Ferguson

[Guest ChrisW]

A grand jury heard 70 hours of evidence and decided that there was not enough evidence to warrant a trial. "A boy was killed and the killer gets off free" That is the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that incites. Either you trust the judicial system or you don't, but according to the grand jury, his killer did not "get off" rather there was insufficent evidence to even send the policeman to trial. Perhaps you are inclined to believe, with the limited information you have, that a crime was committed, but according to the people with the most information, that was not the case.

 

 

 

In the most infamous recent murder case, OJ got off, he was charged and acquitted. In this case, there are no charges, so no one got off.

 

As for a conspiracy to wait until after dark in order to facilitate violence, I offer that if there was a conspiracy to delay the announcement, one may make the case that they did so in order to get prime time TV exposure and in that one would have a more plausible explanation.

 

 

As for your assertion that "no one gets justice here for anyone" i would contend that many people did not get the decision they wanted. Many hoped for a different outcome. But ultimately, the appropriate legal steps were taken and justice, agree with the decision or not, was served.

 

For justice to be served there has to be an intention and will for it to be done, appropriate legal steps don't take into account bias.

[armadillo]

"The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire!

We don't need no water—Let the motherfucker burn!

Burn, motherfucker, burn!"

 

Rock Master Scott & the Dynamic Three 1984

 

http://www.trbimg.com/img-54740e33/turbine/la-na-grand-jury-decision-ferguson-pictures-047/750/750x422

[bigvalboy]

"The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire!

We don't need no water—Let the motherfucker burn!

Burn, motherfucker, burn!"

 

Rock Master Scott & the Dynamic Three 1984

 

http://www.trbimg.com/img-54740e33/turbine/la-na-grand-jury-decision-ferguson-pictures-047/750/750x422

 

 

How apropos....

[+ purplekow]

For justice to be served there has to be an intention and will for it to be done, appropriate legal steps don't take into account bias.

 

 

Whose bias? The make up of the Grand Jury is unknown to me and I have no way of knowing whether they went in with an inclination one way or the other. 70 hours of evidence sound like an extensive job was done and without proof to the contrary, I am willing to believe that the Grand Jury members may not have wanted to be there, but that they tried to do the best job they could do. Perhap I am naive to think that there was an honest attempt to get this right. Perhaps other who think differently are cynical.

A young black man is dead. A white police officer killed him. Is the police officer a bigot who is glad he shot him? Is the young black man a criminal who got what he deserved? I am sure there are plenty of people answering yes to one of those and no to the other. Ultimately the issues of race in this country continue to rip at the fabric of society. It is better than it was, but with a wealth divide and a racial divide, it is difficult to envision a solution any time soon.

[Guest ChrisW]

We are all racist, sexist, homophobic, and the list goes on. How much we externalize this varies from person to person Kow. Assuming that people can put aside deeply held prejudices that our culture teaches us from birth for the sake of justice is a bit naive

[bigvalboy]

Whose bias? The make up of the Grand Jury is unknown to me and I have no way of knowing whether they went in with an inclination one way or the other. 70 hours of evidence sound like an extensive job was done and without proof to the contrary, I am willing to believe that the Grand Jury members may not have wanted to be there, but that they tried to do the best job they could do. Perhap I am naive to think that there was an honest attempt to get this right. Perhaps other who think differently are cynical.

A young black man is dead. A white police officer killed him. Is the police officer a bigot who is glad he shot him? Is the young black man a criminal who got what he deserved? I am sure there are plenty of people answering yes to one of those and no to the other. Ultimately the issues of race in this country continue to rip at the fabric of society. It is better than it was, but with a wealth divide and a racial divide, it is difficult to envision a solution any time soon.

 

 

Bingo.....Nothing is gonna change, at least nothing of note worthy.

[bigvalboy]

It puts them on the TeeVee machine during prime time. Best coverage.

 

Personally, I'm betting they wanted to let the protesters assemble and get all rubbed up. After they react, authorities can say "SEE? SEE HOW THEY ARE?" and send in the troops. It's all strategery.

 

If it wasn't so sad it would be funny. Indeed, less than 24 hours later, all the big wigs of Ferguson and beyond, parade proudly before the cameras shocked and appalled at the destruction from last night, vowing that it will never happen again. They intend to protect the good people of Ferguson from such anarchy. Yes....."SEE? SEE HOW THEY ARE?"

[BSR]

http://33.media.tumblr.com/991708f5f756fc0c32ec02ac88b4c5cb/tumblr_nflgu9rwvs1rboqfio1_500.png

[BSR]

[bigvalboy]

Well thank you for your post BSR, and I thank you for helping to prove my point, though I realize that was not your intention, but you did nonetheless. Indeed it is a very powerful image, and I am sure the all the Ferguson big wigs, and the 'Gov' are absolutely delighted that this sort of thing is out there for public viewing. At any rate, always enjoy your take on things and have a great holiday. We have much to be thankful for.

[+ WilliamM]

Well thank you for your post BSR' date=' and I thank you for helping to prove my point, though I realize that was not your intention, but you did nonetheless. Indeed it is a very powerful image, and I am sure the all the Ferguson big wigs, and the 'Gov' are absolutely delighted that this sort of thing is out there for public viewing. At any rate, always enjoy your take on things and have a great holiday. We have much to be thankful for.[/quote']

 

+1

[rguer]

The prosecutor got the result he wanted - no indictment.

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205247342493103

[+ quoththeraven]

The purpose of a grand jury is to determine whether there is probable cause to file charges, not to determine guilt or innocence. That means the DA puts forward the best possible case for prosecution. They don't throw everything at the grand jury and let them decide what happened; that's the job of a trial (petit) jury. Only really bad cases -- ones where the grand jury feels that under no view of the facts could the person be found guilty -- result in no indictment. For more on this, here's Tumblr commentary by an assistant state's attorney in Baltimore:

 

http://lindentreeisle.tumblr.com/post/103508665696/justice4mikebrown-ive-noticed-some-people-are

 

A more extensive post by another attorney reblogged by the same assistant state's attorney:

 

http://lindentreeisle.tumblr.com/post/103600053421/why-the-ferguson-grand-jury-was-completely

 

Here's an analysis of the (non-existent) cross-examination of Darren Wilson:

 

http://lindentreeisle.tumblr.com/post/103647444636/t-ii-civil-rights-attorney-msnbc-legal-analyst

 

Also, the grand jury was composed of nine whites and three African-Americans -- two women and one man. Nine votes are required to indict.

 

A masterpost with links about the case:

 

http://ponyregrets.tumblr.com/post/103635921889/rosethomass-if-you-like-me-get-so-angry-when

 

Even assuming -- and given the information and video in the above masterpost, that's an iffy assumption -- Michael Brown shoplifted cigars, that is neither the grounds for the death penalty (which is in effect what happened here) or for shooting a fleeing suspect, who has to have committed a violent felony, see masterpost. FFS, the Supreme Court has held that the death penalty is only constitutionally permissible in homicide cases.

 

Ex-NBA star Charles Barkley wrote a book titled Who's Afraid of a Large Black Man? According to his grand jury testimony, Darren Wilson is. Black men are automatically presumed to be dangerous criminals, so the fear of them is considered justified and reasonable. Not much will improve until people lose that ingrained fear. Want more proof? White men get away with far worse without being shot by the police.

 

And as for the argument that any violence that's occurred invalidates any of this? (And as far as I know, it's been property damage that's occurred, not looting.) In March of 1968, Martin Luther King, Jr. said this:

 

I am still committed to militant, powerful, massive, non*-violence as the most potent weapon in grappling with the problem from a direct action point of view. I'm absolutely convinced that a riot merely intensifies the fears of the white community while relieving the guilt. And I feel that we must always work with an effective, powerful weapon and method that brings about tangible results. But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? .... It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.

Source here.

 

If Martin Luther King, Jr. were alive today, he'd be able to make the same speech, except instead of pointing to poverty he'd point to police misconduct and a siege mentality that assumes that black folks are up to no good while white folks get the benefit of the doubt. I'd also like to point out that there's no big outcry when senseless property damage happens after a city's sports team loses. That's considered par for the course.

[bigvalboy]

Another shooting, and again another tragedy. This time a 12 year old child. Overshadowed by the tragedy in Ferguson.

 

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cleveland-video-police-shooting-tamir-rice

 

Nothing will change until we change the way police look at, and relate to black people in this country. It is imperative...We won't of course, but on this Thanksgiving, I still hope.

[armadillo]

 

Nothing will change until we change the way police look at, and relate to black people in this country.

 

And relations to any people of color. Look at this tragedy in California with a Hispanic kid killed with a toy gun:

 

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/2227071-181/deputy-in-andy-lopez-shooting

[+ quoththeraven]

Nothing will change until we change the way police look at, and relate to black people in this country. It is imperative...We won't of course, but on this Thanksgiving, I still hope.

 

It's not just the police. it's everyone. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

[bigvalboy]

It's not just the police. it's everyone. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

 

Of course you are correct QTR, which is why I have so little hope. On a happier note, I wish you a wonderful Thanksgiving.

[Frequentflier]

It's not just the police. it's everyone. As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

 

And the police too often don't have a bias against just black people, its a lack of respect for most people. And its extremely difficult to discipline or fire a police officer for even blatant, often illegal, misconduct. There is the case in California where the white son of a former police officer was brutally beaten to death (in front of witnesses and with video). Charged, tried and....acquitted.

 

Another example is in Denver which has such big problems in its police and sheriffs departments that in just the past four months alone over $10 million has been paid out to victims and their families. That doesn't count outside legal fees and there are more cases coming. They struggle against the police union. The only other constituency the police/sheriff/mayor and city council cares less about than those incarcerated are the taxpayers.

 

So while the police have less respect for black people, don't be comfortable because you are white, or rich (more often than not one thinks they are rich).

 

Body cameras may help and many cities are adding them. But the justice system is so skewed towards law enforcement I'm doubtful. And lets not forget how many of those arrested plead guilty because of 1) lack of funds for a good lawyer, 2) sentencing guidelines that are extreme and 3) the pile on of charges for a single crime. Bottom line, whether innocent or not, if you find yourself against the system you're toast. And that's assuming you make it to jail without being the victim of police brutality ("cause they were just protecting them poor selves").

 

Interesting how the as****e Wilson is now all over tv saying he did his job and he'd do it again. No class whatsoever.

[Guest]

Most of what Frequentflier says is true, and I'm definitely a strong supporter of body cameras, which protect all involved. Things would go a lot better, however, if parents would teach their children to at least show a little respect for the police officers who put their bodies and limbs at risk in the name of public safety. Even if you believe the officer is being an A-hole, it's not OK to just punch him in the face because you feel like it. And when a police officer tells you to drop the gun, you fucking drop it. You don't swing it around, even if it's a really neat-looking replica or toy gun. Police officers don't have the luxury to be contemplating how serious the risk to their life is when they are faced with such situations. The A-holes are those who beat up cops who are on duty, or who point replica guns at the cops. From my understanding of the forensic evidence, Michael Brown was a seriously messed up guy who brought this all upon himself. The victim is the officer, a man who had never previously discharged his weapon on duty, but whose career may be ruined for defending his life against a 6'4" 280# sociopathic thug.

[Steven_Draker]

Check this out:

 

Haunting Aerial Photos Of Ferguson The Day After The Grand Jury Protests

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/haunting-aerial-photos-of-ferguson-the-day-after-the-grand-j

[bigvalboy]

Most of what Frequentflier says is true, and I'm definitely a strong supporter of body cameras, which protect all involved. Things would go a lot better, however, if parents would teach their children to at least show a little respect for the police officers who put their bodies and limbs at risk in the name of public safety. Even if you believe the officer is being an A-hole, it's not OK to just punch him in the face because you feel like it. And when a police officer tells you to drop the gun, you fucking drop it. You don't swing it around, even if it's a really neat-looking replica or toy gun. Police officers don't have the luxury to be contemplating how serious the risk to their life is when they are faced with such situations. The A-holes are those who beat up cops who are on duty, or who point replica guns at the cops. From my understanding of the forensic evidence, Michael Brown was a seriously messed up guy who brought this all upon himself. The victim is the officer, a man who had never previously discharged his weapon on duty, but whose career may be ruined for defending his life against a 6'4" 280# sociopathic thug.

 

So when all is said and done, you think he deserved to die? He should have been shot 12 times. It was OK to take his life? He got his just due? The officer had no other choice, it was kill or be killed? Just curious if you think the punishment fit the crime? I'm asking the question, but already know your answer. ..... We actually will never know, because the only other person that was involved is dead....No matter. A 12 year old black child was just shot the other day by police, for waving around a toy gun, but you're most likely right, he should have known better.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/23/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html

[Frequentflier]

Most of what Frequentflier says is true, and I'm definitely a strong supporter of body cameras, which protect all involved. Things would go a lot better, however, if parents would teach their children to at least show a little respect for the police officers who put their bodies and limbs at risk in the name of public safety. Even if you believe the officer is being an A-hole, it's not OK to just punch him in the face because you feel like it. And when a police officer tells you to drop the gun, you fucking drop it. You don't swing it around, even if it's a really neat-looking replica or toy gun. Police officers don't have the luxury to be contemplating how serious the risk to their life is when they are faced with such situations. The A-holes are those who beat up cops who are on duty, or who point replica guns at the cops. From my understanding of the forensic evidence, Michael Brown was a seriously messed up guy who brought this all upon himself. The victim is the officer, a man who had never previously discharged his weapon on duty, but whose career may be ruined for defending his life against a 6'4" 280# sociopathic thug.

 

Let's not get a police officer confused with a soldier who volunteers to risk his/her life in a war. "police officers who put their bodies and limbs at risk". Bullshit. Don't like the job, don't think the pay is good (you need a second job), quit. Soldiers don't have that option. Its a job they want for the power that comes with it, and thanks to police unions, nearly no accountability when they step out of line. Even if you believe anyone is an A hole you don't have a right to punch them in the face. And leadership starts at the top. If a street cop acts like an asshole its because of poor hiring practices and low expectations from above. Too often we hear that police are trained that if they need to shoot their gun its to kill. That's an f'ed up policy. I'm curious where you see a rash of "a-holes" beating up cops on duty. Cops are given tasers as a non lethal option. In Denver, one of the cases the city lost was for sheriff deputies using tasers in a manner against regulations (essentially torturing a prisoner) and the stupid shits were on camera. When a deputy is to stupid to act illegally on a camera it shows the hiring practices are way off. Michael Brown was no angel. Did he deserve to die? No. Did the asshole cop escalate the situation by showing disrespect from the beginning, yes. Did leaving Michael Brown uncovered on the street for hours piss people off - white and black people - hell yes. Did the dumbass cops rolling excess military equipment onto the streets and snipers pointing rifles at protesters piss people off - including members of congress - hell yes. The protesters aren't paid or trained, the cops are. So who should be held to the higher standard? Duh.

 

And if Wilson had any class or professionalism he'd be saying today "I'm sorry I had to take another life but I had no choice." Instead of the Missouri stupid response of "I did my job and I'd shoot him again". Other racists will hire the jerk when he quits the department.

 

Here's an encounter between a white cop and a white civilian. And the cop involved was hired even though he cost a previous department he worked for $6 million because he caused an accident that crippled a man for life. So, sure, he'd be a good hire in another department. And the cop is so stupid that when interviewed afterwards his response is "I was concerned. It was a public safety issue," the sergeant said. "If I had to do it all over again ... I'd probably do the same thing. If I knew the camera was there, no, because it does look bad."

 

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Saratoga-deputy-suspended-as-video-of-slapping-5880169.php

[Strafe13]

Based on the version of events you summarized, ending with the racially coded characterization of Brown as a "6'4" 280# sociopathic thug," it seems clear that you bought Officer Wilson's account, hook, line and sinker, despite the fact that he was never cross-examined, many people who've reviewed the whole transcript have said his story sounds completely unbelievable (see e.g., http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side), and it conflicts with many eyewitness accounts. It's still hard for me to see how Wilson could have had an objectively reasonable belief that he needed to fire 12 rounds at an unarmed man who had fled, and was no where near him, even if they did have a scuffle a few moments earlier by his squad car. Reading Wilson's testimony, I was sickened by the disturbingly racist way in which he characterized Brown, using the pronoun "it," saying he looked like a demon, describing Brown as hulk Hogan and himself as a 5-yr old holding onto him (both men are/were 6'4", although Brown was approximately 80lbs heavier), and saying that Brown, who was already bleeding from being shot, made an aggressive snorting sound as he prepared to charge at Wilson to run through the bullets. Seriously?!? You know, because black people are animalistic snorting hulks, who are invulnerable and feel no pain, and can run through bullets.

 

There are always inconsistencies in witness accounts, and the primary purpose of a trial is to sort those things out (such as via cross-examination of witnesses) so as to reveal the truth, but this clearly biased DA made sure we'll never get that by employing such an extremely unusual practice (see http://web.law.columbia.edu/social-justice/forum-on-ferguson/facts), essentially rigging this grand jury proceeding to ensure there was no indictment.

 

Most of what Frequentflier says is true, and I'm definitely a strong supporter of body cameras, which protect all involved. Things would go a lot better, however, if parents would teach their children to at least show a little respect for the police officers who put their bodies and limbs at risk in the name of public safety. Even if you believe the officer is being an A-hole, it's not OK to just punch him in the face because you feel like it. And when a police officer tells you to drop the gun, you fucking drop it. You don't swing it around, even if it's a really neat-looking replica or toy gun. Police officers don't have the luxury to be contemplating how serious the risk to their life is when they are faced with such situations. The A-holes are those who beat up cops who are on duty, or who point replica guns at the cops. From my understanding of the forensic evidence, Michael Brown was a seriously messed up guy who brought this all upon himself. The victim is the officer, a man who had never previously discharged his weapon on duty, but whose career may be ruined for defending his life against a 6'4" 280# sociopathic thug.

[+ deej]

Based on the version of events you summarized, ending with the racially coded characterization of Brown as a "6'4" 280# sociopathic thug," it seems clear that you bought Officer Wilson's account, hook, line and sinker, despite the fact that he was never cross-examined, many people who've reviewed the whole transcript have said his story sounds completely unbelievable (see e.g., http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side), and it conflicts with many eyewitness accounts. It's still hard for me to see how Wilson could have had an objectively reasonable belief that he needed to fire 12 rounds at an unarmed man who had fled, and was no where near him, even if they did have a scuffle a few moments earlier by his squad car. Reading Wilson's testimony, I was sickened by the disturbingly racist way in which he characterized Brown, using the pronoun "it," saying he looked like a demon, describing Brown as hulk Hogan and himself as a 5-yr old holding onto him (both men are/were 6'4", although Brown was approximately 80lbs heavier), and saying that Brown, who was already bleeding from being shot, made an aggressive snorting sound as he prepared to charge at Wilson to run through the bullets. Seriously?!? You know, because black people are animalistic snorting hulks, who are invulnerable and feel no pain, and can run through bullets.

 

There are always inconsistencies in witness accounts, and the primary purpose of a trial is to sort those things out (such as via cross-examination of witnesses) so as to reveal the truth, but this clearly biased DA made sure we'll never get that by employing such an extremely unusual practice (see http://web.law.columbia.edu/social-justice/forum-on-ferguson/facts), essentially rigging this grand jury proceeding to ensure there was no indictment.

 

+1

 

I particularly snickered at the "sociopathic thug" part. There is nothing to support this claim. The dead kid was reportedly a well-regarded college-bound kid in his community.

 

But just as happens in other redneck/Jim Crow regions, one of the good 'ol boys got hisself in a fix and they circled the wagons to cover his sorry ass. And make no mistake about it, that area of Missouri/southern Illinois/Kentucky are every bit as redneck/Jim Crow as anything you'll see in Mississippi or Alabama.

 

There is nothing about this story that passes a basic sniff test.

[+ pitman]

Hmmm...I'm sure its all just a coincidence.

 

Deaths Of Six Men Tied To Ferguson Protests Prompt Fear Of Sinister Connection

 

By JIM SALTER

March 17, 2019 1:00 pm

 

FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) — Two young men were found dead inside torched cars. Three others died of apparent suicides. Another collapsed on a bus, his death ruled an overdose.

 

Six deaths, all involving men with connections to protests in Ferguson, Missouri, drew attention on social media and speculation in the activist community that something sinister was at play.

 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/deaths-of-six-men-tied-to-ferguson-protests-prompt-fear-of-sinister-connection