Ferguson

[armadillo]

Breaking news - an independent autopsy (requested by the family) by Michael Baden shows that Brown was shot SIX TIMES.

 

SIX TIMES.

 

OMG, he is a professional victim! (Please note sarcasm)

 

16 people shot, 3 killed last night in Chicago. I assume the protestors are equally outraged?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-wounded-in-driveby-shooting-in-east-side-neighborhood-20140816-story.html

[rvwnsd]

OMG, he is a professional victim! (Please note sarcasm)

 

16 people shot, 3 killed last night in Chicago. I assume the protestors are equally outraged?

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-man-wounded-in-driveby-shooting-in-east-side-neighborhood-20140816-story.html

 

The protesters in Ferguson, MO might not be outraged, but residents of the affected Chicago neighborhoods, as well as residents of neighborhoods in which shootings do not occur, are outraged. So far, they haven't looted or burned vehicles, but the community and the local police are very angry about the violence. The difference, of course, is that the victims were not walking down the street with their hands above their heads and the shooters were not police officers.

[rvwnsd]

The big cities passed it up because they don't use military type equipment or because the equipment they passed up wasn't up to their standards?

 

I re-read the article to make sure I provided an accurate answer and realized that I misread it. The article stated that small- and mid-sized cities typically deployed the equipment they had received, whereas the large cities did not deploy the equipment they received. It cited the response to Occupy protests. New York, Boston, and Los Angeles did not have a militarized response to the protests. On the other hand, Tampa used tanks to break up the protests.

 

My apologies for relying on a fuzzy memory of an article read before the coffee took effect.

[Guest]

So the shooting is justified because the officer didn't know how to roll up his car window? (Which was probably already rolled up because it's MISSOURI in the summer. They're in A/C 24/7.)

 

You're putting words in my mouth that are the opposite of what I was saying. As I've said before, if the facts turn up the way they appear to be, the policeman should be not only fired but put in prison as well. What I said was that I cannot imagine how it could ever be proven that his actions were premeditated or planned in advance, so it's not Murder 1. I saw a witness on TV (a black woman) who said that she saw the two physically "tussling" through the patrol car window. This absolutely does not condone shooting a fleeing, unarmed man (assuming that's what happened). But IF he officer was punched around, it might mitigate, in the eyes of a jury, the seriousness of the crime from Murder 2 to Voluntary Manslaughter.

[+ deej]

16 people shot, 3 killed last night in Chicago. I assume the protestors are equally outraged?

 

How many of those killed were teenagers shot six times by the cop they were actively surrendering to?

 

Protect and serve should not include shoot to kill with teenagers in the act of surrender.

[bigvalboy]

I revisited Maddow's broadcast as well as reading your post several times, and to be honest I don't think your analogy is accurate nor applicable in this instance. They were not "her" statistics she was citing to begin with, but rather those from the state of MO.

 

Statistics in my opinion are not at issue. I think it is fair to say that there are issues in Ferguson, and if you listen carefully to her broadcast, some outrageous behavior was going on by the police, and have been for too long. If we are to believe that, statistics aside, why not try and fix the problem? There is racial disparity and not acting on that information doesn't fix it, it only exacerbates it. As she points out from one observer on the street, "You have to understand the frustration," and I think that is the greater message that Maddow was trying to speak to.

 

We do disagree then, and that's OK, as it often brings about a healthy discussion of varying viewpoints. I did not however, find her statements inflammatory, nor weak. Not everyone sees this problem to the extent that it has permeated many of the black neighborhoods in this country, except if you happened to be black and actually living in one of those neighborhoods, and now in Ferguson we have a child who is dead, who was unarmed and shot six times. In my opinion, that should be our focus.

Edited August 18, 2014 by bigvalboy

[rvwnsd]

How many of those killed were teenagers shot six times by the cop they were actively surrendering to?

 

Protect and serve should not include shoot to kill with teenagers in the act of surrender.

 

Excellent point.

 

Another point to ponder: The Chicago police haven't gone paramilitary nor have they turned the West and South sides into a militarized zone.

[+ purplekow]

We do disagree then, and that's OK, as it often brings about a healthy discussion of varying viewpoints. I did not however, find her statements inflammatory, nor weak. The focus of her show was to point out the racial disparity in Ferguson and cities like that all across the nation. I thought she did that concisely in the 20 min she had to break down and explain a problem that is centuries old. Not everyone sees this problem to the extent that it has permeated many of the black neighborhoods in this country, except if you happened to be black and actually living in one of those neighborhoods.

 

 

I understand she did not go out and do the survey herself, but she is reporting the results and these are the statistics she chose to use. So in that sense, these are her statistics and her facts. I am not disputing the veracity of the data she chose to present. I think this data unfairly simplifies a complex issue and presents a multifactorial issue as a single factor one. For me, her report disregards the many other factors that could lead to the racial disparity she presents. An acknowledgement of the complexity of the issue and a passing reference to other factors such as economic status and age would have made for a stronger presenation and, in my mind, it would have made it her discussion more compelling and less inflammatory.

 

Police behavior in Ferguson was egregious. The statistics in her report made me look more at Ms. Maddow's bias and less at the police's. Enough so, that I have spent considerable time discussing the faults of a report with which I would expect to agree. For me, she did a bad job.

[bigvalboy]

I understand she did not go out and do the survey herself, but she is reporting the results and these are the statistics she chose to use. So in that sense, these are her statistics and her facts. I am not disputing the veracity of the data she chose to present. I think this data unfairly simplifies a complex issue and presents a multifactorial issue as a single factor one. For me, her report disregards the many other factors that could lead to the racial disparity she presents. An acknowledgement of the complexity of the issue and a passing reference to other factors such as economic status and age would have made for a stronger presenation and, in my mind, it would have made it her discussion more compelling and less inflammatory.

 

Police behavior in Ferguson was egregious. The statistics in her report made me look more at Ms. Maddow's bias and less at the police's. Enough so, that I have spent considerable time discussing the faults of a report with which I would expect to agree. For me, she did a bad job.

 

Well I respectfully disagree of course, but appreciate you posting your viewpoint nonetheless, and have read them with interest. There are many side to this issue, and I often see only the side that mirrors my life's experiences. I had a lengthy discussion last night with a friend, who not surprisingly sides squarely with the police. He was unconvincing to me, but made some compelling points, which I could not ignore, nor disagree completely with. At any rate, how all of this shakes out will be fascinating to observe. All the best.

[+ deej]

Another point to ponder: The Chicago police haven't gone paramilitary nor have they turned the West and South sides into a militarized zone.

 

Ayup.

 

It's interesting that the town quieted down when they put a local state trooper in charge, but it flares up again every time the state or local officials do something new and stupid.

 

Ferguson, unlike some communities, does not require that their police force reside locally. They're outsiders. It seems to make a difference.

[bigvalboy]

Breaking news - an independent autopsy (requested by the family) by Michael Baden shows that Brown was shot SIX TIMES.

 

SIX TIMES.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/michael-brown-autopsy_n_5686672.html

 

Six times and twice in the head.

[+ deej]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/michael-brown-autopsy_n_5686672.html

 

Six times and twice in the head.

 

Six times and no gunshot residue on the skin. That likely means he was not shot at close range, such as during a scuffle. And he was shot in the front.

 

Testing might show different results if there is residue on the clothing but they weren't made available. (Nor were the results of the local coroner's autopsy.)

 

A lot is being kept under wraps here. It MAY exonerate the officer. Keeping it under covers does not serve that goal.

[bigvalboy]

Six times and no gunshot residue on the skin. That likely means he was not shot at close range, such as during a scuffle. And he was shot in the front.

 

Testing might show different results if there is residue on the clothing but they weren't made available. (Nor were the results of the local coroner's autopsy.)

 

A lot is being kept under wraps here. It MAY exonerate the officer. Keeping it under covers does not serve that goal.

 

OR it may indict him, either way, you are correct, "keeping it under covers does not serve that goal."

[+ deej]

Excellent point.

 

Another point to ponder: The Chicago police haven't gone paramilitary nor have they turned the West and South sides into a militarized zone.

 

John Oliver on the militarization of police forces:

 

[video=youtube_share;KUdHIatS36A]

[rvwnsd]

90 year old Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein was among those arrested during a peaceful protest in front of a state office building in St Louis today. The protesters were calling for the de-militarization of Ferguson, MO. Here's the Huffington Post story:

 

http://tinyurl.com/pvdaezr

[Guest]

And he was shot in the front.

 

Quite interesting. If all the shots were from the front, that seems to seriously discredit the witness accounts which said he was running away with his hands in the air. I never expected that. I guess it just highlights the importance of not rushing to judgment until all the facts are in. Mob mentality is not the best way to the truth.

[Steven_Draker]

... come to the conclusion that one shouldn't shoot dead an unarmed fleeing person.

 

One can probably avoid complications by just complying, no ...?

 

[video=youtube;eBL6AEkvLbk]

 

Alas some cops are too quick to use their guns nowadays.

[+ deej]

Quite interesting. If all the shots were from the front, that seems to seriously discredit the witness accounts which said he was running away with his hands in the air. I never expected that. I guess it just highlights the importance of not rushing to judgment until all the facts are in. Mob mentality is not the best way to the truth.

 

Or you need to get better witnesses.

 

The ones I saw were all pretty consistent that the kid was facing the officer, hands in the air, and saying "don't shoot".

[Frequentflier]

Quite interesting. If all the shots were from the front, that seems to seriously discredit the witness accounts which said he was running away with his hands in the air. I never expected that. I guess it just highlights the importance of not rushing to judgment until all the facts are in. Mob mentality is not the best way to the truth.

 

The report you've got incomplete is that he was running away until he felt getting shot. He then turned to surrender and put his hands up. Ferguson bought two cameras that can be worn by its officers but hadn't taken them out of the box "because they don't have the funds to install them". Bullshit. What the cop did to the teenager, whether he robbed the convenience store of $49 in cigars or not, is unconscionable. The kid could have lived from the five shots he received (but apparently the cop was still "scared for his life") but the last through the top of his head killed him. No unarmed teenager, or any human being, should be treated with such disregard and don't think, if behavior like the cops in Ferguson have displayed goes without firings and criminal charges - in addition to Fed supervised reforms, that because one is old, crusty and white or young and white that they wouldn't violate your rights if they had a bad cup of coffee or doughnuts.

[Strafe13]

Quite interesting. If all the shots were from the front, that seems to seriously discredit the witness accounts which said he was running away with his hands in the air. I never expected that. I guess it just highlights the importance of not rushing to judgment until all the facts are in. Mob mentality is not the best way to the truth.

 

I saw the interview of the man who assisted in the private autopsy. He said on air that the bullet that hit the inside of the right arm was consistent with being struck from the front as if he had his hands in the air trying to surrender, as witnesses described. The wound could also be consistent with being struck from behind while running away, due to the flexibility of the arms, and their likely positioning when one is running. Either way, the autopsy seems to be quite consistent with the varying witnesses' accounts. The situation is just so tragic. Even sadder, it's not at all an anomaly.

[armadillo]

I wonder how this will affect the current situation?

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/08/19/st-louis-officer-shooting/14295137/

[+ Axiom2001]

The report you've got incomplete is that he was running away until he felt getting shot. He then turned to surrender and put his hands up. Ferguson bought two cameras that can be worn by its officers but hadn't taken them out of the box "because they don't have the funds to install them". Bullshit. What the cop did to the teenager, whether he robbed the convenience store of $49 in cigars or not, is unconscionable. The kid could have lived from the five shots he received (but apparently the cop was still "scared for his life") but the last through the top of his head killed him. No unarmed teenager, or any human being, should be treated with such disregard and don't think, if behavior like the cops in Ferguson have displayed goes without firings and criminal charges - in addition to Fed supervised reforms, that because one is old, crusty and white or young and white that they wouldn't violate your rights if they had a bad cup of coffee or doughnuts.

 

Damn right! Michael Brown's death was definitely "unconscionable," and at this juncture, ten days later, the officer involved should be in jail awaiting a trial; all reports should be released to the proper authorities, and "JUSTICE SHOULD BE SERVED!"

[+ deej]

Damn right! Michael Brown's death was definitely "unconscionable," and at this juncture, ten days later, the officer involved should be in jail awaiting a trial; all reports should be released to the proper authorities, and "JUSTICE SHOULD BE SERVED!"

 

It's deja vu all over again. We had the same discussions after the Trayvon Martin killing. If the black kid had been the shooter he never would have seen daylight again except through the bars on his cell window, and he'd probably be tried and convicted by now.

 

Instead, we haven't even seen the official incident report. (But we've seen the incident report on the convenience store shoplifting.) I saw a report from CNN today where people "close to the case" <wink wink, nudge, nudge> leaked details of the official report, but WHY THE HELL HASN'T IT BEEN RELEASED?

 

I think everyone sees the whitewash in progress.

[bigvalboy]

It's deja vu all over again. We had the same discussions after the Trayvon Martin killing. If the black kid had been the shooter he never would have seen daylight again except through the bars on his cell window, and he'd probably be tried and convicted by now.

 

Instead, we haven't even seen the official incident report. (But we've seen the incident report on the convenience store shoplifting.) I saw a report from CNN today where people "close to the case" <wink wink, nudge, nudge> leaked details of the official report, but WHY THE HELL HASN'T IT BEEN RELEASED?

 

I think everyone sees the whitewash in progress.

 

Almost week into this, and the one eyewitness, the third person at the scene, had not been interviewed yet. He's been interviewed by reporters, but not the FBI or any law enforcement agency. The lawyers for the family have been insisting that he be interviewed. They have appointments set with the FBI, but no interviews yet. BTW, according to RM, his story is consistent every time he tells it.

 

Seems to me, that is one of the first persons that should have been interviewed, and a statement taken.

[+ deej]

Almost week into this, and the one eyewitness, the third person at the scene, had not been interviewed yet.

 

Yeah, I mentioned that earlier in the thread. The one eyewitness other than the shooter hasn't been interviewed.

 

As I also said, this is being bungled in every possible way to bungle and the people doing the bungling don't seem to be aware of it.

 

Not only is the witness consistent across interviews, his story is consistent with other people at the scene (who are also consistent across interviews). As Daddy always says, bullshit moves. The truth never does. The story offered by local authorities has morphed several times.