SoCal Fires - Paradise Lost?

[mike carey]

Just now, augustus said:

But doubling the price?  It's unconscionable.  

Indeed, but not everyone appears to have a conscience. Profiteering in the face of tragedy flies in the face of the social contract that helps bind society together. That social contract is evident in the volunteers who have come out to assist the displaced, from individuals to community organisations and NGOs, and most people want governments to play a part in providing assistance. There will always be disagreements about the extent that the social contract should be enforced by law, but prohibiting the unconscionable is one area where there might be some consensus.

[pubic_assistance]

27 minutes ago, augustus said:

But doubling the price?  It's unconscionable in an emergency.

It's gross for sure.

*Bad Karma

*You will have a place in hell reserved for you.

But....

As far as business....it's supply and demand.

@MikeBiDude was kind enough to share the rules on price gouging but I think that's always gonna be pretty subjective. Hotels certainly charge more when supply is limited as does Uber. Is adjusting your price in those cases also "gouging". Where is the line ? I don't think there is one drawn. So tough to prove you've crossed it.

[Lotus-eater]

2 hours ago, Luv2play said:

The fine is only $10,000 ( apart from a penal penalty) and I read of a case in the NYT today where someone jacked the monthly rent on a house in LA from $30,000 to over $50,000 a month as a result of the soaring demand  from people being forced to relocate quickly. Apparently there are many in LA with the resources to pay. 

It's heartwarming to see people having compassion for those who can afford to pay $30,000 per month for rent, and in fact the houses in many of the affected areas were valued at least double the national median of around $400K. One person's mobile home in Pacific Palisades Bowl Mobile Estates was worth $850K. The rents for lots there are only $800-$1400 per month and residents are concerned that the landlord will charge much higher rents or convert it into something else, which the landlord should do regardless because only very rich people can properly afford the risk of living there.

Temporary assistance is all well and good, but sanctimonious invocations of conscience (which is a peculiarly Judeo-Christian concept) don't change the laws of supply and demand. Higher prices are an incentive to consume less and produce more. It would be better to give people cash to help them pay for more expensive housing or move away from SoCal entirely.

Edited January 13 by Lotus-eater

[pubic_assistance]

15 minutes ago, Lotus-eater said:

It would be better to give people cash to help them pay for more expensive housing or move away from SoCal entirely.

If anyone had a drop of common sense (they dont) they would prohibit anyone from rebuilding in these fire-prone areas.

[Lotus-eater]

11 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

If anyone had a drop of common sense (they dont) they would prohibit anyone from rebuilding in these fire-prone areas.

Or allow people to bear and pay for the risks they take instead of behaving like an annoying nanny. There are many other things that are the result of people's choices (e.g., obesity, risky sex, etc.) that cost orders of magnitude more in terms of lives and money.

Edited January 13 by Lotus-eater

[Luv2play]

Gov. Newsom has just signed an executive order waiving all permitting regulations for rebuilding in the damaged zones. This is just the opposite of the Canadian approach of building better in disaster areas. We’ll see how that goes. 

Edited January 13 by Luv2play

[Lotus-eater]

2 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Gov. Newsom has just signed an executive order waiving all permitting regulations for rebuilding in the damaged zones. This is just the opposite of the Canadian approach of building better in disaster areas. We’ll see how that goes. 

Waiving permitting regulations is good. The problem is with the price controls on insurance rates, which are worse with an elected insurance commissioner who buys votes by keeping rates artificially low.

[Luv2play]

The regulations are there for a purpose. By waiving them you are inviting future disasters made worse by corners cut in reconstruction. 

[Lotus-eater]

The regulations being suspended are environmental (which have nothing to do with cutting corners) and those dealing with the building code. Proposals to suspend building code regulations will have to go through several bureaucracies for review, including the Office of the State Fire Marshall. He also suggests that the state legislature "incentivize the incorporation of additional fire hardening measures into rebuilding efforts and enhancements of fire mitigation and fire response capacity within rebuilt areas." So I hardly expect them to go hog wild and be like Texas.

Edited January 13 by Lotus-eater

[+ azdr0710]

 

[+ augustus]

2 hours ago, Lotus-eater said:

Waiving permitting regulations is good. The problem is with the price controls on insurance rates, which are worse with an elected insurance commissioner who buys votes by keeping rates artificially low.

I see what you're saying.  Insurance rates should reflect the TRUE risk and not incentivize poor economic decisions, but what's done is done.  The people whose homes have been destroyed will, for the most part, not get full reimbursement.   And the State's "Fair Plan" insurance cannot pay out what will be needed.  The reserves are too small.  

[CuriousByNature]

6 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Does California also control the cost of dinner at Lawry's.

Last I checked, private property is still private. None of anybody business what you charge. It's always a sellers market in a crisis. Any bad Karma will bite you in the ass separately from unconstitutional emergency declarations.

I don't see any difference between hiking rents during a crisis like this and the illegal profiteering that can happen during times of war.  Nobody should be profiting from the losses of the fire victims.  Be thankful that your structure survived, and live out that gratitude by providing shelter at a fair rate - even if it's below what the current market can bear after such a decrease in available properties.  Treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.

[pubic_assistance]

9 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

I don't see any difference between hiking rents during a crisis like this and the illegal profiteering that can happen during times of war.  Nobody should be profiting from the losses of the fire victims.  Be thankful that your structure survived, and live out that gratitude by providing shelter at a fair rate - even if it's below what the current market can bear after such a decrease in available properties.  Treat others the way you would like to be treated yourself.

Christian Charities operate that way. Business people often don't. The majority are going to charge the maximum amount they can.

[Luv2play]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Christian Charities operate that way. Business people often don't. The majority are going to charge the maximum amount they can.

That’s why government has to step in at times to regulate the market. I know some will say that’s socialism but an unfettered market can in some instances lead to social chaos. 
 

[pubic_assistance]

3 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

That’s why government has to step in at times to regulate the market. I know some will say that’s socialism but an unfettered market can in some instances lead to social chaos. 
 

In some instances. 

Yes.

But if this is MY home, then it's up to ME and nobody else.

This is not the same as a grocery store, health care or a utility. 

[Luv2play]

2 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

In some instances. 

Yes.

But if this is MY home, then it's up to ME and nobody else.

This is not the same as a grocery store, health care or a utility. 

I think where a private residence is being rented out by its owner, it no longer is their “home” in the sense of providing shelter to them. Personal use homes get special tax treatment from governments practically everywhere. For instance here in Canada they are exempt from capital gains taxes. The US has a different type of tax treatment but it is also preferential.

Rental properties are treated differently by governments. We have seen municipalities move recently to control airb&bs to maintain some balance in the rental markets. In extreme cases like referenced above they can also introduce anti gouging measures. 
 

We live in civilized societies and governments sometimes need to enforce rules that go against a free for all in human behavior. 

[pubic_assistance]

23 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

We live in civilized societies and governments sometimes need to enforce rules that go against a free for all in human behavior. 

Again.

I agree in principle.

But one of the major financial successes of the United States is the Government's protection of private property.

You can't seize someone's home and tell them what to do with it unless its:

#1 Brought to the legislature as an overall policy in advance of the seizure

or

# 2 Seized as part of military conflict.

In this case, a private owner has a right to ask any price for their private property, because that's the definition of private property here.

It may be gross to ask a lot more in desperate times, but I am not aware of any laws that prevent a private home owner from deciding what they may rent their property for  (assuming the local laws allow them to rent at all)

 

[GTMike]

On 1/9/2025 at 10:02 PM, mike carey said:

I won't add a moderator's note here, just a post to note that we could pontificate for ever about the long term causes of increased fires in and out of the usual season, and long term state-wide management of water supplies, but the here and now is that there is disaster unfolding in LA, and that, and the recovery from it should be our focus for now.

I appreciate the sentiment and applaud the effort.

But there are some perspectives that might be helpful to provde some context from someone who lives in LA and was in an evacuating warning area.

For anyone who would like some information regarding some Fire related facts in California at the large macro level. Like discussion of budgets, water reserve systems etc.. you can PM if you like and I can provide a link.

Regarding some context specifically to things that happened in Palisades and Eaton Fires specifically there's been ad hoc comments about a range of things and certain elements wanting to take tid bits of information and trying to oversensationalize for specific unrelated cynical purposes.

There's way too many examples to discuss but I'll mention a couple.

1) "Fire Hydrants" had low and little water pressure and/or were dry in some areas. Yes some firefighters commented about that in local news. That was used as outrage. Not saying that it isn't a problem but the initial assertion was that the LA system screwed up.

Fyi, Wildland firefighters don't use Hydrants they use water tenders. The fire hydrants in city infrastructure isn't built to fight fires that large, but yes of course hydrant's water supply is obviously absolutely critical.

But was inconveniently not emphasized (in some quarters) was in that particular situation much of the reason hydrants of the few in question were low for firefighters was from an unusual surge of residents initially trying to hose down properties, at the same time Commercial buildings with smoke detectors their internal systems automatically kicked-in to drench building interiors, coupled with a large swell from residents as they appropriately evacuated, but also turned on gardening sprinkler systems full blast. All totally understandable!

Not assigning blame at all but that contributed to some local fire hydrants "being low pressure" when firefighters were battling.

Just pointing out that many took the low pressure in isolated areas as something representative of grossly negligent all over versus potentially understanding a confluence of other complexities. (And yes personally I have many many friends who lost homes in these and other areas.)

2) I'll also add another example related to the assertion that the City was ill equipped and incompetent by not immediately putting up Airborne helicopter assistance with water drops.

I'll just add for perspective that Firefighters from neighboring areas privately tell people that besides the fact that it was absolutely too dangerous to fly those helicopters in 60mph - 90mph Hurricane gust like winds. (Personal side note, i had significant wind damage to property).

In their professonal opinion not only was it absolutely too dangerous, it wouldn't have been in any way effective regardless that first night.

They gave this example;

a) Imagine trying to direct your piss onto a specific object on the ground.

b) Now add that your pissing out of a window more than two stories up.

c) Now add that the window you're pissing out of is moving in 3 dimensions upwards, downwards, laterally and diagonally.

d) Now add this is all being done in ~80mph winds.

Have you ever spat outside your window when driving fast down the freeway? Did it hit the ground intact?

It would have been as they said "pissing in the wind". 

Now yes let's focus on recovery.

 

[CuriousByNature]

4 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

In some instances. 

Yes.

But if this is MY home, then it's up to ME and nobody else.

This is not the same as a grocery store, health care or a utility. 

And nobody is forcing you to rent out your home.  It isn't as if the officials are saying, "Pubic Assistance, you MUST provide shelter to the victims of the fire, and at no more than 10% above market rates."   But if someone WANTS to rent out space, they don't need to be a greedy dick about it.

Edited January 13 by CuriousByNature

[Luv2play]

It hasn’t attracted much comment in this thread but one aspect of the firefighting is the toll it takes on the firefighters involved in the fight. Obviously in a fire of this scale and duration, many reinforcements have been deployed both from other American jurisdictions and those helping out from other countries, including Mexico, Canada and Australia. Even prisoners are getting involved from local prisons. 

There is an informal international fraternity of firefighters and it is gratifying to see it on display in L.A. A key factor is the need for firefighters to get enough rest to be effective over the longer haul and outside assistance is what helps that  to be accomplished. 

 

[+ sniper]

On 1/12/2025 at 7:38 PM, Luv2play said:

Gov. Newsom has just signed an executive order waiving all permitting regulations for rebuilding in the damaged zones. This is just the opposite of the Canadian approach of building better in disaster areas. We’ll see how that goes. 

If it were hurricanes I'd share your concern. But the reality is wildfires are such that better construction doesn't do as much as you'd think. The state recently mandated insurance credits for wildfire mitigation features and the industry's best estimates of how much they could reduce rates was limited. Now shitty construction makes for other problems, but if a wall of fire comes through your neighborhood....nothing is saving that house

 

Edited January 16 by sniper

[marylander1940]

 

 

[marylander1940]

On 1/9/2025 at 1:05 AM, BuffaloKyle said:

Thoughts and prayers to all the forum members and providers who live in southern California!

and money! 

[marylander1940]

On 1/9/2025 at 7:44 PM, Vegas_Millennial said:

Considering that southern California gets much of its water from northern California via the California Aquaduct, it is very appropriate to consider the total state population numbers.  More demand on the water system in the northern part of the state affects the southern part, and vice versa.

We should also consider why having a large city like Vegas in the middle of the desert taking so much water from the entire region. 

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

9 hours ago, marylander1940 said:

We should also consider why having a large city like Vegas in the middle of the desert taking so much water from the entire region. 

Thank you for your concern.  Las Vegas is the model for water efficiency in the desert.  Las Vegas recycles 100% of its water used indoors, and has banned all existing non-functional turf and septic systems effective 2028 as well as mandated new evaporative cooling technology to eliminate water lost to evaporation in the air conditioning process.  Las Vegas uses a fraction of the water per person that Los Angeles uses.   The Southern Nevada Water Authority has reached out extensively to California to encourage them to be as efficient with water as Las Vegas has been.  If Los Angeles used as little water per person as Las Vegas uses, water availability wouldn't be an issue in Los Angeles at the moment.