Will most Americans be gay by the turn of the next century?

[mike carey]

1 minute ago, pubic_assistance said:

That may be used as some "code" for conservatives to turn their nose up at non-traditional relationships ...but I was the one who used the term and I am far from conventional. My history of adult relationships was as open minded and unconventional as you might get. So it was hardly stated with any bigotry.

I am making a point that is hard for many  homosexuals to swallow ( pun intended)...in that many of us DO indeed choose our pathway in lifestyle when we aren't so solidly predisposed in our sexual attractions to one gender or another. "Born this way" works for some homosexuals but not everyone on the LGBT spectrum .

I know that you used the term in here, but you are far from the first, or the only person to use it. Don't assume that I was using the term in respect of your comments, I was not, I was using it about its use more generally.

I specifically acknowledged that people choose a 'lifestyle' that may be at odds with their Kinsey scale position. Everyone is 'born this way', and I was born gay and am gay in my identification. Not everyone lives the way they were 'born', and none of us should care if they do or not. How you were born and how you choose to live should be, and is, of no concern to me or anyone else.

[pubic_assistance]

28 minutes ago, mike carey said:

people choose a 'lifestyle' that may be at odds with their Kinsey scale position. Everyone is 'born this way', and I was born gay and am gay in my identification.

And some choose a lifestyle that best suits their Kinsey scale position.

People are born on a sexual spectrum....and most find partnerships on one end or the other and some go back and forth trying to decide which suits them best. ( See Hollywood's various mood-changing Lesbians )

[marylander1940]

On 2/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, pubic_assistance said:

All the Queen's offspring had their fuckable years. Edward was my favorite and was in-fact, quite sexually active in his 20s with military men and other rough trade. Eventually married and produced children...but had his fun. No rumors of further mano-a-mano after marriage ..but one wonders.

Old habits die hard.

Hopefully he's not going for underage sexual partners like his brother Andrew. He's certainly discreet!

 

[xyz48B]

I don’t understand…

Why is “born this way” such a terrible thing for sexual orientation?

We can choose how you live with your orientation, but you can’t choose your orientation. It can be a combo (and is) a combo of nurture and nature, but orientation is something you’re “given.” The lifestyle you choose can and will be in light if that orientation.

You can be gay and choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle…

Sexual orientation and lifestyle are different.

[xyz48B]

2 hours ago, mike carey said:

Don't assume that I was using the term in respect of your comments

[Guest]

3 hours ago, mike carey said:

..Don't assume that I was using the term in respect of your comments...

There went PA again, reacting in a defensive, almost insecure manner. It just makes one even more suspicious that he was, indeed, knowingly using the term in its well-known and generally accepted pejorative sense. 

[xyz48B]

38 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

There went PA again, reacting in a defensive, almost insecure manner. It just makes one even more suspicious that he was, indeed, knowingly using the term in its well-known and generally accepted pejorative sense. 

Some people like to redefine the terms after they’ve started discussing. They don’t like how their comments were interpreted, or what they actually mean, but it wasn’t their fault. We and our feeble brains were the wrong ones. There are certain members of this forum who (dys)function according to that MO.

[pubic_assistance]

18 hours ago, Unicorn said:

It just makes one even more suspicious

Well...that's on YOU.

I've explained myself .

 

[Rudynate]

On 2/28/2022 at 7:21 AM, pubic_assistance said:

That may be used as some "code" for conservatives to turn their nose up at non-traditional relationships ...but I was the one who used the term and I am far from conventional. My history of adult relationships was as open minded and unconventional as you might get. So it was hardly stated with any bigotry.

I am making a point that is hard for many  homosexuals to swallow ( pun intended)...that many of us DO indeed choose our pathway in lifestyle when we aren't so solidly predisposed in our sexual attractions to one gender or another. "Born this way" works for some homosexuals but not everyone on the LGBT spectrum .

Why doesn't it work for you that you were "born this way?"  Your sexual orientation, or lack thereof, seems as hard-wired as being exclusively gay or straight does.  One of the dictates of your trait is that you can form erotic attachments with either sex.  Of course, it is very constructive to experience it as a freedom, but it's not the only way of seeing it.  Someone might look at you and say "That poor guy, he will never know the joy of a deep sexual/emotional connection with someone of his own sex. Or, "that poor guy, he is constantly torn between his deep love for his wife and family and that vexatious same-sex attraction that he can't seem to shake."

[+ José Soplanucas]

39 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Someone might look at you and say "That poor guy, he will never know the joy of a deep sexual/emotional connection with someone of his own sex. Or, "that poor guy, he is constantly torn between his deep love for his wife and family and that vexatious same-sex attraction that he can't seem to shake."

And why anyone would care about such shortsighted and stupid comments?

[pubic_assistance]

47 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Why doesn't it work for you that you were "born this way?"

 The point wasn't about it not working for ME.
I was saying "born this way" is not the case for MANY people.

Gay men and women are very caught up in this idea that sexuality is congenital and this makes them very dismissive of those of us who aren't so inclined toward an absolute preference toward one gender or another.

For my part, I've had relationships with both men and women over the years...so my choice in a long term partner was made after much experimenting. Haven't missed out on anything. I lived in NYC in the 90's. I've been places and seen things other people only fantasize about.

 

[xyz48B]

I think extrapolating to the whole from individual incidents is a bit…dangerous. I totally accept bisexuality as a legitimate thing. In fact, I’d say people are born that way!

So some gay folks think bisexuality isn’t real? Okay. Some straight people think that homosexuality isn’t real. It even sounds like some bi folks in this very forum are saying that neither heterosexuality or homosexuality is real. Guess what – saying it’s not real doesn’t make it less real. It just makes the person saying it sound ignorant and close-minded…

[Guest]

8 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

...Gay men and women are very caught up in this idea that sexuality is congenital and this makes them very dismissive of those of us who aren't so inclined toward an absolute preference toward one gender or another.... I've been places and seen things other people only fantasize about.

???It doesn't follow that because a person's sexual orientation is usually determined by the time he's born that a person can't be bisexual. No reason a person can't be born bisexual. Your last sentence reminds me of a certain song... 😄

 

"Ooh, I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece
When I sipped champagne on a yacht
I moved like Harlow in Monte Carlo
And showed them what I've got
I've been undressed by kings
And I've seen some things that a woman ain't s'posed to see
I've been to paradise but I've never been to me..."🎵

Edited March 3, 2022 by Unicorn

[pubic_assistance]

11 hours ago, xyz48B said:

I think extrapolating to the whole from individual incidents is a bit…dangerous.

Correct.

That's why I never do that .

 

[pubic_assistance]

6 hours ago, Unicorn said:

...a person's sexual orientation is usually determined by the time he's born.

Well...no. That's still a theory not a scientific fact.

That is the subject of my conversation.

I am saying the prevalence of bisexuality and the flexibility of people ...especially younger people shows that "born this way" is probably not accurate.

 

[+ Tygerscent]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, pubic_assistance said:

Absolutely. That's an excellent point. Culturally some parts of the US were behind others. Would you mind sharing ( out of curiosity ) where YOU grew up, Tygerscent ?  Your personal story reeks of late 60's Bay Area culture...so curious when and where your lovely childhood took place.  Thanks

I grew up in Wisconsin~ The village of Hales Corners~ 
 It’s interesting that you connect me with the bay area… The first time I was ever there was in 1996 on my way to medical convention~ I actually got stuck in San Francisco but, was on my way to a different city… it’s a long story. (As many of mine are~😂🤣😂).
 I’ve been to San Francisco many times during the course of my porn and escorting career… Outside of the porn, I’ve actually done very little Escorting there because culturally and sexually I’m very different than the locals~ I go there to visit someone I dated and remain friends with~
 If it were not for this man, I would never go to San Francisco except I do have a spot at the Columberium there… it’s for some of my mom’s ashes and some family history~  
 

[xyz48B]

2 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I am saying the prevalence of bisexuality and the flexibility of people ...especially younger people shows that "born this way" is probably not accurate.

Meh. That’s conjecture.

In the previous line you said it’s not scientific fact, regarding the timing sexuality is determined. Then on its heels you go with a “probably,” regarding whether bisexuality somehow invalidates homosexuality or heterosexuality.

What stats and science supports that “probably?”

A better question is: what is at stake to say that sexuality is, at least to a degree, biologically determined? Why is that a problem? Personally…not based on presumptions and presuppositions about “people’s” motivations? Why is “born this way” personally an issue?

[+ Tygerscent]

17 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Well...no. That's still a theory not a scientific fact.

That is the subject of my conversation.

I am saying the prevalence of bisexuality and the flexibility of people ...especially younger people shows that "born this way" is probably not accurate.

 

My impression and experience is similar… The majority of my clientele are “straight identifying” with families and kids. They are not immersed in the gay community and they don’t want to have a husband/wife or live their life with a man or another woman necessarily… They love and enjoy their kids and their families but, societal norms and sometimes laws and/or religion don’t allow that personal expression~

  There’s not really always a venue that is acceptable/safe/legal/ for sexually fluid individuals to have buddy sex with a memeber of the same sex .
 Being an openly Sexually fluid people can sometimes be difficult because “straight” people wanna categorize you as “gay” and “gay” people wanna categorize you “gay”…  both sides can find it threatening, intimidating and uncomfortable.
 It’s almost as if the less sexually fluid people  want the fluid person to choose side because it’s important to them somehow, even though it might not be important to the individual they are insisting choose. 
 It can be similar if you have a mixed heritage… I think there’s be a certain percentage of people who end up not fitting into any particular group because they’re neither white, black, asian or Indigenous enough but a combination of those groups.  I have also seen where people have an ethnic look but they were born someplace else and culturally they are very different… If they go back to some country that is clearly part of their ethnic background, their own ethnic group has prejudice and discrimination against them because they’re culturally different.  
  If I put this in the sexual terms… I could suggest example of somebody who may be effeminate or hyper masculine but their gender isn’t what others typically associate with those types of personal characteristics. So, they get labeled and miss classified because the people around them are not willing to view them for who they are as individuals with their own identity, worth and value.  
 It seems like often if you make a choice to sleep with somebody of your own sex and then do that for a while there’s no going back because society generally isn’t easily excepting of that. I know people whose sexual choices have changed throughout their lifetime… Moving from same-sex relationships to other sex relationships.  
 Any number of things can influence that: surgery, a sick or dying spouse, a dead spouse, work, religious affinity, political affinity, simple desire… Meeting somebody who becomes a really great friend and at some point in time maybe you just want to share your affection for the person in a physical way. There’s all kinds of examples.   
  The level of acceptance by any particular community of people who  can identify with multiple groups and be marginalized because, they are still seen as different from all of them… White but, Not white  enough… Black but, not black enough… Cinnamon but, not Cinnamon enough… Indigenous but, not indigenous enough… Yellow but, not yellow enough… Gay but, not gay enough… Straight but, not straight enough… 
 If they claim their own unique identity, it separates them from the very groups that they are actually part of but, not part of enough to be completely excepted… there’s always just enough to make a part of the group but that little something that makes you different and on the fringes. 
 You end up belonging but, not belonging to any number of particular groups.  
 Since I talk to a lot of people who are straight identifying and/or sexually fluid… (as well people who are straight and not sexually fluid…), many have still had sex with members of their own sex at some point in their life.
 Sometimes it is more prevalent in one culture than another and at different points in history but, I think still prevalent over all. It’s something kept private. 
 It may be more accurate to simply say that people are born sexual… They’re born that way.  
 I do understand that the labels were necessary at different points in time in order to protect and make safe the world for people who did not fit the norm for whatever reason. It’s not practical to go into a quart room to present or change a law when the argument becomes: “this group that is identical to all others wants to have the rights, freedoms and safety exactly like this other group of people they are identical to~“ The labels have different intention then~ 
 Nature/nurture is probably closer to a reality then everybody being born a certain way. Most living things are born sexual in one way or another and within some species some individuals are affected by their circumstances and experiences in life and choices that affect how they are sexual~ 

[pubic_assistance]

6 hours ago, Tygerscent said:

Nature/nurture is probably closer to a reality then everybody being born a certain way. Most living things are born sexual in one way or another and within some species some individuals are affected by their circumstances and experiences in life and choices that affect how they are sexual~ 

Very nice explanation Tygerscent.

Unfortunately a lot of gay men live in denial of their subconscious decisions made throughout life in who they find attractive . Somehow the "guilt" of homosexuality goes away when you can claim it wasn't your fault ...you were born that way.

 

[xyz48B]

24 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Unfortunately a lot of gay men live in denial of their subconscious decisions made throughout life in who they find attractive . Somehow the "guilt" of homosexuality goes away when you can claim it wasn't your fault ...you were born that way.

I wish you wouldn’t speak for other people.

[Rudynate]

9 hours ago, Tygerscent said:

 Nature/nurture is probably closer to a reality then everybody being born a certain way. Most living things are born sexual in one way or another and within some species some individuals are affected by their circumstances and experiences in life and choices that affect how they are sexual~ 

Once, a friend was trying to think of a thesis topic for his master program in psych.  Understandably, as a gay man, he wanted to do something around the cause(s) of homosexuality.   To me, studying the "cause" of homosexuality is premised on a homophobic view that homosexuality is "deviant" or "abnormal" and a gay man doing it is a clear-cut case of internalized homophobia.  I pointed out to him that nobody is studying the "cause" of heterosexuality.   He decided to keep looking for a topic.  

[xyz48B]

26 minutes ago, Rudynate said:

Once, a friend was trying to think of a thesis topic for his master program in psych.  Understandably, as a gay man, he wanted to do something around the cause(s) of homosexuality.   To me, studying the "cause" of homosexuality is premised on a homophobic view that homosexuality is "deviant" or "abnormal" and a gay man doing it is a clear-cut case of internalized homophobia.  I pointed out to him that nobody is studying the "cause" of heterosexuality.   He decided to keep looking for a topic.  

Perhaps a reformulation? “What factors contribute to a person’s understanding of their sexuality?”

[+ José Soplanucas]

6 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Very nice explanation Tygerscent.

Unfortunately a lot of gay men live in denial of their subconscious decisions made throughout life in who they find attractive . Somehow the "guilt" of homosexuality goes away when you can claim it wasn't your fault ...you were born that way.

 

I agree in general, but the issue is not only gay men. I think everyone who does not see that we are a social construction built on our biology, is in denial. What is sad in the case of gay people when they do not realize it is that they mirror oppressive structures instead of enjoying a journey of self discovery and self construction. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

3 hours ago, Rudynate said:

Once, a friend was trying to think of a thesis topic for his master program in psych.  Understandably, as a gay man, he wanted to do something around the cause(s) of homosexuality.   To me, studying the "cause" of homosexuality is premised on a homophobic view that homosexuality is "deviant" or "abnormal" and a gay man doing it is a clear-cut case of internalized homophobia.  I pointed out to him that nobody is studying the "cause" of heterosexuality.   He decided to keep looking for a topic.  

100% agreed. But I do not think @Tygerscent is advocating for looking for an explanation or a cause for homosexuality. If I understand what he is saying, he is speaking of how the interactions between our individual biological traits and our particular social context will built how our sexuality is expressed. Rather than an hermeneutic, he is looking for a phenomenology. 

Of course, I may be wrong.

[xyz48B]

11 minutes ago, latbear4blk said:

100% agreed. But I do not think @Tygerscent is advocating for looking for an explanation or a cause for homosexuality. If I understand what he is saying, he is speaking of how the interactions between our individual biological traits and our particular social context will built how our sexuality is expressed. Rather than an hermeneutic, he is looking for a phenomenology. 

Of course, I may be wrong.

Or both nature and nurture.

It’s silly to think it’s all nurture.