Coronavirus and HIV

[+ purplekow]

I have a childhood friend coming to visit today. I have an outdoor front porch where we will be sitting across a table from one another to eat. No common utensils. Social distancing and social discourse and then good bye. No touching. He probably will not go in the house unless it is to use the guest bathroom, which I do not use. He has been in virtual quarantine for weeks and I have not because of my job so most of the risk is his. Neither one of us is sick but of course the is not an assured situation.

Is this risky behavior? Probably so but I believe the risk is minimal and it is the kind of risk we will all be taking when things open up again.

Edited April 19, 2020 by purplekow

[mike carey]

Is this risky behavior? Probably so but I believe the risk is minimal and it is the kind of risk we will all be taking when things open up again.

For you the risk is probably minimal, for him a little higher. As long as you don't hug, it seems to me not to be a great risk.

[+ keroscenefire]

I have a childhood friend coming to visit today. I have an outdoor front porch where we will be sitting across a table from one another to eat. No common utensils. Social distancing and social discourse and then good bye. No touching. He probably will not go in the house unless it is to use the guest bathroom, which I do not use. He has been in virtual quarantine for weeks and I have not because o my job so most of the risk is his. Neither one of us is sick but of course the is not an assured situation.

Is this risky behavior? Probably so but I believe the risk is minimal and it is the kind of risk we will all be taking when things open up again.

 

I've done a couple of "social distancing walks" with friends. There are some nice large parks in my neighborhood with pretty wide grassy meadows where we can spread out six-feet and still talk while wearing our masks. It works mostly except we probably have to talk louder than we normally do because of the distance and masks. There is probably some risk, but it is very nice to get out for some exercise and see a friend in person. I think it's nice to be able to have some limited and fairly low-risk social interaction. I think your dinner is fairly similar. Just be careful with cleaning plates and utensils as we know coronavirus can stay on hard surfaces for a couple days. Maybe just use latex gloves and clean them off very well with soap and water. Probably not a bad idea to lysol spray the chair and table around there after too.

[+ bigjoey]

I've done a couple of "social distancing walks" with friends. There are some nice large parks in my neighborhood with pretty wide grassy meadows where we can spread out six-feet and still talk while wearing our masks. It works mostly except we probably have to talk louder than we normally do because of the distance and masks. There is probably some risk, but it is very nice to get out for some exercise and see a friend in person. I think it's nice to be able to have some limited and fairly low-risk social interaction. I think your dinner is fairly similar. Just be careful with cleaning plates and utensils as we know coronavirus can stay on hard surfaces for a couple days. Maybe just use latex gloves and clean them off very well with soap and water. Probably not a bad idea to lysol spray the chair and table around there after too.

 

Paper plates and plastic utensils solve the problem.

[+ nycman]

I would argue that complete isolation is nearly, if not more so, deadly that the virus itself.

Then again, suicide isn’t infectious, so maybe there’s a counter argument to be made.

 

I have mainatianed social interactions with one outside family. They come over for dinner

and vice versa. Their only exposure is my house and my only exposure is them. Is there a risk?

Yes. Life has risks. In this case it’s one I'm willing to take for my own personal sanity.

 

Normally, I would be entertaining 3-4 times a week with various people.

 

To me it’s about “risk reduction”, not some insane absolute.

 

I also fucked men with a condom in the 80’s when I could have abstained completely.

 

Call me a reckless rebel if you wish.

[+ bigjoey]

In the general community, there was a feeling of panic about anything to do with AIDS. At the senior facility where I volunteer, the son of a well know community person applied for admission for skilled nursing. He had been living in NYC, became sick and basically came home to die.

 

The only skilled nursing facility that took AIDS residents kept them in a locked, basement ward. The board was remarkable and voted unanimously to accept the young man. Then something happened we did not foresee: most of the staff was going to walk out; we were unionized and the Union was going to call a strike over endangering the lives of the workers.

 

The staff was about 80% Black. We ran our own in-house laundry, had a kitchen staff and all the aides were low skilled and the black community was our labor source (we had black residents as well). Then a wonderful thing happened, the Reverend Emanuel Cleaver came at the board’s invitation and he spoke to a meeting of the workers. He eloquently talked to the black men and women of their Christian duty. He talked how Jesus ministered to the sick and as Christians, they need to serve all. His words changed the attitude of the workers and they stayed on the job. Our skilled nursing facility became the first to accept AIDS residents who were treated with dignity and loving care.

 

Follow up: today, Reverend Cleaver is Congressperson Cleaver and the head of the Black Caucus.

 

I think what set the stage for his visit was our facility’s reputation. Back in 1955 or 1956, we were Kansas City’s first non-governmental skilled nursing facility to welcome black residents. In a city with segregated housing, schools and businesses, our facility stood out a place where all were welcome with respect and dignity. It was interesting to explain to non-Jewish residents no pork or shellfish would be in the menu and no cheeseburgers? as the facility was kosher.

[+ sniper]

I have a childhood friend coming to visit today. I have an outdoor front porch where we will be sitting across a table from one another to eat. No common utensils. Social distancing and social discourse and then good bye. No touching. He probably will not go in the house unless it is to use the guest bathroom, which I do not use. He has been in virtual quarantine for weeks and I have not because o my job so most of the risk is his. Neither one of us is sick but of course the is not an assured situation.

Is this risky behavior? Probably so but I believe the risk is minimal and it is the kind of risk we will all be taking when things open up again.

I think if what you are planning on doing is risky, there would pretty much be no point in adopting any measures at all and we'd all already have gotten it, because for the first couple of weeks people weren't wearing masks and weren't really distancing in supermarkets but numbers still came down. I think it's in all likelihood fine.

[Guest]

I would argue that complete isolation is nearly, if not more so, deadly that the virus itself.

Then again, suicide isn’t infectious, so maybe there’s a counter argument to be made.

 

I have mainatianed social interactions with one outside family. They come over for dinner

and vice versa. Their only exposure is my house and my only exposure is them. Is there a risk?

Yes. Life has risks. In this case it’s one I'm willing to take for my own personal sanity...

 

I agree. The point of these measures is flattening the curve, not wiping out the infection, which will not happen. Eventually we will all either get the disease or get vaccinated. If everyone gets it all at once, however, the health care systems and hospitals will be overwhelmed and care would have to be rationed (older and sicker people being given comfort measures only). As the weather turns warmer, I suspect the virus will also be less contagious and virulent. I don't see what you're doing as irresponsible. Yes, if one of you in either family gets it, you'll all get it. But going to the grocery store is a bigger risk, and we all do have to eat.

It's interesting to see that Sweden has decided to forgo almost all restrictions. Their death rate per capita is much higher than that of their neighbors, but they're not being overwhelmed so far. Maybe they'll be in deep doodoo in a week or two. However, their death rate is much lower that Switzerland or Italy's. Unclear why that is. I suspect they may have different strains of the virus, or the genetics of the host plays a role. This graph shows that shelter-in-place orders clearly do flatten the curve, though.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Unicorn

[+ purplekow]

Well Lunch is over. We ate outdoors. He was in the house for a very short period of time mostly to use the facilities. All plates and utensils immediately went into the dishwasher and were washed at the hottest settings and will not be used for more than 48 hours. The last load of dishes was in there clean for at least one week.

We kept social distances and spoke across the table about 8 to 10 feet apart. I will not be using that outdoor table for quite some time. Last time I used it was more than one month ago.

So I feel as though this was a safe and sane encounter.

[+ nycman]

We ate outdoors

All plates and utensils immediately went into the dishwasher

We kept social distances and spoke across the table about 8 to 10 feet apart.

You dirty dirty social distancing dishwashing SLUT!

 

grin

[+ keroscenefire]

I agree. The point of these measures is flattening the curve, not wiping out the infection, which will not happen. Eventually we will all either get the disease or get vaccinated. If everyone gets it all at once, however, the health care systems and hospitals will be overwhelmed and care would have to be rationed (older and sicker people being given comfort measures only). As the weather turns warmer, I suspect the virus will also be less contagious and virulent. I don't see what you're doing as irresponsible. Yes, if one of you in either family gets it, you'll all get it. But going to the grocery store is a bigger risk, and we all do have to eat.

It's interesting to see that Sweden has decided to forgo almost all restrictions. Their death rate per capita is much higher than that of their neighbors, but they're not being overwhelmed so far. Maybe they'll be in deep doodoo in a week or two. However, their death rate is much lower that Switzerland or Italy's. Unclear why that is. I suspect they may have different strains of the virus, or the genetics of the host plays a role. This graph shows that shelter-in-place orders clearly do flatten the curve, though.

 

It's interesting how the death rates have played out. I think it's partially about the healthcare of the country (number of hospitals, ICU beds, ventilators, etc. per capita) and partially about the health and lifestyle of the people. Italy for example has a pretty old population (45 years old on average), and a lot of families of different generations live together so maybe a younger asymptomatic son is giving it to his older parent or even grandparent who has a lot harder time with the disease. Italy and Spain also have lower numbers of ICU beds per capita than many other countries that have lower mortality rates like Germany, Japan and South Korea.

 

I also think in the long run we'll find that COVID-19 is not as deadly just because there is so little testing going on in many countries. In the US, you basically have to be directly exposed to someone with COVID or you have to be admitted to a hospital with severe symptoms. There are likely thousands of people who have had symptoms but couldn't get a test because there are so few available. Maybe even tens of thousands more who don't have symptoms at all but would still test positive for the virus. I think I read that in China they aren't counting people who are asymptomatic even when they do test positive for COVID. There is a bit of skewing in these statistics I think towards the more severe cases getting tested and then because they are already severely ill, they are more likely to die as well.

[Jarrod_Uncut]

What virus was a BLS 4? Does HIV have a lower BLS level because it never became airborne?

 

I seen this graph the other day, and thought it was helpful because it is arranged like planets in the solar system. COVID is like a full moon, HIV is like the size of Earth, whereas others in history have been like Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune. Talk about a pain in Uranus ? Of course just because a planet (or pandemic) is small in comparison, doesn’t make it small in size.

 

 

I would argue that complete isolation is nearly, if not more so, deadly that the virus itself.

 

 

That’s true. I mean already, I’ve been reading crazy news stories that you just don’t normally hear about.

 

What needs attention just as much as coronavirus? Mental health. Crisis mitigation. And it’s being put on the back burner. And the looneys are out in FULL scale. Hikacking buses in Dallas, threatening to bomb hospitals, driving like bats ? out out of hell...

 

Can’t just lose the nose to save face.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Jarrod_Uncut

[marylander1940]

A doctor on Trump’s team just compared the Coronavirus pandemic to the HIV epidemic. I’m sure there are older gentlemen here who remember what happened during those early days of the HIV crisis. Care to share?

 

The primary difference to me is that in the early years of AIDS, we didn't know what was causing it or how it was transmitted. I had acquaintances who died of unusual illnesses which at first didn't even seem clearly related to one another. One of them was a gay doctor who got bizarre symptoms for which he tried to treat himself; he died in 1980, and it wasn't until a couple of years later that we began to connect the dots. By the time another acquaintance died early in 1982, there were rumors going around about a "gay cancer." It wasn't until 1985 that we had a definitive answer about what was really going on.

 

What's crazy is that after it became clear that having BB sex was an irresponsible act of madness only comparable to playing Russian roulette so many folks bareback before PrEP was available.

[+ bigjoey]

It's interesting how the death rates have played out. I think it's partially about the healthcare of the country (number of hospitals, ICU beds, ventilators, etc. per capita) and partially about the health and lifestyle of the people. Italy for example has a pretty old population (45 years old on average), and a lot of families of different generations live together so maybe a younger asymptomatic son is giving it to his older parent or even grandparent who has a lot harder time with the disease. Italy and Spain also have lower numbers of ICU beds per capita than many other countries that have lower mortality rates like Germany, Japan and South Korea.

 

I also think in the long run we'll find that COVID-19 is not as deadly just because there is so little testing going on in many countries. In the US, you basically have to be directly exposed to someone with COVID or you have to be admitted to a hospital with severe symptoms. There are likely thousands of people who have had symptoms but couldn't get a test because there are so few available. Maybe even tens of thousands more who don't have symptoms at all but would still test positive for the virus. I think I read that in China they aren't counting people who are asymptomatic even when they do test positive for COVID. There is a bit of skewing in these statistics I think towards the more severe cases getting tested and then because they are already severely ill, they are more likely to die as well.

 

Well said. Until there are effective medical therapies and a vaccine, the virus will continue to work its way through populations. Shelter-in-place and social distancing can flatten the curve but at some point, these things must end for entire populations.

 

While shelter-in-place and social distancing can buy us time for effective medical therapies to be discovered and temporarily save lives, economic necessity says that for entire populations, it must end. Denmark is opening up for people under 65 and the people over 65 are still sheltered in place. Danish elementary schools are opening but only for the lower grades. It is going to be a slow process.

 

You mention factors like age and multi-generational families which are clear factors. Other lifestyle factors I have heard about are things like obesity and history of smoking. Unfortunately, the US is one of the most obese countries. Japan which is now being hit hard has a high rate of smoking.

 

There seem to be genetic factors. The virus affects different blood types with different rates of virus illness. Skin color seems to be a co-factor due to ability to produce vitamin D.

 

A country’s practice of universal vaccination with BCG seems to be a factor. Yes, poverty and the general availability of health care matters.

 

Sadly, history only becomes clear looking backwards but we must live in the present. Until there is effective and universal testing, all the statistics just are not meaningful. Unless there are uniform definitions for what to count as a Covid death or even what percentage of the population is infected is comparing apples to oranges.

 

There is still much we do not know about the behavior of this virus such as how long immunity lasts if you have had the virus. Some viruses have lifelong immunity and others only for a few months. The answer to that question will determine the speed of reopening.

 

The things to hope for are: effective treatment for those with the virus to lessen its mortality rate and a vaccine.

 

Mostly we are seeing speculation based on various assumptions. This virus illustrates humanity’s hubris that we can control nature. In the meantime, nature is thinning the herd; we can slow the virus down but not stop Mother Nature from her work.

 

Bottom line, more testing will give us better data to understand the virus. It will give us information to help people avoid from getting sick like lose weight and stop smoking (a shocker). Other things like ending multi-general living are too difficult to change for a culture. Some genetic factors like lack of vitamin D due to dark skin can be offset with vitamin D supplements.

 

You compare mortality rates between Germany, Japan and South Korea. Until the pandemic is over, the time factor of rate comparison needs to be considered. South Korea seems to have come out of the pandemic but Japan is still in the middle of it. South Korea’s mortality rate can now be know but not Japan’s. Again, history can only be told looking backwards but not in the middle of battle.

[+ purplekow]

The number of swine flu deaths in the US was about 13000. Worldwide it was much higher due to mostly deaths in China. Deaths being reported out of China with Covid 19 are much less a percentage of the people killed either because China became better adept of controlling the spread or because they are underreporting the number of deaths or because both are true.

Clearly US deaths from Covid 19 will be several times higher than the Swine flu and with a much greater effort to control it. Worldwide, it is likely to exceed the number of deaths as well. This will certainly be true if the disease takes a hard toll on Africa which was relatively spared from the swine flu.