Being taken advantage of...

[Phil_musc]

Believe it or not, I didn't know the term SJW. I had to look it up. Thank you for the info. Now back to this regularly scheduled thread, which is actually quite worthwhile, IMHO.

[LivingnLA]

Discussing complex topics online is always challenging because so much is missing from the communication and people frequently assume the worst possible interpretation of what they're reading. I'm sure I'm as guilty of that as the next person because we all do it unless we're very careful readers and writers.

 

To be clear, I have not attacked anyone nor am I remotely interested in personal attacks or in damaging someone's business or reputation. I am aware of the power dynamics that exist in this hobby of ours and I recognize that none of us are mind readers. As someone who believes strongly in a human being's right to be secure in their own body, I have a particularly strong stance on consent and I also believe strongly in proactive communication, accountability, and personal responsibility.

 

Enthusiastic consent isn't hard or difficult and it doesn't even "kill the mood" as some people seem to suggest. It does require a shift in thinking though because it recognizes that it's impossible for one human being to know what another human being is actually thinking without communication. We don't know each other's life experiences, traumas, fears, or desires without communication. Depending on the nature of the relationship and familiarity, that could come in many forms but without it, whatever is happening is based on assumptions and humans are notoriously bad at guessing what another person wants or thinks when they don't know each other well.

 

https://medium.com/@bennessb/enthusiastic-consent-what-people-mean-3e04a7a9e26b

http://rockstardinosaurpirateprincess.com/2015/03/02/consent-not-actually-that-complicated/

https://www.scarleteen.com/article/abuse_assault/drivers_ed_for_the_sexual_superhighway_navigating_consent

Edited August 23, 2019 by LivingnLA

[BostonTom]

BostonTom is a skilled poster, but the "SJW" snipe isn't funny or necessary. Without what rightwingers and "liberals" like Bill Maher dismiss when they dismiss this term is exactly the kind of activism that has made, among many other essential things, gay rights and the safety of websites and gay massage services possible.

 

Know your enemies!

Sorry, no. I'm old enough to have been around for the marches in the 80's and the AIDS Action Committee here in Boston and those people were nothing like the SJWs of today. They weren't narcissistic connoisseurs of victimology, nor were they prone to subtly judgy discourse that masqueraded as sympathy. They weren't like that at all.

[Massageislife]

Sorry, no. I'm old enough to have been around for the marches in the 80's and the AIDS Action Committee here in Boston and those people were nothing like the SJWs of today. They weren't narcissistic connoisseurs of victimology, nor were they prone to subtly judgy discourse that masqueraded as sympathy. They weren't like that at all.

I was around then too, and our elders often frowned on our protest styles. That seems to be the way generations of activists relate to each other. No social justice group--or individual activist-- is perfect, but in this time of incipient fascism, it's important to identity who our real enemies are, and they're not Me Too, Black Lives Matter, or queer activists, which are the kinds of groups that term is thrown at.

[BostonTom]

I'm afraid I disagree. The term isn't thrown at actual activists. It's thrown at armchair victimologists who try to leverage their rhetoric to shame and silence other people. And I have to point out how your own rhetoric has become tinged with a grandeur that some might think delusional. It's quite a stretch from this catfish-y thread to "who the real enemies are," much less "incipient fascism" and Black Lives Matter. In fact you could argue it's precisely that kind of jump that defines the SJW.

Edited August 23, 2019 by BostonTom

[rogerG]

this catfish-y thread

Even though the subject matter is interesting for conversation, I'm a bit suspicious about the OP's story as well.

 

If a massage therapist is going to penetrate a customer without notice and without a condom, and penetration was the furthest thing from the customer's mind, what are the chances that the customer is going to be freshly douched? I don't douche before a typical massage.

 

Suppose the customer is not fully clean and the MT decides to penetrate, what on earth happens to the massage experience when the MT's cock comes out dirty? Let's be honest, freshly showered does not mean freshly douched. Maybe you can safely massage the exterior of the butt hole when freshly showered, but how smart and safe is it to penetrate with finger, elbow, or cock without some discussion first?

 

In a sensual massage, I like having my clean ass crack caressed. Some MT's are not shy about massaging this area. In the communication process, I tell my MT that I will arrive freshly showered. I specifically tell him my butt hole will be clean, but not douched. The thought of having fecal matter mix with the massage lotion and spread all over my body would sicken me. If I'm in the mood to bottom, and I know the MT is known for enjoying that, I tell the MT that I will arrive "fully prepared" for anything, but if he wants to penetrate me, he must wear a condom.

 

I realize some words like douche may not be sexy and easy to say to a stranger. Some guys are really awful putting any intimate feelings into words. If communication scares you or makes you feel uncomfortable, gay nude massage may not be a safe service to explore.

 

Speaking honestly, there are some gay guys out there (tops) who don't care about clean. I've encountered them, and they scare me. They'll stick their fingers, their tongue, or their erection into any willing hole without asking any questions. I have no interest in being touched by such men. If you don't talk to the guy you plan to get naked with, you have no idea what's on his mind. It's often said on this board and it can't be said enough, a willingness to communicate fully is the road to a perfectly safe and fully enjoyable service encounter.

[+ EVdude]

I'm a bit suspicious about the OP's story as well.

 

If a massage therapist is going to penetrate a customer without notice and without a condom, and penetration was the furthest thing from the customer's mind, what are the chances that the customer is going to be freshly douched?

Seriously, you’re suspicious because it would seem unlikely for a masseur to chance the customer not being clean?

 

I now almost always douche before a massage because so many masseurs seem not to care about sticking their fingers and tongues up there. I was quite shocked by this when I first started getting massages. For me, it’s so pleasurable but a major turnoff if I’m not clean, so I’m always prepared even the with most apparently legit LMT.

[Massageislife]

I'm afraid I disagree. The term isn't thrown at actual activists. It's thrown at armchair victimologists who try to leverage their rhetoric to shame and silence other people. And I have to point out how your own rhetoric has become tinged with a grandeur that some might think delusional. It's quite a stretch from this catfish-y thread to "who the real enemies are," much less "incipient fascism" and Black Lives Matter. In fact you could argue it's precisely that kind of jump that defines the SJW.

Tom, I addressed Deadlift's use of the term, SJW, because using slurs in serious conversations tends to end them, rather than move them forward. You appear to be trying that now by throwing the term at me. I'm sorry that you don't like the grandiosity of my rhetoric, but you have no idea of my level of "real" activism.

 

My bottom line on this is that a progressive activist, armchair or not, calling out my use of a gendered pronoun (or whatever it is that you think social justice warriors--and thank God for people whose fight is for social justice--do) is hardly my concern, particularly in this very scary current political environment. In fact, being called out has many times made meore thoughtful in how I act and speak. Your passionate attack on "SJWs" recalls for me our gay mayor Pete just last night, calling out Trump for trying to fool people into thinking that "political correctness" is their biggest enemy. It is not their enemy at all

Edited August 23, 2019 by Massageislife

[rogerG]

Seriously, you’re suspicious because it would seem unlikely for a masseur to chance the customer not being clean?

I said I was a bit suspicious. 50 minutes into a 90 minute massage he's still on his stomach when the MT decides to mount him. What happened in the remaining 40 minutes while he was in the "state of shock?"

I now almost always douche before a massage because so many masseurs seem not to care about sticking their fingers and tongues up there.

I can't afford to get a massage that often, and my personal experience does not suggest that "many masseurs seem not to care about sticking their fingers and tongues up there." I know that some gay guys are crazy, but I don't seek out the crazy ones. If I experienced an MT who, without conversation, indicated that he didn't care where he put his fingers and tongue, I would never revisit him.

 

If I had to douche before every massage, I'd stop getting massage.

[BostonTom]

I said I was a bit suspicious. 50 minutes into a 90 minute massage he's still on his stomach when the MT decides to mount him. What happened in the remaining 40 minutes while he was in the "state of shock?"

 

I can't afford to get a massage that often, and my personal experience does not suggest that "many masseurs seem not to care about sticking their fingers and tongues up there." I know that some gay guys are crazy, but I don't seek out the crazy ones. If I experienced an MT who, without conversation, indicated that he didn't care where he put his fingers and tongue, I would never revisit him.

 

If I had to douche before every massage, I'd stop getting massage.

Not only did he remain in his shocked state for 40 minutes, it didn't stop him from actually paying for the service. I've never heard of a rape victim doing that before.

[BostonTom]

Tom, I addressed Deadlift's use of the term, SJW, because using slurs in serious conversations tends to end them, rather than move them forward. You appear to be trying that now by throwing the term at me. I'm sorry that you don't like the grandiosity of my rhetoric, but you have no idea of my level of "real" activism.

 

My bottom line on this is that a progressive activist, armchair or not, calling out my use of a gendered pronoun (or whatever it is that you think social justice warriors--and thank God for people whose fight is for social justice--do) is hardly my concern, particularly in this very scary current political environment. In fact, being called out has many times made meore thoughtful in how I act and speak. Your passionate attack on "SJWs" recalls for me our gay mayor Pete just last night, calling out Trump for trying to fool people into thinking that "political correctness" is their biggest enemy. It is not their enemy at all

Did I mention what a wonderfully thoughtful person you are? You are a shining example to all of us. Your bottom line - particularly regarding bottoms - is likewise extraordinarily high; stratospheric, frankly. Since you mentioned Mayor Pete, can I also add that I find you far more admirable? Best wishes to you and your battles with President Trump in this very scary environment.

[rogerG]

Not only did he remain in his shocked state for 40 minutes, it didn't stop him from actually paying for the service. I've never heard of a rape victim doing that before.

Maybe it's time to address the elephant in the room.

 

"Solicitation of prostitution is technically the request to one person by another to perform a sexual act in exchange for a fee."

Criminal Law

 

According to criminal law in the U.S., if you hire a HE massage therapist, you are hiring a prostitute. If someone hired a prostitute, and the person hired managed to penetrate the customer while they laid together naked, especially with no words spoken, I sincerely doubt the customer, with a straight face, could make a legitimate claim of rape to a police officer. If the customer paid for the appointment after the penetration, it would make the case for rape even less credible. Perhaps absurd. I'm sure some police officers would have a good laugh.

 

The details of escort service are usually discussed between escort and customer in advance of any action. That's how many would define professional. So why is it smart to ignore communication when you hire a massage therapist who offers HE?

 

That said, if a massage therapist decides to penetrate a customer without permission or discussion, especially without a condom, and the customer has a delayed negative health reaction to that encounter, I'm quite confident the legal ramifications for that MT could run deep and treacherous.

[Massageislife]

Maybe it's time to address the elephant in the room.

 

"Solicitation of prostitution is technically the request to one person by another to perform a sexual act in exchange for a fee."

Criminal Law

 

According to criminal law in the U.S., if you hire a HE massage therapist, you are hiring a prostitute. If someone hired a prostitute, and the person hired managed to penetrate the customer while they laid together naked, especially with no words spoken, I sincerely doubt the customer, with a straight face, could make a legitimate claim of rape to a police officer. If the customer paid for the appointment after the penetration, it would make the case for rape even less credible. Perhaps absurd. I'm sure some police officers would have a good laugh.

 

The details of escort service are usually discussed between escort and customer in advance of any action. That's how many would define professional. So why is it smart to ignore communication when you hire a massage therapist who offers HE?

 

That said, if a massage therapist decides to penetrate a customer without permission or discussion, especially without a condom, and the customer has a delayed negative health reaction to that encounter, I'm quite confident the legal ramifications for that MT could run deep and treacherous.

Roger, I'm glad you added this to the discussion. The--utterly unjust--criminalization of prostitution is another factor that differentiates erotic m4m massage from other types of sexual encounters. The client and even more the masseur are in legal jeopardy for being together at all. It means all parties have different and serious responsibilities to consider. It really was the high-minded "burn the witch" posts about exposing or even reporting to the police the masseur described in the original post.

 

I agree that the police would probably reject--for anti-sex work and homophobic reasons--any plea by the client in the original post for legal redress, but I think, given the initial description of the post, that the client would have been out of line to go to the police anyway. For what it's worth, I'm not sure that a "delayed negative health reaction" would make any difference in the police's reaction, but if it did, that would also be wrong. A person who has unprotected sex (not a dick slipped in and then withdrawn immediately when the person objects (which is raises the difficult question of consent discussed in this thread, but not what is described in the initial post)) has to examine why they did it--I have had to ask myself such questions--not run to the police.

[rogerG]

For what it's worth, I'm not sure that a "delayed negative health reaction" would make any difference in the police's reaction

I wrote that line with a personal injury lawyer in mind, not a police officer.

[Massageislife]

I wrote that line with a personal injury lawyer in mind, not a police officer.

I understand, but my point is that someone who knowingly engages in unsafe sex shouldn't be running to the law if they become infected. It's a time for self-reflection and change

[pubic_assistance]

Apparently I need an anatomy lesson. I've never met a MAN who's asshole was that loose that I could just slip it in with no preparation, no warning and no consent. I don't buy this story. Sounds like catfishing.

[rogerG]

who knowingly engages in unsafe sex

Knowingly is the key word. If you take the OP at his word, he did not know that the MT was going to penetrate him. Even if he said no thanks after he realized what was happening, the penetration however brief can be problematic on several levels, especially absent communication.

 

I've never met a MAN who's asshole was that loose that I could just slip it in with no preparation

You don't need an anatomy lesson. However, some guys get loose much easier than others. All it takes is a good technique on the part of the MT. I speak from experience.

[Massageislife]

Knowingly is the key word. If you take the OP at his word, he did not know that the MT was going to penetrate him. Even if he said no thanks after he realized what was happening, the penetration however brief can be problematic on several levels, especially absent communication.

 

 

You don't need an anatomy lesson. However, some guys get loose much easier than others. All it takes is a good technique on the part of the MT. I speak from experience.

 

Roger, yeah, I guess that's the central discussion point here: the moment of penetration. The OP says the masseur didn't ask to penetrate him, and the OP was surprised when he did. The OP says the masseur was on top of him, with his penis brushing his ass. It seems that most of us think that the masseur should have explicitly asked, but the question is whether in the context of an erotic massage, when the masseur has climbed on top and is brushing his penis against an ass, implied consent could have reasonably--not necessarily correctly--have been inferred by the masseur, i.e., whether there was communication of a non-verbal sort (asking for an erotic massage (which is verbal), welcoming or at least accepting the masseur climbing on top, not commenting when the penis was brushing against the ass) . I understand differing answers to the question, especially the view that it's problematic what the masseur did.

 

The other aspect of the question that is complicated is whether one's judgement of the non-verbally consensual moment of penetration applies past that moment to what the OP suggests was fucking until orgasm. I don't consider someone sticking their dick in my ass without verbal permission as "engaging in sex." Unless it's desired despite the lack of verbal permission, it's either sexual assault or an egregiously misreading of the situation by the penetrator. Allowing the penetration to continue into fucking until orgasm, however--unless there is some kind of coercion involved (which the OP does not describe)--might be properly described as "engaging in sex."

 

The best comments in this thread ask us to consider what we're expecting from "massage," what we learn about our sexuality in sexual interactions with masseurs, and what boundaries we respect, even as we are demanding that our own be respected.

[rogerG]

I don't consider someone sticking their dick in my ass without verbal permission as "engaging in sex."

I'm not a lawyer. Not sure how a jury or court of law would judge this. If you're paying a MT to give you a HE, you're agreeing to an engagement of sex for a fee. If you allow a MT to penetrate you during a massage without speaking up, it seems to me you're tacitly agreeing to a more serious engagement of sex.

 

The part of the OP's story about the MT ejaculating only begs more questions. Where did he ejaculate? Did penetration cause him to ejaculate? How long was his cock in the ass, etc? Since the OP is not offering more detail, the intention of the thread smells of catfish, even though much of the information shared can be useful to readers.

[pubic_assistance]

The intention of the thread smells of catfish

Totally agree.

[Massageislife]

Did I mention what a wonderfully thoughtful person you are? You are a shining example to all of us. Your bottom line - particularly regarding bottoms - is likewise extraordinarily high; stratospheric, frankly. Since you mentioned Mayor Pete, can I also add that I find you far more admirable? Best wishes to you and your battles with President Trump in this very scary environment.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5d6048c5e4b02cc97c8d70f2

[wDarling]

I hope I don’t offend by bringing this back to age, but I do think it is a factor here. A lot of younger guys are all taking PREP and Truvada and attitudes amongst younger people, and certain circles of gay men at any age (probably more so in cities), are very different about condomless sex now than they used to be even a few years ago. As in many guys are having sex without condoms in all types of situations.

 

I actually had something similar to this happen to me last year. But I asked the masseur to stop (not blaming you or anything for being in shock and unable to say something) after a few seconds after he entered me, and I asked him if he has condoms. And I told him I’m not on PREP and he was pretty surprised. I guess if I wasn’t as aware about what other guys are doing, I would be shocked that he would have sex with me without a condom, and mentally I would have reacted to the situation differently, but honestly I wasn’t upset and I’m sorry the OP felt different experiencing something similar.

 

So I’m not sure what to make of how people are labeling the OPs situation. My masseur didn’t ask me if he could fuck me, but I could tell that’s where things were headed (also grazing his dick on my ass). And again because I knew attitudes about condomless sex have changed, I wasn’t as shocked by what was happening. I went to his house knowing any type of sex was a possibility (we didn’t agree to anything ahead of time, I didn’t want to).

[rogerG]

PREP and Truvada

Prep and Truvada don't protect customers from std's. If your MT is known for penetration without a condom and he's penetrating 10 customer asses a week, how long can he possibly work before he needs to see a doctor? How long before his customers need to see a doctor, too?

[+ EVdude]

Prep and Truvada don't protect customers from std's. If your MT is known for penetration without a condom and he's penetrating 10 customer asses a week, how long can he possibly work before he needs to see a doctor? How long before his customers need to see a doctor, too?

 

Prep and Truvada don't protect customers from std's. If your MT is known for sucking, getting sucked or penetration without a condom and he's sucking, getting sucked or penetrating 10 customer dicks/asses a week, how long can he possibly work before he needs to see a doctor? How long before his customers need to see a doctor, too?

 

Yes, a tad beyond the subject at hand, but let’s do the full disclosure reality of our adventures. The antibiotic shot for gonorrhea is one of the most painful I’ve ever had. At least the masseur was a standup guy and called after seeing his doctor.

[BostonTom]

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5d6048c5e4b02cc97c8d70f2

Better saddle up that white horse.