More frequently being asked for my picture and tiered pricing for VGL

[+ sync]

That's like saying that because you think roses are pretty and peonies ugly you are prejudiced against peonies.

 

I would like all to know that my maternal grandmother's beds of peonies were appraised by all who gazed upon them as astonishingly beautiful.

[+ Gar1eth]

 

When people say their preferences aren't the result of racism, I cringe. They may not be changeable, and they may not be the result of conscious racism, but they're still racist.

 

That's like saying that because you think roses are pretty and peonies ugly you are prejudiced against peonies. Now I'll admit that ideas of beauty are usually culturally based. But to say that because you aren't attracted to a certain type of person is due to racism, seems to me going just a bit too far on the claim of racism.

 

Gman

 

How is culturally based not racist, at least in the American context?

 

I dislike seafood. But I don't have a prejudice against fish. Just because tastes are usually culturally based doesn't mean they are the result of racism. People can be allowed to have preferences without the race card being invoked.

 

Gmsn

[+ José Soplanucas]

It is amazing how the smartest and coolest people make the most silly arguments to declare themselves free of racism.

We all have racist thoughs and behaviors. How could we not when we are shaped by mainstream ideology?

I have no doubt that my preference for Blacks and Latinos has a racist component. It does not make me racist, though. If you cannot accept that you have a big deal of racism and mysoginy and homophobia in everything you are and you think and you feel, you are part of the problem.

[+ quoththeraven]

I dislike seafood. But I don't have a prejudice against fish. Just because tastes are usually culturally based doesn't mean they are the result of racism. People can be allowed to have preferences without the race card being invoked.

 

Gmsn

There is no racial coding to fish. My sister and daughter don't like seafood. I think they're missing out.

 

I agree with you when it comes to food that you are culturally imprinted on, but not appearance standards that track racial stereotypes because those stereotypes are inherently racist because they are shaped by societal prejudices. What food you eat has little to no moral content, at least vis-a-vis race. What people you find attractive and how you relate to them, not so much. It's not as if we're neutral blank slates.

[+ quoththeraven]

It is amazing how the smartest and coolest people make the most silly arguments to declare themselves free of racism.

We all have racist thoughs and behaviors. How could we not when we are shaped by mainstream ideology?

I have no doubt that my preference for Blacks and Latinos has a racist component. It does not make me racist, though. If you cannot accept that you have a big deal of racism and mysoginy and homophobia in everything you are and you think and you feel, you are part of the problem.

Actually I think we are all racist because the society we live in is. The issue is whether we're aware of it and manage it or if we let it manage us.

[EastbayMike]

When people say their preferences aren't the result of racism, I cringe. They may not be changeable, and they may not be the result of conscious racism, but they're still racist.

Exactly! As I've said in previous posts, one can't describe their so-called "preferences" using racial terms then say they themselves are not racist. Own it.

[+ purplekow]

Exactly! As I've said in previous posts, one can't describe their so-called "preferences" using racial terms then say they themselves are not racist. Own it.

I like muscular men. I do not hire thin men, twinks, sticks, bois. etc. I do not exhibit this preference in other aspects of my life. I see no reason why having a "type" and that includes racial preferences makes one a racist. Who you want in your bed has little to do with how you treat people out of it.

[+ quoththeraven]

I like muscular men. I do not hire thin men, twinks, sticks, bois. etc. I do not exhibit this preference in other aspects of my life. I see no reason why having a "type" and that includes racial preferences makes one a racist. Who you want in your bed has little to do with how you treat people out of it.

Except if you apply these preferences to everyone, there isn't anything racist about it. What it says about your relationship to masculinity and femininity is something different, but I give non-monosexuals more of a pass on that issue.

 

What would be problematic is liking muscular Mediterranean men to the exclusion of others. Or not liking Asians at all even if they are muscular, etc.

Edited October 12, 2018 by quoththeraven

[Wolfer]

*walks back in after a day at work*

Uh... Seafood, Peonies and racism? That got to a different topic quickly.

 

Anyway, I cancelled, thanks for asking.

 

I genuinely wonder: physically I am more attracted to hairy bodies with thick eyebrows and dark hair. Now since generally Latin, Arab and Indian men tend to have these features, it follows that, on the whole, I find myself more frequently attracted to men of those races.

But if a Caucasian or Asian walks by with those features I will just as easily be attracted. Does this still make it racist?

 

While I do have a physical type, I've also been attracted to guys of any race, body type and legal age. If a guy is hot, he's hot, I always say.

 

I do believe, though, that for a lot of people there's an element of nurture (as opposed to nature) in one's preferences.

I noticed this myself when I started binge watching Japanese and South-Korean live action tv series. I started noticing that I was finding Asian men to be more and more attractive.

[Gymowner]

It is amazing how the smartest and coolest people make the most silly arguments to declare themselves free of racism.

We all have racist thoughs and behaviors. How could we not when we are shaped by mainstream ideology?

I have no doubt that my preference for Blacks and Latinos has a racist component. It does not make me racist, though. If you cannot accept that you have a big deal of racism and mysoginy and homophobia in everything you are and you think and you feel, you are part of the problem.

 

latbear is correct. EVERYONE has bias and prejudice in our blood. on an individual basis it cannot be denied. what many focus on now is the prejudice that the white male has in society. that in itself is prejudice. seems perfectly ok for those to have bias. get over it boys. you are just as prejudice in your lives as any other. you just feel a moral high ground to justify it. get over yourselves.

 

i cant get enough of smooth hot blond haired blue eyed straight males. hmmm. so i must be in disgust with dark skinned, effeminate homosexuals eh? no. its just not my preference.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Gymowner

[Drained Empty]

There's no definitive line between "preference" and "racism," but here's how I differentiate.

 

For me (and others), preference isn't exclusionary. While I personally may prefer white or black men, I'm open to Latin and Asian men.

 

Racism is exclusionary. It may be overt ("no Asians" advisories in profiles, or providers turning you down after they learn your race). I have been in a steam room obscured by steam and overhead white guys complaining about "too many Asians." Likewise, when the steam clears and they see me, they get up and leave. They didn't do it before the entire time I was sitting there. They don't do it to white patrons even though they may be out of shape, older, and other qualities seen as "undesirable." The only difference? Race.

 

Many white gays say, "I don't want to have sex with women, does that make me sexist?" No, it doesn't make one sexist. But it's how one acts. Guys don't write "no eggs" (or whatever dehumanizing equivalent to "no rice" is). If a woman approaches a man in a bar, he doesn't stick his hand in her face to ward her off. And guys don't glare, roll their eyes, or leave when women enter their space.

 

The worst part is, after experiencing these behaviors, many Asians internalize them. It may be because of male beauty standards, it may be wanting to fit in with white culture. I'll never forget when I went to a bar with a biracial Asian friend and he said, "ew, Asian guys." What does he think about me? What does he think about himself? The self-loathing is the saddest part.

 

And the justification is just as bad. A story recently made rounds about a Filipino guy on a dating show. Two Asian girls turned him down immediately. The reason they gave? They don't want people to think they're dating their brother. Wtf. No one ever thinks this. They're just self-loathing racists. No white person would ever think this, let alone say it.

 

On the flip side, no white person has to deal with being harrassed for their preferences. On my dating profiles I state the preference I did above. I have had multiple Asian guys attack me, threaten me, and worse. If I can find a way to post these messages you would be appalled. If I were a woman and received these threats I'd report the sender to police.

 

Again, an experience unique to Asians. At least I think they are.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Actually I think we are all racist because the society we live in is. The issue is whether we're aware of it and manage it or if we let it manage us.

I agree. The only reason I prefer not to use the “racist” label is that I feel it closes the conversation for most people.

[Drained Empty]

What many focus on now is the prejudice that the white male has in society. that in itself is prejudice. seems perfectly ok for those to have bias. get over it boys. you are just as prejudice in your lives as any other. you just feel a moral high ground to justify it. get over yourselves.

It's the way that white men act.

 

They are in a position of power. They are they alphas. They are the gay elite. White men are what are epitomized. They make the rules.

 

So if attractive white men say "no Asians," that becomes a prevalent attitude. Take my biracial Filipino friend that I mentioned above. He downright denounces Asians because that thinking is so engrained. He used to try to pass (like Darren Criss) as white or latin.

 

Nothing exemplifies this privilege more that Korean spas. We have a lot of them in LA. What was a venue for Asian men/families to bathe and relax have become gay bathhouses for white men. These white men have completely taken them over, glaring and scoffing at Korean patrons. Then if a Korean patron complains, I have witnessed white guys walk out on them, close doors in their face, etc.

 

I don't disagree that everyone has preferences and prejudices. It's how you act on them.

[Drained Empty]

@Drained Empty

 

We always appreciate your sincere and thoughtful posts on this and other subjects!

 

As an American I couldn't be more grateful with all the amazing things new Americans (mostly form SE Asia and East Asia) are doing for all mankind in Silicon Valley!

 

An Asian doctor (Dr. Ho) pioneered HIV research that so many gay men owe their lives to.

 

As you pointed out, Asian engineers work on the technologies that allow us to post on these devices and boards.

 

Hell, even Asian investors own Grindr.

 

And I can't tell you how many white guys use Korean spas sporting their Chinese calligraphy tattoos. But if an Asian enters the room, it's clear the decks.

[Gymowner]

and everyone acts on them...thats a fact. blacks act on them, asians act on them and so forth. i have a good friend half black and half russian. he told me the story that his grandmother on his fathers black side of the family when he announced he was dating a white woman, would not allow her into the house. when she became pregnant with my friend the grandmother would not allow her black son into the house. he had to stay at the screen door to visit his father. no racism? oh...its totally ok when its against white people. get over your bigoted attitude.

 

you mentioned the guys in the steam room getting up to leave. they have every right to leave if they want to. you dont know why they left. now... to bar someone from going into the steam room...thats another story and thats why there are laws to protect people. there are no laws that anyone has to participate with anyone they do not want to participate with. when segregation hit the books that was a good thing. but it didnt mean that anyone had to become friends with anyone they didnt want to be friends with. my best friend growing up was black. he and his sister were the only two blacks in my middle school. she was valedictorian and he was the most popular person in school. guess when he had problems? when we went to high school and there were many blacks in the school. THEY had a problem with him being as the said "so white acting". hmmmmm mother was a school superintendent and father a businessman. maybe they should have renounced their educations and status in society? they were being racist to those in their own race according to the high school blacks. so should the other blacks have felt bad about their positions in society due to my friends parents success? it made them feel a certain way according to your philosophy.

 

my point is their is prejudice in every walk of life. big deal. grow up and get a little thick skin.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Gymowner

[+ tassojunior]

I agree that 99% of the time a pic is requested by a provider it's a racial thing.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Nothing exemplifies this privilege more that Korean spas. We have a lot of them in LA. What was a venue for Asian men/families to bathe and relax have become gay bathhouses for white men. These white men have completely taken them over, glaring and scoffing at Korean patrons. Then if a Korean patron complains, I have witnessed white guys walk out on them, close doors in their face, etc.

 

A K spa should be an awesome, relaxing, cultural experience: Your experience makes me angry and sad.

 

I'm sorry that gay LA is proving itself to be gay LA, yet again. The two K spas we have in Dallas have had issues with cruising in the past, but they took a hard line on stopping it (and calling the PD on those who were caught). Public embarrassment and a police record tend to keep that kind of behavior better left at Club Dallas.

 

It doesn't take many complaints to a city about a legit spa turning into a gay bathhouse for them to start sniffing around.

[GBoi]

and everyone acts on them...thats a fact. blacks act on them, asians act on them and so forth. i have a good friend half black and half russian. he told me the story that his grandmother on his fathers black side of the family when he announced he was dating a white woman, would not allow her into the house. when she became pregnant with my friend the grandmother would not allow her black son into the house. he had to stay at the screen door to visit his father. no racism? oh...its totally ok when its against white people. get over your bigoted attitude.

 

Who said that it’s okay to be racist against white people?

 

Seriously how often do you see someone post “no blacks or “no Asians” versus “no whites”. How are blanket statements like that NOT racist?

 

White privilege is no where more prevalent than in the gay community.

[KeepItReal]

To get the thread back on track...I never disappoint when asked for a face pic!

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/98500/Gerber-Baby-With-a-Beard--98524.jpg

[caramelsub]

Drained empty, I understand where you are coming from and have read some of your previous posts from other threads. I think Asian women have it easier then Asian men in terms of being more sexually desirable. I don’t think any straight man regardless of race would turn down being with an Asian woman. But somehow Asian men aren’t seen as sex objects as compared to Asian women. Look at Hollywood or in adult films. Not many Asian male heartthrobs. Though I think Southeast Asians and Indians have it easier, because they are more racially ambiguous.

[+ Gar1eth]

I'd just like to say I love handsome, muscular, masculine Asian men. If I could have found one to hire, I would have. But even more it wouldn't have bothered me at all to have one as a boyfriend or f-buddy either. I had an Asian roommate for a while in grad school. Facially he was nice looking but not, if you'll pardon the expression, a Greek g-d. On the other hand he was quite muscular. I don't remember ever really fantasizing about him then (although this was 20 something years ago and maybe I've forgotten). But I think I remember really enjoying it when he would take his shirt off. Not that I could tell him as I didn't want to be gay and was deeply closeted back then.

 

Gman

Edited October 12, 2018 by Gar1eth

[Wolfer]

So I can't decide for myself if the escort asking for my picture should be a dealbreaker or not?

I know I have to make that decision for myself, and my experience tells me that the ones who ask have been less than great (even bad) experiences while the ones that don't ask have, generally, been good to amazing. But I don't know if there's a direct causal relationship between them.

 

I'm just a little frustrated as some of the guys I'm interested in hiring state in their profile that it's necessary for the client to send a picture. So it's dick against brain, I guess.

(And I know, move on to the next guy, but it's slim pickings currently where I live.)

Or I could just save the money.

[+ FrankR]

I know I have to make that decision for myself, and my experience tells me that the ones who ask have been less than great (even bad) experiences while the ones that don't ask have, generally, been good to amazing.

I think you answered your own question...

[+ quoththeraven]

I agree. The only reason I prefer not to use the “racist” label is that I feel it closes the conversation for most people.

I am just the opposite. It may close the conversation but that's on them, not me.

 

We can't have a useful discussion of racism until people (white people, mostly) stop seeing racism as the worst epithet ever. We can't have a useful discussion of rape until people stop seeing rapist as a conversation ender. So I will continue to use those terms.

 

And conservatives think the left are the snowflakes. Ha!

[+ quoththeraven]

It's the way that white men act.

 

They are in a position of power. They are they alphas. They are the gay elite. White men are what are epitomized. They make the rules.

 

So if attractive white men say "no Asians," that becomes a prevalent attitude. Take my biracial Filipino friend that I mentioned above. He downright denounces Asians because that thinking is so engrained. He used to try to pass (like Darren Criss) as white or latin.

 

Nothing exemplifies this privilege more that Korean spas. We have a lot of them in LA. What was a venue for Asian men/families to bathe and relax have become gay bathhouses for white men. These white men have completely taken them over, glaring and scoffing at Korean patrons. Then if a Korean patron complains, I have witnessed white guys walk out on them, close doors in their face, etc.

 

I don't disagree that everyone has preferences and prejudices. It's how you act on them.

Oh man. If the owners of Korean spas weren't overly invested in the customer is right mentality, those men would get a piece of their mind.

 

If I were one of those Korean patrons I would complain to management. Loudly. Ingratitude and entitlement are a bad look.