Being taken advantage of...

[+ Travis69]

If the entire time during the massage you must be clenching your ass tight and be on guard because rape is a possibility, well why the fuck get a massage at all? That sounds awful. To be on edge from the get-go is the total opposite of what a massage should be.

 

Here's an important fact about sociopaths and assholes who take advantage of people - they are master manipulators and appear to be "nice" and "sane" but will turn on you on a dime. If someone has been lulled into a relaxed mood and not on guard, someone physically stronger can force penetration. Sure you can push them off, but it ALREADY HAPPENED. Worst yet, if the masseur was already close to climax, and they pushed in AT THAT MOMENT, they could cum inside you. You can push them off, but it already happened.

 

It is not unreasonable to expect a safe experience.

That is why I tell them ahead of time my explicit dos and don'ts. I leave nothing to chance or them assuming. I also do not let them crawl on top of me. Big "don't" in my book.

[BostonTom]

I can't believe half these posts are serious.

If the entire time during the massage you must be clenching your ass tight and be on guard because rape is a possibility, well why the fuck get a massage at all? That sounds awful. To be on edge from the get-go is the total opposite of what a massage should be.

 

Here's an important fact about sociopaths and assholes who take advantage of people - they are master manipulators and appear to be "nice" and "sane" but will turn on you on a dime. If someone has been lulled into a relaxed mood and not on guard, someone physically stronger can force penetration. Sure you can push them off, but it ALREADY HAPPENED. Worst yet, if the masseur was already close to climax, and they pushed in AT THAT MOMENT, they could cum inside you. You can push them off, but it already happened.

 

It is not unreasonable to expect a safe experience.

But you just proved it's impossible to expect a safe experience . . .

[BostonTom]

Sounds like ALL sexual components, if offered and desired, should be discussed prior to massage. NO more "non-verbal clues". NO more spontaneous acts. Obviously this should be a detailed orchestrated event to protect all parties involved.

Agreed, your lawyer should be present at all times. And it's best to record the whole session for any potential future court date.

[IntuitiveTactile]

I also do not let them crawl on top of me

I can understand why, that profile photo would bring the Rapist out in Goldilocks

*woof*

[+ Travis69]

I can understand why, that profile photo would bring the Rapist out in Goldilocks

*woof*

Don't forget the 3 bears.

[NYSlim]

Perhaps a bit late to chime in here with my own story, but here goes...

 

I was in London and met with a Brazilian masseur who offered several different types of erotic massages. I will preface this with saying that I don't mind penetration during a massage, if I am into the masseur, and in the mood for penetration and if the masseur plays safe. However, on this particular instance, the masseur entered me, sans condom, and when I asked if he had one on, he said no. So, I politely asked him to pull out. He spent about 5 or so minutes trying to convince me to continue without the condom and that he was inside already without one, but I refused. He was nice enough, I suppose, but we continued the massage with a normal HE and then I paid and left.

 

I suppose my experience could have been the same as the OP had I not spoken up. Perhaps it could've been worse had the guy refused to get off of me, as well. In other cases where it has gone further than just a massage, the masseur has always outright asked me or said what he wants to do, and its been up to me to say yes or no. If they don't ask, then it becomes up to you to say no, or at the very least to state from the beginning your limits. Especially if you are receiving an erotic massage.

 

To the OP: I'm really sorry you had that experience and felt powerless to do/say something. I truly understand the aspect of being frozen/shocked, but I hope this doesn't deter you from hiring in the future.

[NYSlim]

Perhaps a bit late to chime in here with my own story, but here goes...

 

I was in London and met with a Brazilian masseur who offered several different types of erotic massages. I will preface this with saying that I don't mind penetration during a massage, if I am into the masseur, and in the mood for penetration and if the masseur plays safe. However, on this particular instance, the masseur entered me, sans condom, and when I asked if he had one on, he said no. So, I politely asked him to pull out. He spent about 5 or so minutes trying to convince me to continue without the condom and that he was inside already without one, but I refused. He was nice enough, I suppose, but we continued the massage with a normal HE and then I paid and left.

 

I suppose my experience could have been the same as the OP had I not spoken up. Perhaps it could've been worse had the guy refused to get off of me, as well. In other cases where it has gone further than just a massage, the masseur has always outright asked me or said what he wants to do, and its been up to me to say yes or no. If they don't ask, then it becomes up to you to say no, or at the very least to state from the beginning your limits. Especially if you are receiving an erotic massage.

 

To the OP: I'm really sorry you had that experience and felt powerless to do/say something. I truly understand the aspect of being frozen/shocked, but I hope this doesn't deter you from hiring in the future.

[Guest fm0322]

It is so interesting to read the posts on this thread that the intensity they provoke. On the one side are persons like me who can empathize with the experience that opened this thread, and, on the other side are the harsh posts who are critical. Almost nothing in between. There is such a strong reaction to male sexual abuse.

 

I have never entered a massage experience assessing my skill in fighting off the masseur. I vet masseurs through this site and go to spas I am willing to trust, just as I trust they wash the towels they use. We are open to read comments of masseurs we like and dislike, we should be open to reading comments about bad experiences without judging the poster.

[MRJJ]

IMHO, the masseur has the responsibility to ask if the client wants to be penetrated, period! If the client says yes, then he also has the right to say whether he wants a condom used.

[Rvarghcrna]

I heard a friend of mine had experience and the guy said you did it to yourself, kind odd if you don't recall the incident or if you had a drink which could have been lazed

[dutchal]

I've faced "being taken advantage of" twice during a massage, once by a top and once by a bottom. Both were many years ago, when today's medicines for HIV and Prep were not available, you were positive for weeks or months before it could show up on a test, and HIV usually still meant AIDS eventually.

 

The first was a tall, muscular masseur. We were part way into the massage on a table and I noticed he was paying a lot of attention to my butt. I'm sure I was appreciating it. The massage stopped for a few moments and I heard some noise that in retrospect I should have recognized. He was putting on a condom. Then, all of a sudden, he was knocking on the door. Fortunately, I was tight enough that he got nowhere, and I made plain in no uncertain terms that what he wanted was not going to happen. We finished the massage, which except for this incident was pretty good, and I think there was also an HE. I did not tip and never went back. The good news was that penetration did not succeed and that he had on a condom.

 

The second was a much smaller guy with a very attractive athletic build. I think it was my second massage with him, but it was long ago enough that I don't remember for sure. He gave a very good massage on a table. After I flipped over, he was sitting on top of me. I was aroused, naturally. He was massaging my chest, I think, and then all of sudden in a very deft and astonishingly swift move he slid himself onto me. I came almost instantly, before I could pull out or pull him off of me. I did not have a condom on, and made clear that I was upset about the risk. He told me he was negative, but I knew that was not good enough. I had anxiety about it for months until it was long enough after the experience that I could be sure of having gotten nothing from him. I was also startled that he took the risk he did. He actually seemed something between startled and bemused by my reaction. I did not tip and did not go back.

 

In retrospect, I should have walked out on the first guy at the moment he tried something. He was big and strong enough that, if he wanted, he might well have been able to hold me down and force himself in. I don't know what, if anything, different I should have done with the second guy.

[Massageislife]

Very interesting thread. Thank you for reviving it! It raises a lot of questions about the massage scene that are nuanced and worth talking through.

 

First, I have to say that it is painful to hear about the incident described in the initial post. The freezing up is an understandable response for someone who is not expecting anal entry, and it is unfortunate that the masseur was not a better reader of what was going on in the client's mind. The poster does not describe anything he did to let the masseur know that the penetration was unwanted, however, so the question is whether an explicit verbal request for penetration followed by verbal or non-verbal consent is always required in advance. For me the context of m4m massage culture is the key to if not answering, at least considering responsibly this question. It's a mistake to quickly conflate what is described in the post with rape involving restraint or threat of harm, rape of drugged or unconscious persons, heterosexual rape (which involves a gender dynamic that has to be taken into consideration), etc.

 

It seems to me that the most thoughtful posts here which designate as rape what the initial poster describes rely on ideas of consent most relevant to date or spousal rape, wherein the issue of consent is complicated by taking place in a setting where the parties have expressed some degree of sexual or romantic interest in each other. If a person in a marriage or dating situation says no to a sexual advance, it is unambiguously sexual assault or rape if the other proceeds. Reading non-verbal cues, however, is a much thornier issue, and, legally, is much harder to prosecute. Lack of cues, including an affirmative one, however, is, I think, what we're discussing, and that is the murkiest area of consent of all.

 

As some have testified to here, many welcome anal penetration during an erotic M4M massage, and a non-verbal cue or even a lack of cues is considered sufficient permission for a masseur to proceed. Many threads in this forum discuss preferences for explicitness in advance versus "playing it by ear" in how far the sexual dimensions of a massage proceed, and I think this issue falls painfully within that difference. Any masseur who doesn't respond to a client indicating that the anal entry is unwelcome is committing sexual assault, but given the complexity of sex work dynamics, penetration that is not objected to either verbally or non-verbally shouldn't be immediately equated with rape. Of course, I hope masseurs reading this will take seriously those, including the original poster, who indicate that they would prefer an explicit request for anal penetration and that even when a client being penetrated doesn't object verbally that checking in that they are okay is advisable. That seems a good idea for all sexual exchanges. I think that it's unfair, however, to describe as a simple rapist an erotic masseur who wrongly reads a client as welcoming anal penetration. Those of us who have specific preferences and boundaries within the highly charged scenario of M4M erotic massage need to communicate those things explicitly. To say this is not the same thing as blaming the victim; it is to recognize the complex, particular communicative structures of gay sex work. I understand, for example, campus codes that require verbal consent in sexual interactions between (in particular heterosexual) students. M4M massage and other types of gay sex work have particularities that should be considered--and are considered in this thread--before we strictly invoke other sexual scenes to describe what happens. I think most of us cherish many of the differences between M4M massage and other forms of sexuality.

 

People have been pretty open in this thread, so I'll say that a masseur penetrated me without a condom without asking. I had sent plenty of non-verbal cues that I was enjoying his hands and then his penis brushing against my asshole, but I was still surprised when his penis went in, without a condom. I had never been fucked without a condom, and the whole thing was disorienting. I wish he had said something like, "I want to fuck you," and had worn a condom, but I didn't say anything. I enjoyed the experience but even if I hadn't, I wouldn't have called him a rapist. He wasn't a particularly empathetic person, but he was responding to the expectations of the sex work context and the non-verbal cues that I was enjoying the things he had done up to that point--none of which he got specific, individual permission to do. Afterwards, I worried about my silence and about the chance that I could have been infected, but I had to own both things and grow from the experience.

[Monarchy79]

BB sex at that time was an act of insanity! If folks had kept using condoms till PrEP was around HIV would be almost gone by now.

 

Now B.B. sex is an act of delusion.

 

HIV transmission rates are down, but all of the other STD rates are skyrocketing.

[Monarchy79]

I’ve had a massage experience about 10 years ago, where I felt taken advantage of. The massage part was actually quite nice and when it came time for the erotic ending I was open to performing oral on the masseur. But i was not prepared to have my head held still while he proceeded to basically fuck my face. I can barely breathe, I can’t talk. I can’t push him off. And then he came in my mouth which I definitely didn’t want nor was I expecting. Thankfully it was pretty quick, but it did feel longer. I can definitely understand how one can freeze. Now some people may find this a hot scenario, i didnt. I left feeling ashamed, guilty and nervous for several weeks about STD’s. I’m fine, and I got over it. But still would never see him again or recommend him to anyone.

 

Should have bitten his dick... lol....

Problem solved.. ?

[LivingnLA]

Without enthusiastic consent, any sexual contact is wrong because every human being should have control over their own body. Any society that believes in accountability, freedom, and responsibility should agree because without enthusiastic consent, any physical or sexual contact is unwanted which means coercion and intimidation along with physical or sexual assault.

 

http://persephonemagazine.com/2012/05/why-do-people-hate-the-concept-of-enthusiastic-consent/

[starman05]

I don't get out much, but a few times guys have wanted me to fuck them or wanted to fuck me and the second I say 'how about a condom?' they've gotten this totally confused look on their faces -- as if I've shown for a New Year's Eve party on Thanksgiving Day.

[Monarchy79]

I don't get out much, but a few times guys have wanted me to fuck them or wanted to fuck me and the second I say 'how about a condom?' they've gotten this totally confused look on their faces -- as if I've shown for a New Year's Eve party on Thanksgiving Day.

 

Condom is the new “C” word.

It offends guys and makes them gasp as much as calling a woman a C@&$.....

 

I literally get ghosted on apps when a suitor asks me of my sex practices, and I shamefully admit that I’m a condom user....

[Dmitri]

Condom is the new “C” word.

It offends guys and makes them gasp as much as calling a woman a C@&$.....

 

I literally get ghosted on apps when a suitor asks me of my sex practices, and I shamefully admit that I’m a condom user....

 

Don't be ashamed. I am a condom user also.....there are LOTS of us out here!

Edited August 22, 2019 by Dmitri

[rogerG]

I agree, interesting thread.

 

I, too, have been in situations that caused me to freeze, and I'm not the freeze type. None of them were sexual, but the trauma made me think deeper about my reaction.

 

I have also been with massage therapists who wanted more sexually. When that happened, even though I was in the massage cloud, I quickly became alert and pulled words together to discuss intentions. Luckily, I had no problem controlling those situations. I'm upfront with sex talk.

 

The HE massage experience is fraught with potential danger. It's very important for the customer to know what those dangers are if he wants to protect himself.

 

Many gay guys want silence and anticipation to be part of their massage fantasy. With this type of customer, it's impossible for the MT to read someone's mind. Without direct communication, the MT could easily turn into a very horny guy looking for his own version of HE.

 

Some guys do not want to be penetrated, especially without a condom, or take cum in the mouth, so it's very important that those customers tell the naked MT about this limit. Customers who have certain don'ts usually have no difficulty voicing those particulars.

 

HE massage therapists who think it's OK to penetrate a customer without permission could very easily find their lives ruined. Not worth the risk.

[LivingnLA]

I, too, have been in situations that caused me to freeze, and I'm not the freeze type.

 

All humans are "the freeze type" depending on the threat and the specifics of the situation. We talk about "fight or flight" and forget there are four F's: Fight, Flight, Freeze, and Fawn. They are all normal reactions for our species to threat and trauma.

 

https://www.acuitycounseling.net/2019/05/30/fight-flight-freeze-or-fawn-what-is-trauma/

[LivingnLA]

Condom is the new “C” word.

It offends guys

 

Yes. It seems like some guys get easily offended by condoms because they take it personally. Like you're suggesting they're infected with something or that you're calling them and their practices into question. Sexually transmitted infection rates for many infections are at record highs and still climbing. To make matters worse, most men have no symptoms and treatment resistance is rapidly spreading. It's best to assume an unknown new sexual partner is a risk and practice the safest sex you're willing to risk.

[Deadlift1]

BostonTom. Can u come back to this thread? SJW are back and need to be put in their place.

[BostonTom]

Oh, there's really no stopping them. I continue to be amused by this scenario, though.

[Massageislife]

Without enthusiastic consent, any sexual contact is wrong because every human being should have control over their own body. Any society that believes in accountability, freedom, and responsibility should agree because without enthusiastic consent, any physical or sexual contact is unwanted which means coercion and intimidation along with physical or sexual assault.

 

http://persephonemagazine.com/2012/05/why-do-people-hate-the-concept-of-enthusiastic-consent/

This post is problematic, particularly in the context of m4m massage. What the linked article designates as "enthusiastic consent" may be the ideal for some people--particularly in non-remunerative kinds of sexual exchange (which m4m massage isn't)--but it is not only wrongheaded but a refusal to engage in dialogue to call all other kinds of sexual exchange "wrong" and any form of consent that doesn't involve detailed questions and answers about all aspects of the encounter "coercion," "intimidation," and "assault."

 

 

One thing that strikes me here (and, honestly, in many of the threads on this forum) is the implicit condemnation of providers and expressions of perceived superiority by many of the clients who post. I've heard just as many complaints from masseurs about clients who grab their dicks or expect sex when that is not agreed to or advertised, as well as clients who don't show up, show up late, or refuse to pay the agreed upon price. Many clients who post on this site gleefully describe what they get away with or how they got escort service for the price of a massage. The disjuncture between the acceptance of these behaviors and attitudes on the behalf of clients and the outrage-more-than-outrage (calling for an unnamed masseur to be publicly shamed, to have his business ruined, even to be reported to the police) suggests a denial about the actual power dynamic at work in m4m massage and the sense of entitlement many of us bring to the scene. It’s not to say that masseurs are angels or victims; they’re people and workers who are more or less good at their jobs. We clients are the ones, however, holding the purse; the ones who get to scroll through pages of (usually younger and better-looking than us) possible masseurs and select the one who suits our fancy; the ones who get to say, "I want this and this kind of intimacy but not that kind or that kind" (Masseurs only have the right of refusal); and the ones who feel free to go on this public forum and ridicule masseurs in every possible way. It all smells of the classic disrespect (to use the mildest word possible) for those who provide the body and sex work that is so valuable to all of us.

 

I've tried to stick to the post that originated this conversation in my comments. That post does not describe a person with a history of abuse (although there might be) that made him vulnerable in particular ways. It does not describe an incident of drugging ("Massage bliss" does not deprive a person of the power to consent). It does not describe being physically overpowered or a fear of being physically overpowered. It does not describe a masseur who ignored an expression of lack of consent (“no means no”). Most of all it DOES describe a context in which a sexual encounter (erotic massage) was requested and agreed to. It describes a masseur who did any number of acts that pleased the client which, apparently, were not cleared in advance (and which were they to be non-consensual, would be sexual assault). The post suggests that the non-verbal refusal of consent (turning the head to the other side) to the offer of oral sex was respected by the masseur. The non-refusal of consent in the non-verbal request to penetrate anally (the brushing of the penis against the ass, while on top of the client) was apparently taken by the masseur to mean consent. The non-refusal of consent once the penetration began was apparently taken by the masseur as affirmation of consent.

 

The value of this thread, for me, is not to trash an anonymous masseur--and especially not to trash the poster--but to discuss the m4m massage experiences we have. The initial post made me thoughtful about my expectations from men who are only in the room with me because I am paying them, about my comfort level around sex generally, and about my relationship to sexual spontaneity, including the use of condoms. Something has seemed not quite right about the perhaps majority opinion on this site that one should be clear in advance about exactly what one expected from the massage. Reading and thinking about this thread has helped me understand that my discomfort with communicating explicit requests to a masseur who has not met me and expecting him to match them is not because I'm excited by the unknown (I actually wish I could always count on certain things in an erotic massage). I think it's because it's dehumanizing to treat a masseur like someone who doesn't have their own sexuality, dignity, or moods. It's my privilege as a client to not only have a strong sense in advance of who and what I'm getting (unless their ad is misleading, in which case I can just walk away) but also to punish them economically if I'm not satisfied (by stiffing them or trashing them on a site like this). In our dehumanizing imagination of masseurs, however, we expect that, sight unseen, we are entitled to require them to do precisely this and precisely not that in the massage. It's why I try to accept the broad parameters of an erotic massage. There are minimum, generally understood things that define a massage as erotic (partial, usually total nudity), mutual touch of some kind, and contact of some sort with the clients ass/penis. Once we meet and--especially the masseur who is getting a look at me for the first time--begin to get a sense of each other, those parameters get specified. Beyond the bare minimum implied by the term "erotic," I have to accept what occurs when they do or don't respond to my signals. Too many of us feel that a couple of hundred bucks entitles us to anything with another human being.

I hope every client reading this thread and this forum understands that some erotic massages lead to fucking, which many of us, many times, desire, and that many people fuck without a condom, unless one asks otherwise. I hope every masseur reading this thread understands how attentive he needs to be to a client's signals (and lack of signals), especially regarding something as fraught as anal sex.

[Massageislife]

BostonTom. Can u come back to this thread? SJW are back and need to be put in their place.

BostonTom is a skilled poster, but the "SJW" snipe isn't funny or necessary. Without what rightwingers and "liberals" like Bill Maher dismiss when they dismiss this term is exactly the kind of activism that has made, among many other essential things, gay rights and the safety of websites and gay massage services possible.

 

Know your enemies!