Germans are perverts

[kjun]

I realize that I am opening myself to much criticism but here goes:

 

Tonight I have viewed many profiles on gaydar.com. Most were of areas and persons in Germany. MANY of these guys are into leather, fist fucking, water sports, scat and S & M. I have, for some time, felt that Germans were on the edge and these viewings have confirmed it for me. A large percentage of German Gays are perverts.

 

the Cajun

[VaHawk]

LOL, now I hope you are taking cover, because you know you are going to get it! Maybe they are just playing to the stereotype of the German/Nazi? BTW: I thought all gays were perverts (at least thats what the Moral Majority keeps pounding me over the head with)?

 

Don't know if this only applies to German gays on gaydar.com though. I see a lot of sick ads out there on all the gay cruising sites, and I believe a lot of them are just role playing bs. Gay Universe and crusing for sex have some really sick postings and pics, most totally phoney and flakey.

[kjun]

Hawk, I know I'm going to get blasted but this is what I felt for some time and now I've said it. I don't just base this on my Gaydar experience. I've been to a few bars in Germany and the guys I met there are the reason I first began to think about this. Granted, people here in the US are into a lot of crap that holds no interest for me but I believe that the Germans enter into it in a much greater percentage.;-)

 

the Cajun

[TotallyOz]

Funny thing: Last week I was talking to a friend of mine who is German. He said to me, what is it with you American's are paying for escorts? That is perverted!

 

I guess everyone has their own limits on what is perverted or not. I was told by my southern family that my homosexual lifestyle was perverted when I came out.

 

One of the hardest things for me in the gay community is that we are so discriminatory to each other. Why is ok to hire an escort but not to enjoy S & M? What is ok to pay someone to do a lab dance but not ok for someone else to dress in women's attire? I just don't get it. I really don't. I do not care what any two consenting adults decide they want to do in order to get off, please themselves, or just have fun. I have friends that are into fisting, water sports, spanking, barebacking, dressing in drag, going to sex clubs, toys (both small and large), pornographic videos, having three ways with others (including sometimes women), and so on and so forth. I personally may not get into some of those things, but I'll be dammed if I will prevent or discriminate against someone who decides they want to do that with another consenting adult. It is none of my fucking business.

 

Thank goodness my friends that I know from my "straight days" who know that I hire escorts on a regular basis do not say that is perverted. But, there are many others that do.

 

I guarantee you that there are many of those guys you are referring to us as perverted turning around and saying, "damm, those guys paying for someone to sleep with them is so perverted."

 

I know I am probably in the minority on this one, but, I had to speak my mind on this. That, and some of the best porn sites out there today are based in Germany!

[Rick Munroe]

>I know I am probably in the minority on this one

 

Count me in that minority. I agree with everything you said, Oz.

[trilingual]

This isn't a phenomenon limited to Germany. Been anywhere in Northern Europe lately, like Holland, Belgium, Britain, France (at least the northern part), the Scandinavian countries, etc.? Fetishism is very big in all of those countries.

 

The degree of fascination with hard-core S&M, water sports, scat, etc. in those countries has always seemed odd to me, and I say this even though my closest friends in Europe are DEEPLY involved in those scenes. I still haven't figured out why these kinds of sexual interests are so prevalent in Northern Europe. It's certainly apparent that the proportion of guys who are into these scenes is much larger in Europe than it is in the U.S., where there is also no shortage of interest. In the U.S., though, there seems to be a lot more wearing of the associated costumes, without necessarily the behavior that would ordinarily accompany the wearing of such costumes in Europe. But even just wearing the costumes is a kind of fetishism, and it's not something I understand. I guess when you're not into it, you just aren't, and there's certainly no accounting for sexual tastes! I suppose my friends who are into these scenes are equally mystified by my interest in "vanilla" sex and my utter lack of interest in water sports, fist-fucking and other such frolics.

 

What IS frustrating is that the wearing of costumes to go out cruising in the Northern European and American gay communities has become so prevalent that they've become a kind of uniform. If you don't go out dressed like a cowboy or truck driver or motorcycle enthusiast you're just invisible. Even though 99% of the people dressed in those costumes have nothing to do with the occupations or interests the costumes represent.

 

Interestingly, there is much less of this in Southern Europe and Latin America. While there are certainly people in those countries who affect such costumes, and are into the various fetishes, they seem to be a distinct minority. Few people seem to be attracted by more "extreme" sexual practices, and most people wear "ordinary" clothing when they go out cruising. It's not necessary to dress as something you're not to be successful in finding a partner for the evening!

 

Clearly there's a cultural divide at work, but I don't understand its source. It would seem like a fascinating subject for study for a sociology paper! I suspect it has something to do with the Protestant vs. Catholic views of life and sexuality, given that the cultural divide mostly mirrors the religious divide, geographically. But perhaps there are other factors that contribute to it. Any thoughts on the subject, guys?

[axebahia]

>This isn't a phenomenon limited to Germany. Been anywhere in

>Northern Europe lately, like Holland, Belgium, Britain, France

>(at least the northern part), the Scandinavian countries,

>etc.? Fetishism is very big in all of those countries.

 

That may well be true, but the Germans are twisted. I recall being in Duisberg one Sunnday. It's on the shore of the Ruhr River which was the old Nazi industrial base so it was bombed through and through. Somehow I could not makes sense of the Oom papa bands and the leather shops side by side. The Holocaust museum and the modern art nmuseum also seemed strangely misplaced.

[Luv2play]

This is something I have noticed as well. Northern Europeans and their descendants in America tend to the fetishes more readily than others, especially Latinos and Southern Europeans generally, even within the same countries such as Italy (more kink and blue eyes in Milan than Rome). As the Protestant movement was more pronounced in Northern Europe that may have something to do with it. It may be something more innate to the races too, the Nordics being exposed to a harsher climate and more physical adversity than the lush, easy surroundings of the Mediterranean.

 

How this translates into S&M and other fetishes is complex and has been little studied by serious academics, at least as far as I am aware. The Marquis de Sade, of course, wrote about his passions and one can see from his writings that there is little in the 21st century that wasn't known to be practised in the 18th century in France.

 

I too think the Germans today are the kinkiest, but since there is so much German influence in all of Northern Europe (at one time they provided the heads to most of the royal families in Northern Europe (England, Russia, Austria-Hungary), that is not surprising. Even in North America, in the early nineteenth century, Germans were the third largest ethnic group.

 

I have also noticed that escorts of German descent are more open to kink and raunch than, say, Latinos or many blacks, particularly those of Caribbean origin. Of course there are exceptions but that may be because of these individuals having had German boyfriends!!!

}( }(

[Guest TwinPeaks]

I am in the minority too I guess. While I may not be totally into the entire S/M scene, I do enjoy some it. It's just a preference, like being a top or bottom, or into Asians or African-Americans or what have you. There should be nothing wrong or perverted about people like or dislike. Varity is the spice of life, whether you like habanaros or bell peppers.

[btmstudnyc]

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[btmstudnyc]

RELIGION and CULTURE

 

I have no scientific or any basis for this...but here goes. If someone proves this wrong or in bad taste....I will totally be willing to hear what they have to say.

 

I have the feeling that the answer may be based on Religion and how each culture understands SEX.

 

Most Europeans don't have hangups about sex in general, so I think they may have already done more and are on to the next thrill ride.

 

USA was started with the PURITANS...and we dont believe in a lot of sex practices...and it is written into LAW.

 

Some old Greeks were known for introducing boys into manhood by having a male sponsor fuck them when they were young.

 

The Spartans encouraged homosexuality amongst their soldiers and put them into battle together to have them fight more fiercely to save the other from peril.

 

With that kind of background...It makes it easier for Europeans to be out in the open about what they like...I think we have just as many people here think about it..but dont follow through because of Shame.

 

Who in America will admit they like Scat...when our ideas of hygiene are not like the rest of the world.

 

BTW...Water Sports happens to be safer then letting someone cum. Piss is STERILE....it may not smell or taste good...but some would argue that it is better then some cum they have had.

 

I'm not promoting or judging any lifestyle. My boundaries, change daily according to whom I'm with and how I feel. Some things re-establish boundaries while other things make them bigger.

 

I do think GERMANS are more preverted...haha. They have had more legal ways to kill, torture and mame people then we have....but then again...maybe thats why we love that S&M thing here in America...because we had slavery here.

 

I think history, and religion in our culture gives us ideas of what is perverted.

 

There is one thing that I know is preverted and fucked...(no not beastiality...go fuck your dog) it is SNUFF FILMS.....YIKES

 

JIM

 

PS....I remember just mentioning beastiality in a conversation once...and the guy was so comfortable with me...he told me how he used to fuck the animals on his farm....I had to disguise my horror until I coulf find someone to save me. Not that I'm judging....but isnt that how syphilis and the clap started?

 

 

If it dont fit, force it

btmstudnyc@aol.com

[VaHawk]

>What IS frustrating is that the wearing of costumes to go out

>cruising in the Northern European and American gay communities

>has become so prevalent that they've become a kind of uniform.

> If you don't go out dressed like a cowboy or truck driver or

>motorcycle enthusiast you're just invisible.

 

Huh? This is true of the leather/levi, c&w and s/m bars 20 years or more ago, but I don't think it is that way anymore at least not here in DC and most other US cities that I've visited. Back then if you weren't dressed this way you were strictly verbotten to enter the bar. Now they let just about anyone in.

 

>Clearly there's a cultural divide at work, but I don't

>understand its source. It would seem like a fascinating

>subject for study for a sociology paper! I suspect it has

>something to do with the Protestant vs. Catholic views of life

>and sexuality, given that the cultural divide mostly mirrors

>the religious divide, geographically.

 

Man, I don't get this point. I think Catholicism is much more restrictive, controlling, dominating of the human spirit and damning to the human soul than Protestantism. I believe Catholicism is the dominant religion of southern Europe and Latin America, isn't it? Where was the Spanish Inquistion? What about the not so mythical Latino machismo?

[+ Axiom2001]

RE: RELIGION and CULTURE

 

...interesting takes on this topic which would make for an outstanding doctoral dissertation... ...enjoyed the read! ...don't have anything to add or delete!

[trilingual]

RE: RELIGION and CULTURE

 

Although I'm not Catholic, I grew up in an entirely Catholic environment in Latin America, so I think I have some clues about sexuality in the Catholic countries and perhaps why it differs from sexual attitudes in Protestant climes. However, these are just clues, not definitive observations.

 

Catholicism has some weird teaching about sex, as we all know, but interestingly those teachings seem to be observed more in the breach than in actually being followed. (This has been a long, slow process, but it's creating a widening chasm between doctrine and practice among ordinary Catholics that could ultimately destroy the Church. But that's another thread!) People just go ahead and do what they want to do and just don't talk about it. The average Catholic seems to find the sexual teachings illogical, incomprehensible and unnatural, and treats them as something of a joke. In real life, hypocrisy seems to be the Catholic solution to the divergence between teaching and practice. Lip service is paid to the teaching, but nobody actually observes it. This probably helps explain the concept so prevalent in Brazil and elsewhere in Latin America that what goes in within four walls is private and nobody else's business, so guys who are seemingly masculine and even "straight" will allow themselves to get fucked in a private setting. Furthermore, it's not clear to me that Catholicism has always focused on sexual sins as being more serious than other kinds of sin, at least not until recently, so possibly people in Catholic cultures don't regard them as being as serious. The practice of confession probably contributes to the generally loose attitudes in Catholic countries, too, because even if people did succumb to lust and temptation they could just confess, say a bunch of "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys", and have a clean slate until the next lustful opportunity presented itself! Furthermore, in spite of its conflicted attitudes towards sexuality, Catholicism isn't, by and large, puritanical. Maybe the early Church was ascetic and anti-sexual, but things certainly changed over the centuries. Drinking, feasting, celebrating, dancing, wealth, luxury, etc. aren't considered sinful in Catholicism, and of course, sex is often associated with those. Dressing in what Northerners (who are mostly Protestant) would consider sexually alluring attire is also common in Catholic countries. Anyone who has traveled in Latin America knows that perfectly decent, chaste, well-brought up young women commonly wear clothing that, to Northern eyes, is too tight, too short, too revealing. Yet it's acceptable clothing to wear to work, to go shopping, even to go to church! Men also tend to dress more provocatively in Catholic countries: the tight trousers, the rolled up shirt sleeves to show off the biceps, the shirt open to the navel to show off the muscles and the chest hair. . . So there's definitely something of a North (Protestant)/South (Catholic) cultural divide here.

 

Also, a lot of the fetishes have a common thread of domination/subjection and/or humiliation that seems to particulary attract the Northern types, whereas it doesn't much seem to interest Southerners. I can't quite figure out why that's the case; maybe I'm too close to the Southern culture, having grown up in it, to see the reasons clearly. Any further ideas, guys?

[VaHawk]

All Germans are perverts

All Italians are extroverts

All Spaniards are strange

All Frenchmen are insane

All Englishmen are cold

All Scots men are bold

All Irish men are drunks

All Poles smell like skunks

All Dutchmen are cheap

All Romanians are creeps

All Hungarians have a short dick

All Portugese are hot enough to lick

All Swedes are blonde and thusly dumb

All Russians are cold and white and shoot frozen cum

All Austrians wish they were German

All Norwegians wish they were any kind of man

All Japanese eat rice and wear glasses

All other Asians wish they had big cocks and bubble asses

All Africans can use their cocks to scratch their toes

All Austrailian men are gay and think women are clueless 'hos

All Central/South Americans will fuck anything that walks

All Canadians take no action and would rather just talk

All Americans are a conglomeration of all of the above

Yet so many of them keep on labeling the variety of others as an all

For me at least there are no alls

Ill take them as they come and have myself a ball

For each and everyone no matter what the mix

Ill thank God for all the hot tricks

[Flower]

One man's perversion is another's fulfillment--who are YOU to pass judgment. I am sure there are bounds, if crossed, where no reasonable person would deny an act is "perverse", but I'm not sure I could define those bounds other than in generalities of maintaining human dignity and doing no physical or emotional harm to another--but even those lines are blurry in areas of sex. :9

 

Some might think my fantasy of dropping to my knees under a table in a fine NYC restaurant and completely and gratuitously sucking off some VERY hot guy in a public setting would be perverse--and that is MILD compared to some of my other fantasies }(

 

I wouldn't ever criticize you for saying you weren't into this or that or found this or that repulsive or unappealing--but to label an act "perverse" based on your limited personal values and label a race perverted based on your very, very limited and unscientific sampling, is, to say the least, in and of itself, rather, er...perverse :+

[Rick Munroe]

>my fantasy of dropping to my knees under a

>table in a fine NYC restaurant and completely and gratuitously

>sucking off some VERY hot guy in a public setting

 

At which restaurant shall we meet, Flower?

[Rick Munroe]

>All Russians are cold and white and shoot frozen cum

 

Well, some of us are hot and dark and erupt molten lava.

[+ glutes]

I think you hit it right on the head Kjun.

I have been to a foreign massage studio, and my having a aryan / Northern Euro look, most of the therapists look at me and say "You aren't German are you?". When I disclose my real roots they have all indicated their relief...

[+ glutes]

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No message

[Flower]

:9

[+ Charlie]

RE: RELIGION and CULTURE

 

"Catholicism" is, as the word implies, extremely broad, so it's hard to find a monolithic attitude toward sexual matters across all Catholic cultures. In this country the church has tended to be dominated by Irish Catholics, who are much more sexually repressive--and repressed--than Latin Catholics, which leads Americans to think of Catholicism as much more sex-averse than it is worldwide. "Protestantism", of course, is even broader, ranging from extreme liberalism regarding sexual activity to belief in total abstinence (e.g., the Shakers); once again, the American view of Protestantism is skewed by our experience with the Puritan founding fathers, who have influenced even American Catholicism.

 

I find it interesting that the most sexually liberal country in the world (IMHO) is the Netherlands, which is almost evenly divided between Protestants and Catholics.

[axebahia]

RE: RELIGION and CULTURE

 

>I find it interesting that the most sexually liberal country

>in the world (IMHO) is the Netherlands, which is almost evenly

>divided between Protestants and Catholics.

 

Interesting point but don't forget about Thailand which is 94% Budhist!

[kjun]

Thank you oh mighty sage. I was waiting for your admonition.}(

 

the Cajun

[+ Charlie]

RE: RELIGION and CULTURE

 

I'm not sure the Thais are very liberal in their attitudes toward consensual sexual activity in general, as the Dutch seem to be. I doubt that many Thais approve of children of both sexes being used as prostitutes for the tourist trade, yet it is apparently commonplace; on the other hand, such activities would never be tolerated by the Dutch, yet adult prostitution is perfectly legal and open in Holland. By the way, China has historically had a strong Buddhist influence, and yet the Chinese can be quite puritanical about sex. Once again, it's not so much the formal religion as the general culture in which it operates that determines attitudes toward sex (e.g., Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation, yet the position of women there is very different from the Middle East).