Sao Paulo, almost unrecognizable compared to prior to pandemic.

[coriolis888]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

You would think that was the case...but we were walking in broad daylight in Leblon..not far from all the luxury boutiques. The kid shot his gun in the air with reckless abandon and everyone just ran into the surrounding buildings and closed the door as if this was a familiar routine.

Statistics, statistics and more statistics. 

Unusual things happen.  It is part of a small statistic of tourists getting robbed in Brazil.  On the other hand, how many tourists visit Brazil without any robberies or issues.  

Like I said, it was just the "luck of the draw" for you.  

[sydneyboy]

I was mugged on my first visit to Rio in 2005. Almost in front of the Copacabana Palace at about 7 in the evening barely dark. They were 3 thugs came from nowhere pulled me between cars parked at right angles to the kerb, 2 went through my pockets while the other had a semi knife neatly wrapped around my throat. A number of bystanders were only metres away watching like stuffed dummies. 
 

I have been back to Brazil 8 times a little wiser. Let there be no doubt Brazil has a crime problem.
 

 

[pubic_assistance]

4 hours ago, sydneyboy said:

Let there be no doubt Brazil has a crime problem.

Most everyone I know who's been to Rio, has a story like that.

I used to think it was just them being careless or flashing expensive jewelry but when I was attacked, it became clear, that merely being American was justification to be robbed. 

I am well traveled and know better than to dress up and wear jewelry, watches and my wife only carries a cheap little bag. In spite of that we were targeted anyway. Brazen daylight robbery in a high end neighborhood. It's little wonder every building in Rio has gigantic THICK iron bars over their windows and doors ! 

I was most disappointed in that everyone in the neighborhood ducked inside when they heard the gun, and not a single person came over to help pick up my wife from the pavement after the little favela boys sped off on their bikes. I thought that was actually the most bizarre issue with the event. No one offered to help even after the culprits were gone.

[sydneyboy]

6 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Most everyone I know who's been to Rio, has a story like that.

I used to think it was just them being careless or flashing expensive jewelry but when I was attacked, it became clear, that merely being American was justification to be robbed. 

I am well traveled and know better than to dress up and wear jewelry, watches and my wife only carries a cheap little bag. In spite of that we were targeted anyway. Brazen daylight robbery in a high end neighborhood. It's little wonder every building in Rio has gigantic THICK iron bars over their windows and doors ! 

I was most disappointed in that everyone in the neighborhood ducked inside when they heard the gun, and not a single person came over to help pick up my wife from the pavement after the little favela boys sped off on their bikes. I thought that was actually the most bizarre issue with the event. No one offered to help even after the culprits were gone.

How right you are! When my attackers fled the on lookers did nothing to offer assistance. An American gent came to my aid. He saw me from a distance between the parked cars and realised what had happened. He told me that he lived in Rio and preceding months he had been robbed 3 times the last by an assailant carrying a gun. I pointed to the on lookers standing and staring liked stuffed dummies and his exact words were “sir, they won’t help, they won’t help.”

[+ Lucky]

Knock on wood...I have been to Brazil 6 times without incident.

But poverty is worse after the pandemic so maybe more crime.

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

But poverty is worse after the pandemic so maybe more crime.

My incident occurred years ago. All my friends have been robbed, some violently in Rio and all prior to 2010. I don't know anyone who goes to Rio anymore. It's just too dangerous no matter how savvy you are. I navigated NYC in the late 80s crack epidemic better.

[MscleLovr]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:48 PM, pubic_assistance said:

most disappointed in that everyone in the neighborhood ducked inside when they heard the gun, and not a single person came over to help….No one offered to help even after the culprits were gone.

Just an aside but I had the same experience in a very smart part of Buenos Aires.
 

It was on a busy street just before 1pm when I intervened in a street robbery of an old woman. Some people on the street watched while I tackled the robber, but many others went inside buildings where they and the porters continued to watch from indoors. No-one called the police or offered help afterwards. 

[musclestuduws]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:48 PM, Marc in Calif said:

I hate the guy as much as anyone else. But I think that everyone should read up on how his stance on these issues changed in the past several years. And he hasn't been in Brazil since December 30, 2022. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jair_Bolsonaro -- under the heading Views on homosexuality you'll find some interesting details you didn't know before. As far as I can tell, the Brazilian government never made new anti-gay policies during his entire presidency. Maybe others can comment on that. 

So I don't think any gay people "feared" him or his policies.
 

You are free to think what you like but I don’t think Wikipedia is a reliable source on these matters as supporters of Bolsonaro probably intervened in the editing of that entry.  I know several gay activists and professors in gender studies who lived in Brazil under Bolsonaro so I know what I’m talking about. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by musclestuduws

[sydneyboy]

On 1/22/2023 at 2:31 PM, pubic_assistance said:

You would think that was the case...but we were walking in broad daylight in Leblon..not far from all the luxury boutiques. The kid shot his gun in the air with reckless abandon and everyone just ran into the surrounding buildings and closed the door as if this was a familiar routine.

This would have been a terrifying experience. I have reported my mugging on a few websites trying to ensure that people benefit from my experience and take precautions. The reaction has ranged from appreciation through to making light of the experience (“it can happen anywhere”) and a few who  have accused me of making the whole thing up. 
 

Brazil has a crime problem. Be very cautious at all times.

[Medin]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:56 PM, Lucky said:

Knock on wood...I have been to Brazil 6 times without incident.

But poverty is worse after the pandemic so maybe more crime.

Same here.  I've been to Brazil probably a dozen times (most of those to Rio) and never had an incident....but all those visits were pre-pandemic so it sounds like it's gotten a lot worse.   

[Marc in Calif]

2 hours ago, musclestuduws said:

You are free to think what you like but I don’t think Wikipedia is a reliable source on these matters as supporters of Bolsonaro probably intervened in the editing of that entry.  I know several gay activists and professors in gender studies who lived in Brazil under Bolsonaro so I know what I’m talking about. 

Personal anecdotes aren't verified evidence. 

If you actually read the Wikipedia article, you'll find that it quotes Bolsonaro's exact words about "homosexuals." It doesn't rely on any analysis or personal stories from "Bolsonaro supporters."

In fact, the majority of the article's sources are actually quite critical of Bolsonaro. And the word "fascist" appears numerous times.

But you still haven't provided details about Bolsonaro's specifically anti-gay policies or practices that caused so many people to cower in fear. Were there raids on gay venues? Attacks on people? Bullying in Bolsonaro's speeches or in his government's statements or policies? I'd like to know about them.

When Bolsonaro became president in 2019, he disbanded Lula's National Council to Combat Discrimination and Promote the Rights of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Travestis and Transsexuals. What else can you think of that caused gay people to be afraid for their lives? Discrimination against LGBTQ communities in Brazil LONG PRECEDED the advent of Bolsonaro. 

[sydneyboy]

2 hours ago, Medin said:

Same here.  I've been to Brazil probably a dozen times (most of those to Rio) and never had an incident....but all those visits were pre-pandemic so it sounds like it's gotten a lot worse.   

My mugging was in 2005. Let’s say it obviously hasn’t got better.

[pubic_assistance]

11 hours ago, sydneyboy said:

My mugging was in 2005. Let’s say it obviously hasn’t got better.

Mine was around 2010. I've heard nothing but mugging stories from everyone who's been to Rio since then.

 

[musclestuduws]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:52 PM, Marc in Calif said:

Personal anecdotes aren't verified evidence. 

If you actually read the Wikipedia article, you'll find that it quotes Bolsonaro's exact words about "homosexuals." It doesn't rely on any analysis or personal stories from "Bolsonaro supporters."

In fact, the majority of the article's sources are actually quite critical of Bolsonaro. And the word "fascist" appears numerous times.

But you still haven't provided details about Bolsonaro's specifically anti-gay policies or practices that caused so many people to cower in fear. Were there raids on gay venues? Attacks on people? Bullying in Bolsonaro's speeches or in his government's statements or policies? I'd like to know about them.

When Bolsonaro became president in 2019, he disbanded Lula's National Council to Combat Discrimination and Promote the Rights of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Travestis and Transsexuals. What else can you think of that caused gay people to be afraid for their lives? Discrimination against LGBTQ communities in Brazil LONG PRECEDED the advent of Bolsonaro. 

Sorry but I find laughable that your main source on this issue is a Wikipedia entry and that you would question me based on that. Smart and genuinely  concerned  people would instead admit their ignorance and ask questions to find out more rather than attacking someone “ad hominem.” Anyway, I guess that’s your modus operandi on this website from what I’ve seen elsewhere. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as Alexander Pope said. My sources are not anecdotal, I happen to be friends with scholars at top Brazilian universities who publish academic articles, books, and well-researched reports on these issues. I also know gay activists who have been fighting against discrimination in Brazil for decades. Several gay political leaders and activists were killed during the Bolsonaro administration without any serious investigation from the authorities. Many more killings of trans people have gone unreported on the media. Here is just a sample of the many articles on the subject available online. In  English. I have several academic articles on file myself. There are tons more if one does a little research, which you could have done yourself.  Of course, a lot more sources and reports are in Portuguese. But just the sample included here paints a pretty devastating  picture. Anyway I’ve spent too much time already on this so it’s up to you now to be willing to be enlightened by the research. For instance, a damning report from the University of Alabama Institute for Human Rights shows that even the passing of legislation that expanded right for LGBTQ+ people, had not actual effects on their lives or even less in restraining the violence and rising number of hate crimes. It is a gross mistake to equate the passing of legislation with the reality of people on the streets. 

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/brazil-continues-be-country-largest-number-trans-people-killed

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-lgbt-murders-trfn/reported-murders-suicides-of-trans-people-soar-in-brazil-idUSKBN25Z31O

https://www.openlynews.com/i/?id=765ed1d7-c620-48a8-ab60-2e04e16a3971

https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/05/12/i-became-scared-was-their-goal/efforts-ban-gender-and-sexuality-education-brazil

https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/18/brazil-trans-murders-jair-bolsonaro-175-people-murdered-2020-antra/

https://theconversation.com/amp/how-lgbtq-people-are-resisting-bolsonaros-brazil-through-art-115072

https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2022/09/30/lgbtq-rights-in-brazil/

Edited January 31, 2023 by musclestuduws

[Marc in Calif]

1 hour ago, musclestuduws said:

Here is just a sample of the many articles on the subject available online. In  English. I have several academic articles on file myself. There are tons more if one does a little research, which you could have done yourself.  Of course, a lot more sources and reports are in Portuguese. But just the sample included here paints a pretty devastating  picture. Anyway I’ve spent too much time already on this so it’s up to you now to be willing to be enlightened by the research. 

I find it laughable that, with all of those "sources," you can't point to very many explicit policies passed under Bolsonaro's administration. Yes, gay people "feared" what he might do, just as they "feared" what Drumpf and his minions might do in the United States and what far-right conservatives might do starting in 2023.. 

What they fear in both countries is simply the homophobia expressed by right-wing phobes against LGBTQ communities. That's serious enough.

But if we look at actual raids, arrests, violence, and even killing, the data for the Bolsonaro years doesn't show anything more than the homophobia itself. It shows no actual repression, oppression, or resulting violence.

I repeat: Discrimination against LGBTQ communities in Brazil LONG PRECEDED the advent of Bolsonaro. 

Here's just one data sample dealing with killings of trans people in Brazil over a 13-year period that predates the rise of Bolsonaro to power:

                                  2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021  2022     Total

Brasil                           57     68      99   103   126    104   132  113   136   175   168   115   157   125     96       1774

So we can conclude that trans people were the subjects of trans/queer-phobic lethal violence in numbers that didn't see a huge increase under Bolsonaro. They in fact decreased after 2020. 

And for all LGBTQ people, the numbers are similar. Brazil had more lethal violence against those communities before the Bolsonaro years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/799411/lgbt-people-violent-deaths-brazil/

Edited January 31, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[LFABWC]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:11 AM, pubic_assistance said:

Are we in the politics forum ?

🤣....victim mentality???

 

[coriolis888]

2 hours ago, LFABWC said:

🤣....victim mentality???

 

Speaking of mugging victims and Brazil - 

I have visited Brazil more than one hundred times without any muggings or even threats of muggings.

Luck must be on my side.  Caution is USUALLY the key but luck is the main element.  

[+ Lucky]

On 1/30/2023 at 5:32 AM, pubic_assistance said:

Mine was around 2010. I've heard nothing but mugging stories from everyone who's been to Rio since then.

 

You like these grand statements, but this one is simply not true. I'm an example.

[BSR]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:21 PM, musclestuduws said:

Sorry but I find laughable that your main source on this issue is a Wikipedia entry and that you would question me based on that. Smart and genuinely  concerned  people would instead admit their ignorance and ask questions to find out more rather than attacking someone “ad hominem.” Anyway, I guess that’s your modus operandi on this website from what I’ve seen elsewhere. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as Alexander Pope said. My sources are not anecdotal, I happen to be friends with scholars at top Brazilian universities who publish academic articles, books, and well-researched reports on these issues. I also know gay activists who have been fighting against discrimination in Brazil for decades. Several gay political leaders and activists were killed during the Bolsonaro administration without any serious investigation from the authorities. Many more killings of trans people have gone unreported on the media. Here is just a sample of the many articles on the subject available online. In  English. I have several academic articles on file myself. There are tons more if one does a little research, which you could have done yourself.  Of course, a lot more sources and reports are in Portuguese. But just the sample included here paints a pretty devastating  picture. Anyway I’ve spent too much time already on this so it’s up to you now to be willing to be enlightened by the research. For instance, a damning report from the University of Alabama Institute for Human Rights shows that even the passing of legislation that expanded right for LGBTQ+ people, had not actual effects on their lives or even less in restraining the violence and rising number of hate crimes. It is a gross mistake to equate the passing of legislation with the reality of people on the streets. 

https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/brazil-continues-be-country-largest-number-trans-people-killed

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-lgbt-murders-trfn/reported-murders-suicides-of-trans-people-soar-in-brazil-idUSKBN25Z31O

https://www.openlynews.com/i/?id=765ed1d7-c620-48a8-ab60-2e04e16a3971

https://www.hrw.org/report/2022/05/12/i-became-scared-was-their-goal/efforts-ban-gender-and-sexuality-education-brazil

https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/02/18/brazil-trans-murders-jair-bolsonaro-175-people-murdered-2020-antra/

https://theconversation.com/amp/how-lgbtq-people-are-resisting-bolsonaros-brazil-through-art-115072

https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2022/09/30/lgbtq-rights-in-brazil/

Gay activists and gender studies professors drive an agenda in the US, and obviously the same is true in Brazil.  Their very livelihoods, their means of paying their mortgages and feeding their families, depend on pushing a specific narrative.

Fair-minded people see this narrative with some skepticism.  But members of the choir embrace this narrative as gospel.

[SouthOfTheBorder]

Rio vs São Paulo 

I’d still visit SP, but no more Rio unfortunately.  
Visiting the well-known tourist zones (Copacabana, Ipanema, Leblon & adjacent) in Rio is going into an extremely small geographic area populated by wealthy tourists and surrounded by favelas with people in extreme poverty/desperation. Of course, there’s going to be rampant crimes against tourists.  It’s been this way for years, although it does seem to be getting worse. It’s possible to visit Rio and not be a victim, but not much fun to be on vacation and in a state of hyper-vigilance at all times.

By contrast, SP is not a city known for tourists and there is no similar small zone of wealthy tourists that is surrounded by favelas.  It doesn’t exist that way in SP.  So, the potential crime against tourists doesn’t compare, although crime obviously does happen there but in larger context of street crime in general. 
Additionally, Brazilian friends have explained that in SP, the drug trade is largely controlled by one gang/cartel where in Rio its urban warfare among many gangs - thus the extreme violence in Rio.  And the police in Rio are known to be corrupt and dangerous themselves, where in SP it’s a much more professional law enforcement situation.

As for the OPs comments re; São Paulo - perhaps San Francisco, Los Angeles and NYC should be viewed in the same context ?  None of those cities is the same as pre-pandemic and it’s a complicated discussion that goes way beyond one or two simple explanations. Cities tend to be dynamic & fluid - what we see now is not how it will be in 5 years time.  

[sydneyboy]

18 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Rio vs São Paulo 

I’d still visit SP, but no more Rio unfortunately.  
Visiting the well-known tourist zones (Copacabana, Ipanema, Leblon & adjacent) in Rio is going into an extremely small geographic area populated by wealthy tourists and surrounded by favelas with people in extreme poverty/desperation. Of course, there’s going to be rampant crimes against tourists.  It’s been this way for years, although it does seem to be getting worse. It’s possible to visit Rio and not be a victim, but not much fun to be on vacation and in a state of hyper-vigilance at all times.

By contrast, SP is not a city known for tourists and there is no similar small zone of wealthy tourists that is surrounded by favelas.  It doesn’t exist that way in SP.  So, the potential crime against tourists doesn’t compare, although crime obviously does happen there but in larger context of street crime in general. 
Additionally, Brazilian friends have explained that in SP, the drug trade is largely controlled by one gang/cartel where in Rio its urban warfare among many gangs - thus the extreme violence in Rio.  And the police in Rio are known to be corrupt and dangerous themselves, where in SP it’s a much more professional law enforcement situation.

As for the OPs comments re; São Paulo - perhaps San Francisco, Los Angeles and NYC should be viewed in the same context ?  None of those cities is the same as pre-pandemic and it’s a complicated discussion that goes way beyond one or two simple explanations. Cities tend to be dynamic & fluid - what we see now is not how it will be in 5 years time.  

My sentiments exactly.

[SirBillybob]

On 5/21/2023 at 9:42 AM, SouthOfTheBorder said:

Rio vs São Paulo 

I’d still visit SP, but no more Rio unfortunately.  
Visiting the well-known tourist zones (Copacabana, Ipanema, Leblon & adjacent) in Rio is going into an extremely small geographic area populated by wealthy tourists and surrounded by favelas with people in extreme poverty/desperation. Of course, there’s going to be rampant crimes against tourists.  It’s been this way for years, although it does seem to be getting worse. It’s possible to visit Rio and not be a victim, but not much fun to be on vacation and in a state of hyper-vigilance at all times.

By contrast, SP is not a city known for tourists and there is no similar small zone of wealthy tourists that is surrounded by favelas.  It doesn’t exist that way in SP.  So, the potential crime against tourists doesn’t compare, although crime obviously does happen there but in larger context of street crime in general. 
Additionally, Brazilian friends have explained that in SP, the drug trade is largely controlled by one gang/cartel where in Rio its urban warfare among many gangs - thus the extreme violence in Rio.  And the police in Rio are known to be corrupt and dangerous themselves, where in SP it’s a much more professional law enforcement situation.

As for the OPs comments re; São Paulo - perhaps San Francisco, Los Angeles and NYC should be viewed in the same context ?  None of those cities is the same as pre-pandemic and it’s a complicated discussion that goes way beyond one or two simple explanations. Cities tend to be dynamic & fluid - what we see now is not how it will be in 5 years time.  

You make it seem that as a visitor to Rio de Janeiro you have no choice of area for accommodations, as if the only option is a circumscribed regional zone where opportunistic crime is more likely to prevail due to the neighbourhood mapping you describe.

I visit Rio weeks at a time and stay in an area that has a few decent hotels, private home platform alternatives, and great neighbourhood amenities including Metro stations and a rambling oceanside boardwalk loaded with fitness folks of all ages shapes sizes.

You would rarely see another tourist, most hotel guests are Brazilian, and the main street sidewalks are teeming with locals, many of them retirees, going about their day. It’s easy to fit in visually. The only thing that would signify being a visitor would be your interaction with lodgings hosts, harmless waiters, and market cashiers.

I don’t even go down to Copacabana and Ipanema any more, having already seen what I find worthwhile and now lacks the novelty that impels a first time visitor to take in that area.

Edited May 22, 2023 by SirBillybob

[SouthOfTheBorder]

1 hour ago, SirBillybob said:

You would rarely see another tourist

exactly - I was describing where vast majority of foreign visitors stay in Rio.  
the other Rio Zona Sul neighborhoods may offer relief from the crush of foreign tourists to seasoned visitors, however, a solitary gringo in the other areas may stick out like a sore thumb. whatever works if you don’t mind being a perpetual target

the overall point was that SP has much less crime directed at tourists due to the geography of the city.  much easier to blend in to SPs many fine hotel’s & restaurants 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by SouthOfTheBorder

[SirBillybob]

25 minutes ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

exactly - I was describing where vast majority of foreign visitors stay in Rio.  
the other Rio Zona Sul neighborhoods may offer relief from the crush of foreign tourists to seasoned visitors, however, a solitary gringo in the other areas may stick out like a sore thumb. whatever works if you don’t mind being a perpetual target

the overall point was that SP has much less crime directed at tourists due to the geography of the city.  much easier to blend in to SPs many fine hotel’s & restaurants 

 

 

Yeah I’ve stayed in 5 very distinct zones in São Paulo. None seem “touristy”, including my latest lodgings at Renaissance steps from Paulista. Even their gym is populated by locals’ prerogative for membership. My point would be that Rio might be seen as a relatively essentialist destination for a visit to Brazil, but curated tours or the (overrated) signature draw of typical tourist areas obscures the reality that there are nice viable departures from that playbook.

What I took from your earlier post is that you seemed to imply your return to Rio would be unlikely. I wasn’t sure if you were dissuading others. I think that actually you know the options. However much such options are shared there may be little effect on new visitors’ decisions. I should add that as a novice visitor without extraordinary travel skills I stayed in the sub-south area and never  lodged south of Flamengo over several years; that may be comparatively unique. 

[SouthOfTheBorder]

43 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

What I took from your earlier post is that you seemed to imply your return to Rio would be unlikely. I wasn’t sure if you were dissuading others

correct - doubtful I will go back to Rio. Its natural beauty is unrivaled, yet I no longer have the tolerance for that type of urban danger. 

Not dissuading others from the Rio adventure, I think it helps to have realistic expectations and understand other less risky Brazil options.