all sorts of nationally covered prostest.

[+ purplekow]

I'm curious why you think her statistics were poorly analyzed. I'm a fan, but that does not mean I could find her without fault.

 

Basically her statistics take race, and say: well you have 67% (my numbers may be off as I did not go back to get them exact) of the population which is black and 87% of the police activity involves blacks and for whites the opposite is true. Now if the black and white populations were exact in every other instance these statistics may be true and significant but at the best these numbers may be true and they are possibly significant. IF the white population is 50% elderly people in a nursing home environment and the rest are summertime residents who live in this town for the summer and the black population is made up of young full time residents who are unemployed heroin addicts, THEN the statistics would be surprising in the other direction. One does not expect crime and police interaction with elderly and part time residents are not around as much. Drugs addicts and underemployed people commit crime so if you have a high crime risk population and low crime risk population as dramatic as my ludacris example, then the results cited by Ms Maddow would not be an indictment of the police. As she did not state that her statistics were corrected for age, economic status and other factors which influence crime, her presentation of the statistics is imcomplete and presented in a way that makes their use in her presentation subject to the charges I made. I did not say they were incorrect, but a poor argument used in a way to isolate race, when the issue is not solely a racial issue and those other factors may play an important role in the results she is using.

[+ FreshFluff]

Combine blatant incompetence with military weaponry and equipment and you get the events that have occurred in Ferguson, MO. An LA Times article stated that surplus military equipment like that which was used in Ferguson was passed up by the major metropolitan police forces (e.g. New York, Chicago, Los Angeles) and typically went to small and medium sized forces.

 

The big cities passed it up because they don't use military type equipment or because the equipment they passed up wasn't up to their standards?

[bostonman]

Breaking news - an independent autopsy (requested by the family) by Michael Baden shows that Brown was shot SIX TIMES.

 

SIX TIMES.