If you've tried therapy, was it worth the $$$?

[+ FreshFluff]

Is it bad that I fantasized about him? We're not even at the transference stage yet!

 

Short answer: Yes. Be careful before choosing a male model type as your MD--any kind of MD.

 

Sure, attraction livens up the sessions, but it feels weird to pay hundreds of dollars an hour for the privilege of having a crush. It feels doubly weird to witness a parade of (mostly male) clients who may be there for the same reason. (I don't know his orientation, but if I had to guess, I'd say he's straight.)

[+ Gar1eth]

Short answer: Yes. Be careful before choosing a male model type as your MD.

 

Sure, attraction livens up the sessions, but it feels weird to pay hundreds of dollars an hour for the privilege of having a crush. It feels doubly weird to witness a parade of (mostly male) clients who may be there for the same reason. (I don't know his orientation, but if I had to guess, I'd say he's straight.)

 

BTW, this man seems quite insecure, at least over the short time I knew him.

Just what everyone needs-an insecure therapist.

 

I may have mentioned this before. But I’ve had had some fairly attractive gay male therapists-and if they weren’t attractive in absolute terms, they were still attractive to me. And what I found out was just as bad as me feeling some attraction for them was how I would always think about how easier it was for them to find guys because they were a lot better looking than I was. It’s a lot easier being gay when you know there will be others attracted to you.

 

I had one therapist who said he knew he was gay at a young age-maybe 9 or 10. Now I didn’t grill him on what his understanding of being gay was at 9 or 10. And he was a little older than I was -so it’s not like he grew up in today’s society where a precocious youngster might know more about things than the typical youngster of 4o or 5o years ago. But in addition to saying he knew he was gay. He also said he had always wanted to be gay. He thought even as a youngster that being gay was as better than being straight. Now as someone struggling with being gay-#1. I had trouble believing him at face value. Considering society at large-and growing up in the 1960/70’s-I had trouble seeing him as being so enlightened. But maybe he was a socially evolved prodigy. Even if he was telling me the truth, I don’t know if it was the best thing to tell someone like me -someone struggling with being gay. It seems like just the thing that could (and did) make me me feel even more guilty about not being able to accept myself. Here I was in my late 40’s, and I couldn’t come to terms with myself. And here this wunderkind had loved being gay since childhood.

 

I think sometimes gay therapists-even the ones that struggled to accept themselves-have a bit of the ‘true believer’ attitude. While undoubtedly accepting oneself as gay is healthier, many times these ‘true believers’ seem a lot like missionaries wanting to lead me to the promised land of accepting being gay. That’s not the right tack to take with me.

 

Gman

 

PS I just had my 1st session last week with a new therapist. She’s a lesbian. The last time-and I think only time- I had a lesbian therapist was 17 years ago. We had two visits. She said at the second session that the time I wanted to meet was inconvenient for her, and she wanted me to meet with a social worker (male) she supervised. That guy had stereotypically gay mannerisms-not a good match for me at all. I only saw him once-maybe twice. I hope it goes better this time around.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Gar1eth

[MikeBiDude]

After seeing the same therapist for about 5 years....we recently came to a mutual agreement that it was ok for me to stop visiting. We had a good run, I’m in a whole different frame of mind, all good.

 

Two things got me thinking about stopping a) we had cut our visits from weekly to a couple times a month or sometimes monthly and b) I was forced to change insurance companies and my co-payment quadrupled because she wasn’t in the new network.

[LivingnLA]

Just what everyone needs-an insecure therapist.

 

I may have mentioned this before. But I’ve had had some fairly attractive gay male therapists-and if they weren’t attractive in absolute terms, they were still attractive to me. And what I found out was just as bad as me feeling some attraction for them was how I would always think about how easier it was for them to find guys because they were a lot better looking than I was. It’s a lot easier being gay when you know there will be others attracted to you.

 

I had one therapist who said he knew he was gay at a young age-maybe 9 or 10. Now I didn’t grill him on what his understanding of being gay was at 9 or 10. And he was a little older than I was -so it’s not like he grew up in today’s society where a precocious youngster might know more about things than the typical youngster of 4o or 5o years ago. But in addition to saying he knew he was gay. He also said he had always wanted to be gay. He thought even as a youngster that being gay was as better than being straight. Now as someone struggling with being gay-#1. I had trouble believing him at face value. Considering society at large-and growing up in the 1960/70’s-I had trouble seeing him as being so enlightened. But maybe he was a socially evolved prodigy. Even if he was telling me the truth, I don’t know if it was the best thing to tell someone like me -someone struggling with being gay. It seems like just the thing that could (and did) make me me feel even more guilty about not being able to accept myself. Here I was in my late 40’s, and I couldn’t come to terms with myself. And here this wunderkind had loved being gay since childhood.

 

I think sometimes gay therapists-even the ones that struggled to accept themselves-have a bit of the ‘true believer’ attitude. While undoubtedly accepting oneself as gay is healthier, many times these ‘true believers’ seem a lot like missionaries wanting to lead me to the promised land of accepting being gay. That’s not the right tack to take with me.

 

Gman

 

PS I just had my 1st session last week with a new therapist. She’s a lesbian. The last time-and I think only time- I had a lesbian therapist was 17 years ago. We had two visits. She said at the second session that the time I wanted to meet was inconvenient for her, and she wanted me to meet with a social worker (male) she supervised. That guy had stereotypically gay mannerisms-not a good match for me at all. I only saw him once-maybe twice. I hope it goes better this time around.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. It was very inappropriate for your therapist to share his personal experiences from childhood. It was even more inappropriate that he did it in a way that created guilt and associated negative thinking. It sounds like he might've been attempting to create a "role model" or something for you, which is also inappropriate. I hope you have a much better experience with your new therapist.

[JayCeeKy]

Therapy sessions should focus on your problems and issues - it is not a time for the therapist to process his own thoughts or affirm his own life decisions. It's your time and your dime. There are rare occasions when a therapist, for therapeutic reasons only, might share some personal information or experience, but in doing so he always runs the risk of "giving advice" rather than helping you to develop the insight to make your own decisions. I provided therapy for many years and clients usually "vote with their feet" as to the efficacy of the therapy they are receiving.

[+ Gar1eth]

Therapy sessions should focus on your problems and issues - it is not a time for the therapist to process his own thoughts or affirm his own life decisions. It's your time and your dime. There are rare occasions when a therapist, for therapeutic reasons only, might share some personal information or experience, but in doing so he always runs the risk of "giving advice" rather than helping you to develop the insight to make your own decisions. I provided therapy for many years and clients usually "vote with their feet" as to the efficacy of the therapy they are receiving.

 

I liked the guy but he was very sarcastic. He told me that he reflected what he was given. And I’ll admit to being a bit on the sarcastic side myself-in certain situations. But I finally did vote with my feet. While this isn’t the only therapist this has happened with-but it got to the point that I was more depressed after my meetings with him than I was before. I realize therapy can stir up emotions. But there was never any resolution to what the therapy sessions stirred up in me.

 

Gman

[alkan]

I worked in an end-of-life care team for a while and it was mandatory for us to attend therapy sessions. As far as I remember we were assigned a therapist (we did not have to pay) and in other ways the sessions were very carefully structured. Looking back on it now, I suspect it was all the more useful because of the structure. But I have also been to several other types of therapy for other reasons, as I posted in another thread, with mixed results. The least successful was hypnotherapy (c $50 for a forty minute session in 1990ish). I think the course was supposed to last for six sessions and I think I got to four before giving up. I didn't blame the therapist (much), I just don't think I am a good hypnoclient. Has anyone here experienced hypnotherapy and what did you think?

[+ FreshFluff]

I liked the guy but he was very sarcastic. He told me that he reflected what he was given. And I’ll admit to being a bit on the sarcastic side myself-in certain situations. But I finally did vote with my feet. While this isn’t the only therapist this has happened with-but it got to the point that I was more depressed after my meetings with him than I was before. I realize therapy can stir up emotions. But there was never any resolution to what the therapy sessions stirred up in me.

 

Gman

 

This happened to me as well. Unlike Gman's guy, he never talks about his own experiences, but he keeps trying to get me to talk about what I think of him. This is apparently part of whatever method he's using. Also, he spends between a third and half the time talking, which is a lot in a forty-five minute session. He believes this is therapeutic, but it never seemed to help me and inevitably made me feel worse afterwards.

 

It's a shame because he's a brilliant guy, but the method he's using isn't a good match.

 

Gman, I hope that your new female therapist will be a better match for you.

 

I've had some great fantasies about him though and even better dreams afterwards.

Edited June 12, 2018 by FreshFluff

[+ Gar1eth]

Well I quit my latest therapist on Wednesday. We hadn't actually met that many times-probably about 3 or 4 times. I just didn't feel like it was going anywhere. My family really wanted me in therapy. And not just them. For the last several years, I had been thinking it was time to try out therapy again. But it just didn't seem to be going anywhere. I haven't told my family yet. They probably aren't going to be happy. To tell you the truth, I'm not happy about it either. I was questioning myself even as I told the therapist that I didn't want to continue. But it just felt like a waste of time. And my quitting wasn't due to being on the verge of a breakthrough. It was hearing her say the same things as all my other therapists.

 

Possibly I should have given it longer. But she said the same types of things as most of the others. I'm not saying what she said isn't true. The things she said are what they are all trained to say and believe. But while I can acknowledge that what they say may be a truth, it's not necessarily the way I believe. And while I understand that their way would probably be healthier for me, I don't seem to be able to make myself come over to their way of thinking.

 

The whole situation reminds me of something I remember learning in beginning physics in college. For the Greeks, the natural state of an object was to be at rest. But that's kind of a dead end concept and doesn't really lead to any ideas/experimentation. Then Newton or someone came along and decided that the natural state of an object was to be in motion. And that objects are only at rest due to other forces working on them. From what I remember the book saying-both viewpoints are valid. But the second conceptualization leads to more ideas that can be tested. Well to extend the metaphor to myself, I'm more of a "natural state is to be at rest " guy. I'm not really happy about it. But it's me.

 

It's very difficult being the type of person that neither therapy nor medication helps. I'm just glad I'm not (at this point anyway) addicted to anything because I don't think I'd do well with a 12 Step Program either.

 

I did leave things open with the therapist. I told her I'd call her back for an appt if I changed my mind.

 

Gman

Edited July 26, 2018 by Gar1eth

[LADoug1]

Sometimes talk therapy is more effective if a person also works with a psychiatrist. The proper medication (if called for) can help put you in the mindset to work with a psychologist. It also helps immensely if both professionals can consult with each other. Be careful though-psych meds should be prescribed by a trained psychiatrist and not a GP. Also be advised that both competent mental health professionals are extremely hard to find. Take it from one who knows.

[JayCeeKy]

Sometimes talk therapy is more effective if a person also works with a psychiatrist. The proper medication (if called for) can help put you in the mindset to work with a psychologist. It also helps immensely if both professionals can consult with each other. Be careful though-psych meds should be prescribed by a trained psychiatrist and not a GP. Also be advised that both competent mental health professionals are extremely hard to find. Take it from one who knows.

 

Psychotropic meds should be prescribed by a Board Certified psychiatrist. However, meds which are Rx for depression, after a patient has been stable on anti-depressants for at least 6-12 months, can generally be Rx by a family doc - it usually saves $$$ for the patient and it frees up time for the psychiatrist to see patients with more complicated Dx. Patients with Bipolar D/O should always be seen by a psychiatrist since Bipolar meds often require blood level checks - and b/c patients with Bipolar are notorious for going off their meds (although these patients don't like the depressive side of their illness, they often look forward to the manic episode which gives them a sense of power, creativity, and increased energy - it's also the time when they often end up in the psych ward or police station. Also, Bipolar meds often produce "emotional flattening or emotional numbness" and often have some nasty side-effects).

 

As far as talk therapy, it would be wise to ask around for recommendations. However, a particular therapist may be excellent for client X but not client Y. Some therapists specialize in certain therapeutic perspectives and interventions (e.g. CBT, DBT, Rogerian, Solution-Focused, etc.) that may be efficacious for Depressive disorders but not for Personality disorders (e.g. you wouldn't go to an Orthopedist for an ear infection). There are various stages of the therapeutic process, so give your therapist time to establish a therapeutic relationship and to implement and monitor various interventions. Unless you find your therapist totally repugnant or off-putting (and doesn't actually take time to "hear" you), give him/her at least several sessions before you jump ship. Remember that the best predictor of a positive therapeutic outcome is the therapeutic relationship - if people like and trust their therapist, they generally get better (over time). However, if you're not making any progress after 8-12 sessions, please discuss this lack of progress with your therapist for either a change in interventions, or perhaps a referral to another therapist. A competent therapist will not take this as a personal rejection and will welcome a patient's desire to "get better."

 

Finally, most talk therapy is paid for by insurance. These insurance companies meticulously read the scientific outcome studies about which therapeutic interventions are most effective. And many outcome studies indicate that time-limited, cognitive-behavioral interventions are the most cost-effective. Therefore, most insurance will authorize 12-16 sessions but require documentation of progress or change in treatment goals after the initial approval. Unless you are willing to pay out-of-pocket, keep in mind that spending years in therapy (and sometimes clients/therapists get stuck in "problem-of-the-day" sessions instead of working on treatment goals) are a thing of the past.

[Kenny]

Possibly I should have given it longer. But she said the same types of things as most of the others. I'm not saying what she said isn't true. The things she said are what they are all trained to say and believe. But while I can acknowledge that what they say may be a truth, it's not necessarily the way I believe. And while I understand that their way would probably be healthier for me, I don't seem to be able to make myself come over to their way of thinking.

Yes, perhaps you should have given it more time.

 

Finding a compatible therapist is not easy. (See JayCeeKy.) But how many years — or decades — did it take for you to get into this psychological mess? To get to a point where you are convinced that your belief might be wrong, as you say, but dammit it’s your belief and how dare that professional presume that the truth would serve you better? (Do you do your own plumbing, car repair and home tech servicing?) It won’t take as many years — or decades — to get out of your mess, but it will certainly take considerable time.

 

Especially when you dig in your heels and resist.

[Kippy]

Yes, perhaps you should have given it more time.

 

Finding a compatible therapist is not easy. (See JayCeeKy.) But how many years — or decades — did it take for you to get into this psychological mess? To get to a point where you are convinced that your belief might be wrong, as you say, but dammit it’s your belief and how dare that professional presume that the truth would serve you better? (Do you do your own plumbing, car repair and home tech servicing?) It won’t take as many years — or decades — to get out of your mess, but it will certainly take considerable time.

 

Especially when you dig in your heels and resist.

 

Doctor Ken--quack at large!

[Kenny]

Doctor Ken--quack at large!

Good one! What a knee-slapper! Haw-haw-haw!

[+ Gar1eth]

Sometimes talk therapy is more effective if a person also works with a psychiatrist. The proper medication (if called for) can help put you in the mindset to work with a psychologist. It also helps immensely if both professionals can consult with each other. Be careful though-psych meds should be prescribed by a trained psychiatrist and not a GP. Also be advised that both competent mental health professionals are extremely hard to find. Take it from one who knows.

 

Psychotropic meds should be prescribed by a Board Certified psychiatrist. However, meds which are Rx for depression, after a patient has been stable on anti-depressants for at least 6-12 months, can generally be Rx by a family doc - it usually saves $$$ for the patient and it frees up time for the psychiatrist to see patients with more complicated Dx. Patients with Bipolar D/O should always be seen by a psychiatrist since Bipolar meds often require blood level checks - and b/c patients with Bipolar are notorious for going off their meds (although these patients don't like the depressive side of their illness, they often look forward to the manic episode which gives them a sense of power, creativity, and increased energy - it's also the time when they often end up in the psych ward or police station. Also, Bipolar meds often produce "emotional flattening or emotional numbness" and often have some nasty side-effects).

 

As far as talk therapy, it would be wise to ask around for recommendations. However, a particular therapist may be excellent for client X but not client Y. Some therapists specialize in certain therapeutic perspectives and interventions (e.g. CBT, DBT, Rogerian, Solution-Focused, etc.) that may be efficacious for Depressive disorders but not for Personality disorders (e.g. you wouldn't go to an Orthopedist for an ear infection). There are various stages of the therapeutic process, so give your therapist time to establish a therapeutic relationship and to implement and monitor various interventions. Unless you find your therapist totally repugnant or off-putting (and doesn't actually take time to "hear" you), give him/her at least several sessions before you jump ship. Remember that the best predictor of a positive therapeutic outcome is the therapeutic relationship - if people like and trust their therapist, they generally get better (over time). However, if you're not making any progress after 8-12 sessions, please discuss this lack of progress with your therapist for either a change in interventions, or perhaps a referral to another therapist. A competent therapist will not take this as a personal rejection and will welcome a patient's desire to "get better."

 

Finally, most talk therapy is paid for by insurance. These insurance companies meticulously read the scientific outcome studies about which therapeutic interventions are most effective. And many outcome studies indicate that time-limited, cognitive-behavioral interventions are the most cost-effective. Therefore, most insurance will authorize 12-16 sessions but require documentation of progress or change in treatment goals after the initial approval. Unless you are willing to pay out-of-pocket, keep in mind that spending years in therapy (and sometimes clients/therapists get stuck in "problem-of-the-day" sessions instead of working on treatment goals) are a thing of the past.

 

I'm not interested in medication. I've been tried on three different medications 4 times in the past. They had absolutely no effect on my mood for good or ill. But they all led to unpleasant side effects of one type or another. Since I was prescribed them, there have been more and more questions posed on how effective they really are. Plus, at least from a NYT article a few months back, it seems that withdrawal symptoms can be more severe than were initially recognized.

 

https://nyti.ms/2GK795C?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

I can't say that the NYT article was the reason I'm not willing to try medications again. I had already decided long ago I wasn't interested in taking medications again unless there was a strong guarantee that the agent would be effective without annoying side effects. But it was nice to be able to point the article out when the subject of medications was brought up by therapists.

 

I've read about CBT. And I think a previous therapist I had was using those techniques. I wasn't a fan.

 

This isn't my first go around with therapy. Maybe one day I'll meet the perfect therapist for me. But I don't think this one was it. Or, as I think very likely, it's more probable that just as medications haven't worked for me counseling doesn't work either. Not everyone can be helped. I'm tired of coming out of a session either feeling it was useless or feeling more depressed than I was when I went in.

 

Gman

[+ OliverSaks]

I'm not interested in medication. I've been tried on three different medications 4 times in the past. They had absolutely no effect on my mood for good or ill. But they all led to unpleasant side effects of one type or another. Since I was prescribed them, there have been more and more questions posed on how effective they really are. Plus, at least from a NYT article a few months back, it seems that withdrawal symptoms can be more severe than were initially recognized.

 

https://nyti.ms/2GK795C?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

I can't say that the NYT article was the reason I'm not willing to try medications again. I had already decided long ago I wasn't interested in taking medications again unless there was a strong guarantee that the agent would be effective without annoying side effects. But it was nice to be able to point the article out when the subject of medications was brought up by therapists.

 

I've read about CBT. And I think a previous therapist I had was using those techniques. I wasn't a fan.

 

This isn't my first go around with therapy. Maybe one day I'll meet the perfect therapist for me. But I don't think this one was it. Or, as I think very likely, it's more probable that just as medications haven't worked for me counseling doesn't work either. Not everyone can be helped. I'm tired of coming out of a session either feeling it was useless or feeling more depressed than I was when I went in.

 

Gman

I’m sorry you feel that things are futile.

 

There is a lot of hope in the psychiatry field about new drugs in the pipeline that modulate the glutamate system. They treat depression differently than the many, many drugs that already exist in the world of antidepressants.

 

Ketamine is one such drug (and a few derivatives are in later stage drug trials (esketamine; J&J drug I think) - a significant proportion of non-responders to the traditional meds for depression (SSRI/SNRI) find that they respond with ketamine, for instance.

 

I’ve been treated for depression with a slew of meds, for the last ten years, and so far this has been the best, with no sexual side effects (or any side effects...)

I understand being hopeless with therapy and meds, but there simply IS reason to have hope. No medication is perfect, but better meds (at least for some people) are coming!

[LivingnLA]

This isn't my first go around with therapy. Maybe one day I'll meet the perfect therapist for me. But I don't think this one was it. Or, as I think very likely, it's more probable that just as medications haven't worked for me counseling doesn't work either. Not everyone can be helped. I'm tired of coming out of a session either feeling it was useless or feeling more depressed than I was when I went in.

 

Gman

 

@Gar1eth, I'm sorry things didn't work out. 3-4 sessions though is barely getting started. Forgive me, I tend to be blunt, are you sure you actually want therapy to work for you? It feels like you didn't even give it a chance. When I read your comments, to me, they seem to come from a perspective that has foreclosed on the possibility of talk therapy working. If that's true--even a little bit--then talk therapy won't work because on some level it's being sabotaged and a self-fulfilling and self-reinforcing behavior is in effect. That behavior must be overcome to make progress.

 

https://psychcentral.com/lib/therapists-spill-11-myths-about-therapy/?all=1

 

Myths 1 and 8 seem the most applicable after the comments I've read. But, as with all things, I know very little and what I have to go on is some forum text that lacks a vast amount of context. If I've misread or misinterpreted anything, my apologies. I don't know your issues and challenges so my advice is worth about as much as the paper it isn't printed on. Take it or leave it.

 

I'm not a huge fan of treating very smart people because they're frequently their own worst critics/enemies and they rarely give talk therapy a chance because "they know it all." Just as the Great Gazoo thought he knew it all, it took interacting with "dumb dumbs" to learn how horribly wrong he was about many things and he only did that after being exiled and forced to confront his failures.

 

CBT isn't always effective with smart people because they don't fully engage. They don't take it seriously and their skepticism becomes a massive road block. Instead, I prefer DBT and especially the mindfulness exercises to stop "overthinking" in its tracks. I thought this was an interesting reply to this quora question and here's a site by people who've been through DBT, if you're curious.

 

https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-persons-intelligence-IQ-affect-response-rates-of-depression-to-cognitive-behavioral-therapy

 

I'll leave you with this little gem from research into how smart people's preexisting biases shape their worldview just like less smart people:

 

"Being smart may not lead you to the right answer. Being smart enables you to critically evaluate and reject evidence inconsistent with your view. Being smart makes you better at supporting your preferred answer."

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mental-mishaps/201408/smart-people-dumb-decisions

Edited July 26, 2018 by LivingnLA

[Golem]

@GMan, I'm sorry things didn't work out. 3-4 sessions though is barely getting started.

Very true! But the flip side, @Gar1eth -- and I'm working purely off what I see of your personality here -- is that 3-4 sessions could also be giving too much time to a therapist who's not a good fit, and burning you out. Maybe not; but it can be very easy to feel like "well, this could be better than the last one, I should see how it goes"...

 

In my experience, if someone is feeling burnt out on therapy and therapists, that's actually when it's most important for them to shop around and find someone they feel connected to after one meeting. One meeting obviously isn't enough time to really let a therapeutic relationship unfold itself -- but it is enough to have an instinctual response to their style. Do you wish they said more (or said less)? Were they too tentative (or too direct)? Do their own idiosyncratic facial expressions put you at ease, or do they make you feel awkward? Do the tchotchkes they choose for their office give you good vibes, or do they make you wonder WTF?

 

While you could absolutely have a great connection, eventually, with someone who didn't toot your horns on day one -- you don't have to wait and find out, especially if you are not feeling very patient with the concept of therapy itself.

[Golem]

But it just felt like a waste of time. And my quitting wasn't due to being on the verge of a breakthrough. It was hearing her say the same things as all my other therapists.

Also, this may be an obvious question (if so, my bad) -- but did you tell her these things? That it felt like a waste of time and that she was saying all the same things as your past therapists? Because at that point, any therapist worth their socks is going to take a step back and say, 'OK, let's talk about that. What would you like to get out of this time, and what are the things that we've all said that you especially didn't find helpful? Maybe my style is simply a bad fit, and I can suggest another approach that you might like better. Or maybe we are getting stuck on decoy issues, instead of addressing the stuff that really matters to you.'

[+ FreshFluff]

I had to rip off the bandaid and let my therapist go. I held on for a while and hoped it would get better, but eventually it had to happen. He is a good guy, but there was a lot of friction between us, and he said some things that hurt me. (He later insisted that he had meant the opposite, but he remembered every word of the conversation so he must have known it was a problem. He responded almost like a defense attorney would, and it bothered me.) I often walked out feeling worse. Also, I can't really afford to keep spending that much money in the long run.

 

I decided to end it via email, because I knew he'd press me hard for reasons. Initially, he responded to my email with "Thanks for the payment. I understand, and let me know if I can be helpful in the future." But ten minutes later, he sent another email, saying he'd be happy to refer me if the issue was financial and invited me to "reach out" and talk to him if the issue wasn't financial too. I decided not to respond.

 

This guy definitely put effort into his job , and on some level, I like him. So it was hard to let it go. But the financial situation plus the lack of chemistry forced my hand.

 

Gman, I understand where you're coming from. I guess you could talk to her, but if she's saying the same thing that everyone else has said, then there probably isn't much she can do .

 

The whole situation reminds me of something I remember learning in beginning physics in college. For the Greeks, the natural state of an object was to be at rest. But that's kind of a dead end concept and doesn't really lead to any ideas/experimentation. Then Newton or someone came along and decided that the natural state of an object was to be in motion. And that objects are only at rest due to other forces working on them. From what I remember the book saying-both viewpoints are valid. But the second conceptualization leads to more ideas that can be tested. Well to extend the metaphor to myself, I'm more of a "natural state is to be at rest " guy. I'm not really happy about it. But it's me.

 

But you are in a sort of inertial motion, Gman. You've moved, met men on Grindr (whether you met them in person or not), and so on. Now the question is whether you want to change the direction and speed, or rather, whether the disadvantages of doing so outweigh the advantages.

Edited July 27, 2018 by FreshFluff

[JayCeeKy]

As others have intimated, Gman, you are not the problem. The "problem" is that you have not yet found the right therapist.

 

Also, you may be misunderstanding the purpose of therapy. "Insight" into your problems might be helpful, but I've never found insight to be very therapeutic. A person may know that he is unhappy b/c his mom never gave him much love, but how does that knowledge improve his life? Therapy is actually about one thing: CHANGE. If you're not changing things about yourself (how you think, how you act, how you live your daily life), nothing's gonna happen. And, most people (myself included) don't want to change. Even if our lives are miserable, better the devil we know. But, IMHO, if you really want to get better, you're gonna have to start changing some things. I'm not sure what those changes are -- but that is what you and your therapist need to find out.

 

It's not a cliché - if nothing changes, nothing changes. True story: as a therapist, I worked with a middle-aged man years ago who was horribly depressed - he had been laid off from his job and had no family support. He lost his will to live. He said he had no purpose in life. I was pretty sure he was going to end it all. At the end of one session, I asked him to "do something different this week" - I don't care what it is, just do something different." Lo and behold, he went to the community center where he sat and watched others play ping-pong. Then, someone challenged him to a game. Next thing you know he's going every day to play ping-pong. He started making a few friends. He started to gain weight. And for the first time, I saw him smile. He still had his "down periods" but they were fewer and further apart. Small changes sometimes make a big difference.

[+ Gar1eth]

As others have intimated, Gman, you are not the problem. The "problem" is that you have not yet found the right therapist.

 

Also, you may be misunderstanding the purpose of therapy. "Insight" into your problems might be helpful, but I've never found insight to be very therapeutic. A person may know that he is unhappy b/c his mom never gave him much love, but how does that knowledge improve his life? Therapy is actually about one thing: CHANGE. If you're not changing things about yourself (how you think, how you act, how you live your daily life), nothing's gonna happen. And, most people (myself included) don't want to change. Even if our lives are miserable, better the devil we know. But, IMHO, if you really want to get better, you're gonna have to start changing some things. I'm not sure what those changes are -- but that is what you and your therapist need to find out.

 

It's not a cliché - if nothing changes, nothing changes. True story: as a therapist, I worked with a middle-aged man years ago who was horribly depressed - he had been laid off from his job and had no family support. He lost his will to live. He said he had no purpose in life. I was pretty sure he was going to end it all. At the end of one session, I asked him to "do something different this week" - I don't care what it is, just do something different." Lo and behold, he went to the community center where he sat and watched others play ping-pong. Then, someone challenged him to a game. Next thing you know he's going every day to play ping-pong. He started making a few friends. He started to gain weight. And for the first time, I saw him smile. He still had his "down periods" but they were fewer and further apart. Small changes sometimes make a big difference.

 

 

While I'm not sure your supposition about me not finding the right therapist is correct-after all since they all tell me the same type of things, and give me pretty much the same type of suggestions, then an outlier therapist with a totally different viewpoint might be suspect.

 

Other than that your assessment of me is probably pretty spot on. Your comments about change reminded me of a character quote in the book "Prince Caspian" by CS Lewis. I had been thinking the quote was from "The Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe, but I was wrong. The scene is the Pevenseys, who were former rulers of Narnia, have returned to Narnia after 1000's of years. Not everyone is pro-Pevensey. But they meet a badger who is a Pevensey partisan even after all this time.

 

The badger declares, "“I’m a beast, I am, and a Badger what’s more. We don’t change. We hold on.”

 

So it looks like I'm a beast. What kind of beast you ask? Apparently I'm a badger. And I don't really think I can change. I've never been able to fully acclimatize over going bald 27 years ago. If I can't adjust to that, I don't have much hope for overcoming more important attitudes.

 

Gman

[LADoug1]

I'm not interested in medication. I've been tried on three different medications 4 times in the past. They had absolutely no effect on my mood for good or ill. But they all led to unpleasant side effects of one type or another. Since I was prescribed them, there have been more and more questions posed on how effective they really are. Plus, at least from a NYT article a few months back, it seems that withdrawal symptoms can be more severe than were initially recognized.

 

https://nyti.ms/2GK795C?smid=nytcore-ios-share

 

I can't say that the NYT article was the reason I'm not willing to try medications again. I had already decided long ago I wasn't interested in taking medications again unless there was a strong guarantee that the agent would be effective without annoying side effects. But it was nice to be able to point the article out when the subject of medications was brought up by therapists.

 

I've read about CBT. And I think a previous therapist I had was using those techniques. I wasn't a fan.

 

This isn't my first go around with therapy. Maybe one day I'll meet the perfect therapist for me. But I don't think this one was it. Or, as I think very likely, it's more probable that just as medications haven't worked for me counseling doesn't work either. Not everyone can be helped. I'm tired of coming out of a session either feeling it was useless or feeling more depressed than I was when I went in.

 

Gman

 

I’m so sorry that you’ve had so much difficulty and frustration. I can commiserate. It took me 20 years to find the right therapist and a combination of (semi) effective medications. This after being over medicated and falling asleep while driving. I smashed into a car and was arrested for DUI. The psychiatrist never took partial responsibility despite my having reported numerous times the meds were making me too sleepy. Didn’t help my depression to say the least.

Edited July 27, 2018 by LADoug1

[LivingnLA]

So it looks like I'm a beast. What kind of beast you ask? Apparently I'm a badger. And I don't really think I can change. I've never been able to fully acclimatize over going bald 27 years ago. If I can't adjust to that, I don't have much hope for overcoming more important attitudes.

 

I don't know your life, but it's entirely possible for someone to have experienced one or more traumatizing life-event that results in PTS and develops into PTSD due to the chronic nature of struggling with sexuality, identity, and more in our culture.

 

"'The trauma for gay men is the prolonged nature of it,' says William Elder, a sexual trauma researcher and psychologist. 'If you experience one traumatic event, you have the kind of PTSD that can be resolved in four to six months of therapy. But if you experience years and years of small stressors—little things where you think, Was that because of my sexuality?—that can be even worse.'" ~

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

 

Fatalism is deeply corrosive to growth and progress. It's a challenging attitude for talk-therapy to tackle, but we've seen some fascinating progress in PTSD treatments as we recognize how PTSD and the associated anxiety/depression/etc. are not necessarily a "disease" but more akin to an "injury" that needs to be treated from that perspective. Time Perspective Therapy (TPT) seems to be a very promising approach for people tackling PTSD.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-time-cure/201211/your-brain-trauma

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/matter-personality/201303/you-cant-change-the-past-why-talk-about-it

 

http://www.timeperspectivetherapy.org/

 

http://www.timeperspectivetherapy.org/time-perspectives

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274956726_Time_Perspective_Therapy_Transforming_Zimbardo%27s_Temporal_Theory_into_Clinical_Practice

[+ Gar1eth]

I don't know your life, but it's entirely possible for someone to have experienced one or more traumatizing life-event that results in PTS and develops into PTSD due to the chronic nature of struggling with sexuality, identity, and more in our culture.

 

"'The trauma for gay men is the prolonged nature of it,' says William Elder, a sexual trauma researcher and psychologist. 'If you experience one traumatic event, you have the kind of PTSD that can be resolved in four to six months of therapy. But if you experience years and years of small stressors—little things where you think, Was that because of my sexuality?—that can be even worse.'" ~

https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/gay-loneliness/

 

Fatalism is deeply corrosive to growth and progress. It's a challenging attitude for talk-therapy to tackle, but we've seen some fascinating progress in PTSD treatments as we recognize how PTSD and the associated anxiety/depression/etc. are not necessarily a "disease" but more akin to an "injury" that needs to be treated from that perspective. Time Perspective Therapy (TPT) seems to be a very promising approach for people tackling PTSD.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-time-cure/201211/your-brain-trauma

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/matter-personality/201303/you-cant-change-the-past-why-talk-about-it

 

http://www.timeperspectivetherapy.org/

 

http://www.timeperspectivetherapy.org/time-perspectives

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274956726_Time_Perspective_Therapy_Transforming_Zimbardo's_Temporal_Theory_into_Clinical_Practice

 

That's all fascinating. I'm going to look at all these references. But I don't think I have PTSD. And while it's nice and convenient for me to hang the majority of my problems on being gay, I honestly think I'd still have some type of problems even if I were straight. I think it's just my nature-the way my protoplasm and my environment have interacted to produce me. People aren't perfect. Not everything can be fixed.

 

Gman