Should XL Passengers have to Purchase Two Seats?

[adriano46]

I have been flying a lot for my entire adult life.

 

When I began, I weiged in at only 150-155 lbs and was well-proportioned for my size, and could even tak the middle seat of the first Airbuses that came out (that had those horrid 4 in the centre seats).

 

But in the last decade, as I hit over 220 lbs with a small tire, getting into some seats on some airlines has been a nearly impossible feat. I once flew on Business on a reputable arline, but the pelvic room was barely able to fit me, and the seat belt?? I actually had to ask the stewardess, "Are you sure this is a Business seat?" which embarrassed me as much as her.

 

In the last few years much of my travel has been in the States and I find the seats getting slightly saller (or me getting larger??) but I dread any flight over 2 hours, because I land with pains up and down my bdy from trying to squeeze my frame into (always) and aisle seat, and spending much of the flight leaning into the aisle (when not being rudely bumped by food trays, stewards and stewardeses, and oversized passangers who are obvlious to flaying arms and hips). Many airlines have little pitch in the economy seats, and the newest rip-off of "extra room seats" are a joke (especially on DELTA but also on the others).

 

I try to fly business when my budget allows, and will cash in FFM to do this when able, but all in all I am getting to dread flying (which I have enjoyed so much).

 

I do not mind the TSA search -- I have lived in countries where this kind of invasion of the body was done routinely 40 years ago so I learn to dress accordingly and go with the flow (eg. slip on shoes, loose clothing, making sure NOTHING metalic is on my clothing or on me, and just refrain from panic by arriving always ahead of time).

 

My issue is with the increasingly rude and obnoxious behavior of passengers. Starting with the size of the "carry-on" and all the way through to dress (or more, inappropriate and offensive undress), personal hygiene (imagine an 8 hour flight next to someone whose clothes are in bad need of laundering, as is the body from the smells emenating from it, and the flight full so you cannot change seats...), noise levels (too many trans-Atlantic or cross country flights with people who do not know how to modulate down their voice, or perhaps understand the rest of the cabin is absolutely NOT interested in their conversation), and of course those who sit next to you and decide tey want to know your entire personal history -- and share theirs -- when I am just not interested as I have no intention of ever seeing them again in my life. (On this one, knowing multiple languages, I just pretend I do not speak whatever language they begin using... -- admittedly it is equally rude on my part, but gets me the quiet and calm I want for the few hours of flying...).

 

The romantic flying years celebrated in the TV show PAN AM are long over. But somehow, some way, our society has given way to a whole new world of behavior in airports and on flights that really makes me cringe and if anything causes me "panic attacks" on a full flight it is wondering WHO or WHAT wll be sitting next to me for the net few hours.

[Samai139]

Some very interesting and enlightening posts on this thread. Thanks to all who contributed.

My opinion? Those who cannot fit into a normal airline seat should pay extra or buy a business class seat. Isn't it possible that airlines could have a standard size seat at their terminal and if you can't fit, you pay. It does not have to be in a public place--put it out of sight.

Adrianao raised many concerns or complaints that I share. It isn't only size. I nearly vomited on a flight because the woman next to me was wearing so much of a scent that I could taste it as soon as she sat down. The next 3 1/2 hours were very, very uncomfortable and I couldn't wait to take a shower and eat and drink when I disembarked.

Last thing: the medical problems that occur during long flights should certainly be considered---I suspect that overweight people are more at risk than others, but all passengers who cannot or will not move around on a trans-oceanic flight are at risk.

[justaguy]

Adriano, your comment on the person who wants to tell you their personal history is something I can relate to. What makes someone think I want to hear their medical history. My guess is that what psychologists call stranger value has something to do with it. I always put in ear plugs right after I sit down and have a book handy.

 

Samai, yes on scent. In such close quarters, even a light scent can get to be too much.

[robberbaron4u]

I am sympathetic to your plight; however, "weight" is sometimes a genetic predisposition and cannot be "cured" by conventional treatment. I pray you success in attaining a "better life" in your present regimen. Go for it!

[down_to_business]

I think the burden of this should fall on the airlines. They are the ones that continually are shrinking the seat sizes even though the population's waists are expanding just to pack in as many as they can. I also agree its not fair to inconvenience other passengers who have some other person 'spill over' in their seating area. IMO it is equally annoying to be seated near a crying baby as it is to be sat next to a plus sized person. There are a lot of other things that make flying uncomfortable as well.

 

Perhaps one day there will be an entrepreneur that finds a model to work for a plus size focused airline that can accomodate larger travellers.

 

Southwest airlines does not have first class or business class on any of their flights which is probably why they have the 2 seat when fully booked policy.

[robberbaron4u]

Every seat on SW is "first class", and, on occasion, I have caught the toss of a bag of Cheez-Its from a flight attendant, a superior grade "snack". I have always flown SW on its New Orleans, West Palm Beach and Las Vegas "non-stop" flights, and the company has given consistently good service in getting me to my destination in a timely manner.

[happyguy2]

One of my best friends is quite overweight. He is the nicest, neatest, best dressed guy you could meet. Whenever he travels, which is grequently, he always buys an "extra seat for personal comfort". I happens more often than we think, he says. And not only fat people do it, all sorts of people just want a greater personal zone, especially on long haul flights, he tells me. He says the airline people are always very nice to him and he really enjoys the extra space.

[+ Shoreboy]

I recently flew from Philly to Michigan which involved a very small plane for the last leg of the journey.

 

As we were walking out to board this small plane (had about 10 seats on it) the woman there yelled at me "wait"...so I stopped. She then said "what are you waiting for, come on"...so I moved...she yelled "wait" again...so I stopped...then she yelled again for me to "move".

 

Finally it dawned on both of us at the same time that she meant "weight" and I thought she was telling me to "wait".

 

Even though I am not what you consider heavy, when I told her my weight I fibbed a little and shaved off 15 pounds.

 

When the plane started to rock I thought it was my fault for fibbing.

 

Just a side line to this thread

[Battle]

Hell Yes.

[jimboivyo]

just fly private. bypass this southwest airlines garbage.

[gallahadesquire]

just fly private. bypass this southwest airlines garbage.

 

Ah, a man true to my own heart. I also find it interesting that the non-US based. International airlines do a very good effort towards creature comforts. At JKK, in upper class you can eat at the airport on their dime, have nightcap before the lights are dimmed, sleep for six choirs, deplane, take a shower, have your clothes pressed, and eat breakfast before your departure.

 

But even the seats are much more acceptable. I look at Boeing's mock up for their Dreamliner 787 and then see how ANA actually outfitted it: Not the same. If any domestic airlines outfits the Dreamliner, it will be the NIGHTMARELINER!

[KMEM]

just fly private. bypass this southwest airlines garbage.

 

I assume that you have never been on a CJ1 or the like OR you are VERY average sized. These aircraft are NOT comfortable for anyone that is above average size. Of course, I am very much in favor of private aviation.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[instudiocity]

...and of course those who sit next to you and decide tey want to know your entire personal history -- and share theirs --

I just ask them, "Have you heard the Word of the Lord today?" Not even pentecostals want to sit next to a pentecostal evangelist.

I think the burden of this should fall on the airlines. They are the ones that continually are shrinking the seat sizes even though the population's waists are expanding just to pack in as many as they can.

Actually airliner seats have gotten larger. I've been in a DC-3, a Constellation, a B707 and 'modern' aircraft, the seats are bigger in modern craft. The FAA has raised their average weight from a 170 pound person to an average 200 pound person.

Every seat on SW is "first class", and, on occasion, I have caught the toss of a bag of Cheez-Its

HAHA! And I love their announcement, "Our Smoking Section is out on the wing, If you can light it, you can smoke it!"

I recently flew from Philly to Michigan which involved a very small plane for the last leg of the journey.

A 10 passenger plane is not a small plane. They weren't worried that you weighed too much, but that the weight and balance of the craft would be correct. If you filled a plane with 5 200 pound persons on one side and 5 100 pound persons on the other, the plane wouldn't fly well, straight, level, etc and it would land harder on the heavy side. Balancing smaller aircraft is a issue.

[daviddd49]

I'm a very large fellow. I fit in the seats on most American Airlines flights and can lower the armrests and be "ok." Still, I find it more comfortable, once the plane is aloft, to raise the aisle-side armrest and allow myself a little comfort. I've seen a lot more people doing this, now that they have that ability on most planes. The button to allow the raising the of the aisle-side armrest is often hidden underneath the armrest OR between the armrest and the aisle.

 

This sounds strange, but if I can't get an aisle seat with an aisle-side armrest that goes up, I PREFER to sit in an exit-row seat with the hard-side armrests. Yes, those seats are a fraction of an inch narrower due to the hard-side armrests. BUT, I find that it's more comfortable for me to sit down into those seats and and not have to worry about the size of my leg pushing up the arm-rest between me and my neighbor. That, and the extra space between me and the row in front of me has a MAJOR psychological effect on me ... I feel less claustrophobic in those seats as a result, even though it's a tight squeeze.

 

My biggest problem is the breadth of my shoulders. Yes, I have a fat ass ... but I also have very broad shoulders, hence even if I were my ideal 190 pounds (and, yes, that's what the Doctors tell me I should weigh for my bone-thicnkess, muscle-mass, and 6-1 height) I wouldn't fit in airline seats very well.

 

The past few years I've been ranking high enough with American Airlines (Platinum and Executive Platinum) that 3/4 - 4/5 of my flights have me upgrading to First or Business (depending upon the size/type of the aircraft). This is, of course, ideal.

 

All of that being said, if/when I can't fit into a seat -- and can't merit or buy an upgrade - I DO believe I should be required to purchase an extra seat. Just because I've got wide hips, a fat ass, wide shoulders, that doesn't mean that those seated next to me should have to have me in their seat. Thankfully, on most US flights I can fit in my seat and not take any of my neighbors' ... it's tight, but it's doable.

[KMEM]

I just ask them, "Have you heard the Word of the Lord today?" Not even pentecostals want to sit next to a pentecostal evangelist.

Actually airliner seats have gotten larger. I've been in a DC-3, a Constellation, a B707 and 'modern' aircraft, the seats are bigger in modern craft. The FAA has raised their average weight from a 170 pound person to an average 200 pound person.

HAHA! And I love their announcement, "Our Smoking Section is out on the wing, If you can light it, you can smoke it!"

A 10 passenger plane is not a small plane. They weren't worried that you weighed too much, but that the weight and balance of the craft would be correct. If you filled a plane with 5 200 pound persons on one side and 5 100 pound persons on the other, the plane wouldn't fly well, straight, level, etc and it would land harder on the heavy side. Balancing smaller aircraft is a issue.

 

Actually, the FAA has only raised the average airline passenger to 175 pounds from 170 + 5 pounds in the winter ( for heavier clothes). It is still up to the individual airline for the "size" of the seat and the seat pitch. JAL puts upwards of 500 folks on a 747, something that would be VERY uncomfortable for US citizens.

 

Yes, the weight and balance is important, whether a 747 or Cessna 150, but the lateral balance is generally of lesser importance than the forward and aft center of gravity. Most aircraft are affected by fuel and cargo rather than passengers. Example of a relatively small business turboprop that has 8 seats. The total allowable weight is 9,000 pounds. It has a fuel capacity of 2450 pounds and can carry fuel and pax + cargo of 3450 pounds. That suggests 5 two hundred pound folks with no baggage + full fuel. But 4 couples with 4 two hundred pound men and 4 one hundred fifty pound gals would only total 1400 pounds leaving 1450 pounds for fuel which would be almost 3 hours. Not to have your eyes go MEGO, suffice it to say you have a range of 600 miles with this many folks on board which is a typical trip for business aircraft of this type. Fewer folks, more range.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[jimboivyo]

I assume that you have never been on a CJ1 or the like OR you are VERY average sized. These aircraft are NOT comfortable for anyone that is above average size. Of course, I am very much in favor of private aviation.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

 

 

been on one commercial ERJ in my life and never again.

 

using a hawker 4000 these days. it's no bbj, but it does the job.

[OneFinger]

I'm not only tall (6'5") but I also used to weigh over 300 lbs. Flying has always been miserable for me because my legs don't fit and the seats were never wide enough for my birthing hips.

 

I've recently lost 130 lbs and weigh about 180 lbs. My legs are still a problem but it is so much easier now to fit my birthing hips into the seat. I'm sure my seat mates were uncomfortable when I was at a high weight.

 

In reality, I should have been required to purchase 2 seats. I really didn't fit into 1 seat. But, who should pay for the extra seat and should it be at the full cost?

 

A lot of my travel is in relation to my job. So, should my employer be required to pay for my second seat? I can see where weight could become a factor in the hiring / firing process. I've only worked for one company where they did not discriminate on the basis of weight.

 

And, if I'm required to purchase a 2nd seat at my own cost (not reimbursed by my company), that means my overall compensation is less than my traveling co-workers. I see a lot of business-related issues if airlines started enforcing the 2 seat requirement for obese passengers.

 

Sounds good in theory and something I think we'd all appreciate. But, the practical implementation could be problematic.

[+ deej]

Congrats on your loss! Just out of curiosity, what was the incentive to lose the weight?

 

There will certainly be business issues, but there are already business costs associated with obesity.

 

There are already employers who won't hire smokers, or require existing employees to quit, because they get a cost break on their group health plan. Obesity, as health risks go, is right up there too.

[robberbaron4u]

Ah, me, I long for the days of the SS United States and the "sway of the grand saloon" on the Atlantic voyage; a drawing room compartment on passenger train with a first class lounge and dining car in tow; and, although I do care for "flying" as I view it an unneccessary temptation to the Diety, the Concorde flight from Paris to New York. Above all others, the French knew how to do air travel in an excellent manner.

[EZEtoGRU]

I think the burden of this should fall on the airlines. They are the ones that continually are shrinking the seat sizes even though the population's waists are expanding just to pack in as many as they can.

 

I disagree that airlines should have the burden. Also, it is not true that they have been shrinking the width of the seats. Standard US jet passenger seat width on Boeing and Airbus aircraft have not been made smaller in my lifetime. What they do tend to play with more is the "pitch" which has more to do with legroom but it does not impact the width. One thing that is true however is that regional jets seem to have somewhat smaller seats than what we are used to seeing on larger aircraft. I do think that having airliners install special larger seats for XXL passengers is not realistic as they have no way of knowing how many XXL's there will be for each flight. I think the only solution is having XXL's purchase a second seat. Biggest issue to solve is how to define XXL.

[+ Charlie]

Ah, me, I long for the days of the SS United States and the "sway of the grand saloon" on the Atlantic voyage; a drawing room compartment on passenger train with a first class lounge and dining car in tow; and, although I do care for "flying" as I view it an unneccessary temptation to the Diety, the Concorde flight from Paris to New York. Above all others, the French knew how to do air travel in an excellent manner.

 

When I was a child, a close family friend was the chief engineer for the United States, but I never got to sail on it. Now the hulk is steadily deteriorating at anchor in the Delaware River at South Philadelphia, where I felt depressed every time I drove past it. Periodically, plans are announced to renovate it, but there is no longer a viable market for that sort of trans-Atlantic luxury travel.

[rocky]

OK, now I'm a big rounded man. In the past few years I've purchased two tickets so I don't

inconvenience anyone. I was told by AAA and by USAir and one of my escorts, no don't do

that, but I know I spread between the seats and like to be nice to others.

[+ purplekow]

I disagree that airlines should have the burden. ... I do think that having airliners install special larger seats for XXL passengers is not realistic as they have no way of knowing how many XXL's there will be for each flight. I think the only solution is having XXL's purchase a second seat. Biggest issue to solve is how to define XXL.

 

Airlines estimate the number of seats to be sold on every flight. Based on simple analysis of their passengers, airlines could easily estimate how many larger seats would be needed generally. Right now, airlines do NOTHING to accommodate the largest passengers and by ignoring them, they are ignoring the comfort of all of their passengers. Assuming 2.5% of the population falls into this category, two standard deviations above the mean, a plane carrying 300 people would need one row of seats for larger individuals. That does not seem to be much of a burden to place on an industry that is serving the public. Those seats might need to be more expensive but again with the convoluted pricing of airline tickets, that might be the hardest figure to figure.

i was recently on a flight from Anchorage to NY and I paid $25 extra at the airport in order to have the comfort of the larger seats and extra leg room of the exit aisle. There were six seats there, the other 5 were empty. Most of the the other seats were filled, especially on the Tacoma to NY leg of the trip. So it seems, that the airlines have not trouble charging more for larger seats and they even seemed to leave those seat preferentially open on this flight.

 

So from my point of view, the airlines are ultimately responsible for the comfort of all their patients and they should not as a corporation or an industry have in place discriminatory practices as part of their usual protocol.

[KMEM]

been on one commercial ERJ in my life and never again.

 

using a hawker 4000 these days. it's no bbj, but it does the job.

 

Undoubtedly one reason why Speilberg reputedly didn't like his Global. Nothing like a G550.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[KMEM]

Air New Zealand is currently offering on trans Pacific flights 3 seats in a row for the price of 2.5 which includes a "rest" in order to sort of make the seat into a couch. Two people or two people + a small child might very well enjoy this arrangement. Otherwise the business class seat for one likely would make more economic sense.

 

Best regards,

KMEM