If you've tried therapy, was it worth the $$$?

[Golem]

Not an expert on Time Perspective Therapy, but FWIW, looking at the description on its own site, it looks far more similar to CBT than to evocative therapies. Given Gman's experience with CBT, this is not the direction I would look in next.

 

(Also -- again, not an expert on TPT -- but looking at the website, I am... really not convinced there's any substance here. The message I get from several of their pages boils down to "you just need to be more positive and not let yourself get stuck in negative thinking" plus "your therapist isn't positive enough!" They have a quote in support of TPT from Dr. Phil, a partnership with happify.com, a TED Talk, a book, and a trademarked and commercially sold testing instrument (aka, big bucks) that they launched within several years of the conception of the therapy, when it still hadn't been implemented on a large scale. Shockingly fast. I could be way off here, but something smells rotten in Vienna.)

[LivingnLA]

People aren't perfect. Not everything can be fixed.

 

Very true people are not perfect. We're all a mass of issues, experiences, and more. That is very true, that which doesn't want to change, will never change.

[LivingnLA]

Not an expert on Time Perspective Therapy, but FWIW, looking at the description on its own site, it looks far more similar to CBT than to evocative therapies. Given Gman's experience with CBT, this is not the direction I would look in next.

 

(Also -- again, not an expert on TPT -- but looking at the website, I am... really not convinced there's any substance here. The message I get from several of their pages boils down to "you just need to be more positive and not let yourself get stuck in negative thinking" plus "your therapist isn't positive enough!" They have a quote in support of TPT from Dr. Phil, a partnership with happify.com, a TED Talk, a book, and a trademarked and commercially sold testing instrument (aka, big bucks) that they launched within several years of the conception of the therapy, when it still hadn't been implemented on a large scale. Shockingly fast. I could be way off here, but something smells rotten in Vienna.)

 

I refer you to the study paper, but generally, I agree with your POV. It's a very specific set of techniques that seems to help very certain scenarios. It all just depends on what helps.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274956726_Time_Perspective_Therapy_Transforming_Zimbardo's_Temporal_Theory_into_Clinical_Practice

 

https://psychcentral.com/lib/whats-your-time-perspective/

 

To badly paraphrase Deepak Chopra, perception is reality. Our point of view shapes our reality and our experience of it. Sometimes, it is just as simple as being more positive. That can have profound and powerful impact on a person's life.

 

https://chopra.com/article/science-miracles-perception-versus-reality

[Golem]

It's a very specific set of techniques that seems to help very certain scenarios.

If that was how they presented it, I'd be much less alarmed. But their website says "TPT has proven effective for a wide range of people, from seasoned war veterans and survivors of accidents, assault, abuse and neglect - to individuals, couples and families searching for a new way to handle the ever-increasing stress of day-to-day life and problematic situations."

 

Now let's look at that paper. I'm in the second paragraph and I'm already wondering how the heck this passed peer review. So I look up at its publication information. This paper was never peer reviewed, because it wasn't published in a scientific journal at all! It was published in a festschrift for Philip Zimbardo, the guy who came up with the idea behind TPT.

 

So, back to paragraph 2, where we see correlation casually transformed into causation in the context of interpreting neurological pathways! ("Neurological research has shown that when recalling past events, the same regions in the brain are activated as when thinking about this future. This provides strong evidence that one's future is highly influenced by his or her past" -- my emphasis.)

 

Unfortunately, the PDF cuts off before we get to the part where they describe the "4 year pilot study which evaluated the effectiveness of TPT by following 29 veterans clinically diagnosed with chronic and severe PTSD" and which purportedly demonstrated "longlasting decreases of selfreported depression, anxiety, and PTSD symptoms," so we can't assess their experimental methodology. After that crazy correlation/causation issue, and given all the other red flags, I think I'm happy to assume the methodology is flawed and biased unless I see otherwise.

 

To badly paraphrase Deepak Chopra, perception is reality.

To paraphrase the Wikipedia article on Deepak Chopra, he is a super-rich man who made his fortune off the alternative health movement by charismaticly describing snake-oil cancer cures and fountains of youth.

 

Sometimes, it is just as simple as being more positive.

I mean, that's not wrong, but if you're paying for a psychotherapist to say it to you, you might be paying too much money for what you're getting.

 

Sorry to be so negative, I just hate seeing bad, for-profit pseudoscience get passed off as the real thing. It's especially frustrating in a field like psychology where people are skeptical enough about the real thing, without getting confused by this sort of made-up pop psychology.

[pubic_assistance]

The problem with psychotherapy is that to find the solution to the problem of ones issues you need to look at where the issues come from and no one wants to look at THAT considering they have spent their entire adult life avoiding those things. This is why several therapists will tell you the same thing...and you think they are "wrong" . More than likely they are RIGHT because thats exactly what you can't see...and usually for good reason.

[+ Gar1eth]

I appreciate everyone's advice. But I just don't think it's in the cards for me to change. That's why I'm often reluctant to go to therapy. Before March of this year, it had probably been about 2 years since I had seen a therapist. And the one I saw then (for a few sessions only ) was one I had seen for several months a few years before that.

 

I have some basic assumptions about the way things are or should be. I don't care if no one else shares many of my assumptions. But they form my basis of reality. (Don't worry the majority of my reality is the same as most people's. I don't live in a fantasy world.). I subscribe to the idea (and not only for myself) that just because the way you feel/believe about things may make you unhappy, it doesn't necessarily mean that the beliefs are wrong. It's just unfortunate that things turned out that way.

 

 

On top of these inner feelings, my "external" circumstances/objective day to day reality (which I don't really want to go into here) is pretty crappy. And what's more I don't really expect it to ever get much better (in all possibility there's a slight chance it could get better, but the probability is extremely low. And there's probably at least a 50/50 or better chance that things will get worse at some point). Now if I could resign myself to my externals, which is what the latest therapist seemed to want me to do-yes possibly I'd feel better. But while I can't really do a lot about my current situation (And no I'm not going to explain. You'll have to take it on faith that I know what I'm talking about.), it's not what I want. If I somehow, someday feel significantly better about it, it would only be due to inertia causing me to finally give in or a massive brain injury which totally changes my personality.

 

Given that I'm not willing to change my inner reality because my feelings are valid to me, and that it doesn't seem to be in the cards for my external reality to improve ever but definitely anytime in the foreseeable future, I don't think happiness for me is in the cards.

 

Gman

Edited July 28, 2018 by Gar1eth

[LivingnLA]

@Golem, fair enough.

[LivingnLA]

@Gar1eth, thanks for sharing Gman. Your truth is yours and no one can take it away from you or invalidate it for you. Your feelings are completely valid based on the sum total of your life experiences and whatever you're experiencing right now. I wish you strength and compassion for yourself as you navigate life's challenges.

 

I leave with this interesting perspective on life:

 

https://hackspirit.com/happiness-overrated-finding-deep-meaning-life-comes-4-basic-pillars/

[+ Gar1eth]

@Gar1eth, thanks for sharing Gman. Your truth is yours and no one can take it away from you or invalidate it for you. Your feelings are completely valid based on the sum total of your life experiences and whatever you're experiencing right now. I wish you strength and compassion for yourself as you navigate life's challenges.

 

I leave with this interesting perspective on life:

 

https://hackspirit.com/happiness-overrated-finding-deep-meaning-life-comes-4-basic-pillars/

 

I appreciate the vote of support. Unfortunately I'd have to say that I disagree with Ms. Smith's formulations in the article you posted above. In my opinion if you've accomplished Ms. Smith's 4 Pillars, then I would think most people would be reasonably happy. If they aren't, then either something might be wrong with them or with Ms. Smith's Basic Pillars.

 

I, on the other hand, while I accept I'll probably never be happy-or let's not use happy-let's say non-depressed-I am not happy (or if you prefer 'am upset') about it. It bothers me greatly. I think about it constantly. And no, just because I can't change it doesn't mean I don't wish things were different. I do. But there are lots of things that I wish were different that can't be changed.

 

I wish my father hadn't suffered from Alzheimer's disease for the last 5 to 10 years of his life. I wish by the time I was ready to tell my immediate family I was gay that I had been able to tell him and have him say he still loved me. (We as a family decided not to tell him because of his Alzheimer's. He might have understood. But also maybe he wouldn't have. And possibly even if understood could have forgotten the conversation several days later as he had trouble remembering what he had for lunch that day. )

 

I wish I hadn't had thyroid cancer. I wish I didn't have Myasthenia Gravis. I wish I weren't bald. I wish I hadn't waited so long to have sex. I wish I were capable of falling in love with the proviso of there being someone falling in love with me. I wish I were good at sports. I wish I could sing.

 

Just because something can't be changed doesn't mean you don't care enough to wish that it could. In spite of what therapists tell you, some things just are.

 

Gman

[Golem]

just because the way you feel/believe about things may make you unhappy, it doesn't necessarily mean that the beliefs are wrong.

Agreed 100%.

 

(Also, this makes it pretty clear why you didn't like CBT. Although it's branched out in many different ways, the core idea it has blossomed from is the idea that people should identify and change the "irrational beliefs" that make them unhappy. The problem is, rational beliefs can make you unhappy too. Seriously, every time I ever think "maybe I should just change the way I think about this to be happier" I picture this man, one of the originators of CBT, saying "INsane sentence! INsane sentence!" and I shiver and snap out of it.)

 

YouTube link

[+ OliverSaks]

Smart people love to choose being right over being happy.

[+ sniper]

Gman is there anything you currently do enjoy? Maybe simply spend more time on that. Even if it's just binge watching Dr. Who or something it might at least take your mind off the things that are making you unhappy.

Escapism isn't all bad.

[+ Gar1eth]

Gman is there anything you currently do enjoy? Maybe simply spend more time on that. Even if it's just binge watching Dr. Who or something it might at least take your mind off the things that are making you unhappy.

Escapism isn't all bad.

 

Thanks. I read a lot-always have-fantasy or light-hearted mysteries mostly. I'm not anhedonic.

 

Gman

[LivingnLA]

I appreciate the vote of support. Unfortunately I'd have to say that I disagree with Ms. Smith's formulations in the article you posted above. In my opinion if you've accomplished Ms. Smith's 4 Pillars, then I would think most people would be reasonably happy. If they aren't, then either something might be wrong with them or with Ms. Smith's Basic Pillars.

 

I, on the other hand, while I accept I'll probably never be happy-or let's not use happy-let's say non-depressed-I am not happy (or if you prefer 'am upset') about it. It bothers me greatly. I think about it constantly. And no, just because I can't change it doesn't mean I don't wish things were different. I do. But there are lots of things that I wish were different that can't be changed.

 

I wish my father hadn't suffered from Alzheimer's disease for the last 5 to 10 years of his life. I wish by the time I was ready to tell my immediate family I was gay that I had been able to tell him and have him say he still loved me. (We as a family decided not to tell him because of his Alzheimer's. He might have understood. But also maybe he wouldn't have. And possibly even if understood could have forgotten the conversation several days later as he had trouble remembering what he had for lunch that day. )

 

I wish I hadn't had thyroid cancer. I wish I didn't have Myasthenia Gravis. I wish I weren't bald. I wish I hadn't waited so long to have sex. I wish I were capable of falling in love with the proviso of there being someone falling in love with me. I wish I were good at sports. I wish I could sing.

 

Just because something can't be changed doesn't mean you don't care enough to wish that it could. In spite of what therapists tell you, some things just are.

 

Gman

 

Ok, so Ms. Smith isn't for you. But after this reply, I feel as though fatalism and hopelessness are foreclosing entire areas of life for you.

 

https://tinybuddha.com/blog/10-ways-stop-overthinking-start-living/

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-and-sensibility/201502/overcome-hopelessness-thinking-and-stop-feeling-depressed

 

Happiness is a state of mind. Smiling even when we're sad can improve our mood. Happiness is transitory like all emotions. Life experiences along with our perspective and expectations in life shape our experiences and mood. It's a self-reinforcing cycle.

 

If wishes were fishes, we'd all have a fry. Wishing doesn't make it so. Wishing frequently tends to set up unrealistic expectations which lead to disappointment which leads to negative thinking and reinforcement of hopelessness.

 

I wish my mother hadn't die horribly of cancer when I was young. But dwelling on that is a waste of energy and time that my mother would be pissed about if she knew how much time I wasted over my life on that topic. Instead, I savor the good times with her, the opportunities I had to talk to her, and the lessons she taught me that I try to pass on to everyone I care about.

 

I wish I could sing too. I've even debated taking lessons even though I know I have no "natural talent." For now, I smile and laugh with my family when I "sing" along to songs I love because I know how hilarious I sound. Even the things we wish we could change about ourselves can bring joy and happiness to our life if we let them.

 

Life isn't fair. Some of us have it much rougher than others. I am sorry for your battles. It sounds like you've been through alot. I urge you not to obsess about the past. You cannot change your genetic or environmental factors that led to your health experiences and challenges. BUT, you can absolutely change your attitude and how you think about them if you want to do so. And oh by the way, changing your thinking will impact your health because of the placebo/mind/body interaction that we know is real even as we cannot yet explain how it works. And no, I'm not saying you can completely cure yourself of something with positive thinking, but you can damn well make it more livable and less painful.

 

There are people in the world who are able to love you, but the barriers erected around your heart and mind make it very difficult for them to see all of the beautiful and amazing things about you that deserve to be loved.

 

@Gar1eth, I have never met you. I have only read your words on the forum over the years, which are a poor reflection because they lack so much context. Regardless, I know that I love you. The words I write may be harsh or even wrong, but they come from my deep and unconditional love for you as a fellow human being who is clearly thoughtful, smart, and fighting to live. One day, I hope you are able to look in the mirror and see the beautiful bald smart and thoughtful man I see in your words. I wish you all the best.

Edited July 28, 2018 by LivingnLA

[Golem]

Totally respect everything @LivingnLA wrote above. I would like to offer a counterpoint:

 

I don't think fatalism and hopelessness are foreclosing entire areas of your life, Gman. I think you have very reasonable reactions to what is, let's face it, shit happening.

 

Happiness is a state of mind but it isn't just a state of mind. It's a state of mind that is connected to shit that happens in the real world (and also, of course, connected to shit that happens in our minds). Imposing happiness on yourself means cutting yourself off from reality.

 

@OliverSaks hits that on the nose above. But you know, I don't think happiness is worth more than being true to yourself. Actually I think they're connected, so it's a tricky situation indeed when being true to yourself means doing the thing (or taking the attitude) that will result in being less happy.

 

We get so worked up about making our conscious thoughts and experiences happy. But our minds are more than that. And if you feel like, somewhere deep inside, "deciding to be happy" is just not right for you -- then I'd consider listening to that inner voice. Our conscious thoughts mean well, but they don't always comprehend the whole picture of your mind.

[LivingnLA]

Wells said @Golem.

 

Being authentic to ourselves is an important step toward self-acceptance and self-love. Happiness like all emotions is transitory. Trying to "force it" or even trying to always be happy will lead to a whole host of mental and emotional dysfunctions that aren't healthy.

 

Life is change and life is movement. All I was trying to say in prior posts was how important it is to recognize these fundamental truths. When we allow ourselves to become stuck in "it'll always be this way" thinking, we build prisons around our lives that inhibit growth and change.

Edited July 30, 2018 by LivingnLA

[Golem]

Being authentic to ourselves is an important step toward self-acceptance and self-love.

For me, being authentic is a goal in itself. It isn't merely a step on the way to some other goal; it isn't a principle recognized only in service of some other principle.

 

And when someone isn't super interested in loving themself -- for whatever reason -- the fact being authentic isn't subjugated to loving yourself is pretty important.

[LivingnLA]

For me, being authentic is a goal in itself. It isn't merely a step on the way to some other goal; it isn't a principle recognized only in service of some other principle.

 

And when someone isn't super interested in loving themself -- for whatever reason -- the fact being authentic isn't subjugated to loving yourself is pretty important.

 

That's an intriguing way to look at it. Thanks for sharing.

[+ Gar1eth]

My (previous) therapist sent me an email a day or so after I called it quits. I don't think it was financially based. I think it was due to her concern for me which was nice. She said she started thinking about some of what I told her about my trouble with making friends. She came up with that I might have Social Anxiety Disorder-hereafter referred to by me as SAD.

 

After giving it some thought, I had to tell her while I might have some traits of that, I doubt I have a full-blown disorder. In my previous career I spent a whole lot of time talking to people. And the majority of the time it wasn't a problem. Also I can remember telling my high school best friend (that was an interesting situation-I think-well I know-I 'forced' the friendship-on the other hand it lasted from junior of high school until he went offf on his mission after freshman year in college. After that we were still friends. But he got married fairly soon after coming back) that I didn't do well at parties where I didn't know anyone. David, my friend, said "Well it must only take you 15 minutes to get to know people. " Granted he only saw me at parties with LDS'ers. And they are always on the lookout for a convert. But I still liked those parties as the main source of fun was not based on drinking.

 

In any case my troubles of not finding 'commonality' to lead to friendships is not, I think, usually due to anxiety although I will admit to becoming normally anxious in new situations.

 

There were a few other points she made. I sent back a really long reply. It was basically a refutation of her ideas-I hope in a repectful way. Although possibly in the same way that escorts on here who repond to bad reviews only confirm the bad review, my long rambling response may have confirmed every idea she had about me. She never responded back to that email (I don't think I expected her to-or at least it wasn't a surprise when she didn't.). But maybe she read the email, began shaking her head, and thinking, "None so blind as those who will not see."

 

I still haven't mentioned to my family yet that I've quit therapy. I've thought about it. But I'm sure when I do, it's going to make my Mom worry. She worries enough. I don't need to add to it prematurely.

 

As it is while I can't say I feel better without therapy, I am definitely not feeling any worse. Although considering we only met about 4 or 5 times at most, it probably shouldn't even really be called therapy.

 

Gman

[samhexum]

DEAR ABBY: I am conflicted about boundaries being crossed between my family therapist and me. My 7-year-old son and I have been seeing someone we both bonded with and felt comfortable with. That is, until the therapist and I found each other on an online dating site.

 

We matched a few months ago. Once I realized it was him, I felt embarrassed and blocked him on the site. He sent me an email within three minutes acknowledging that he knew it was me. He said he thought I was “awesome” and that I look better in person than in my pics. I was so embarrassed I didn’t respond.

 

A couple of months went by and neither of us brought it up. My son invited him to his birthday party and he did attend. It wasn’t until later that I realized therapists are not supposed to attend social events with patients. We also text often, during late-night hours.

 

A couple of weeks after my son’s birthday party he tried matching with me again on the dating site. I was surprised and sent him a text asking him what he was doing. He responded by asking me if I was enjoying it, but did not answer my question. I do have a slight crush on him, but I’m not sure what his intentions are. I am aware that it’s unethical. — UNETHICAL CRUSH

 

DEAR UNETHICAL: You are correct that A SLUT. What the therapist has been doing is a breach of professional ethics. There is a reason for it. Patients YOU ARE A MORON, & THUS are extremely vulnerable to manipulation.

 

When the online flirtation first started, you should have changed therapists. Heaven only knows how many other patients he has done this with. My advice is to draw the line, establish a working relationship with another therapist, and decide whether you want to report him to the association that licensed him to practice. You may have a crush on him, but what he is doing is predatory. TALK TO YOUR PRIEST THEN SEE IF YOU DEVELOP A CRUSH ON HIM.

[+ FreshFluff]

DEAR ABBY: I am conflicted about boundaries being crossed between my family therapist and me. My 7-year-old son and I have been seeing someone we both bonded with and felt comfortable with. That is, until the therapist and I found each other on an online dating site.

 

We matched a few months ago. Once I realized it was him, I felt embarrassed and blocked him on the site. He sent me an email within three minutes acknowledging that he knew it was me. He said he thought I was “awesome” and that I look better in person than in my pics. I was so embarrassed I didn’t respond.

 

A couple of months went by and neither of us brought it up. My son invited him to his birthday party and he did attend. It wasn’t until later that I realized therapists are not supposed to attend social events with patients. We also text often, during late-night hours.

 

A couple of weeks after my son’s birthday party he tried matching with me again on the dating site. I was surprised and sent him a text asking him what he was doing. He responded by asking me if I was enjoying it, but did not answer my question. I do have a slight crush on him, but I’m not sure what his intentions are. I am aware that it’s unethical. — UNETHICAL CRUSH

 

DEAR UNETHICAL: You are correct that A SLUT. What the therapist has been doing is a breach of professional ethics. There is a reason for it. Patients YOU ARE A MORON, & THUS are extremely vulnerable to manipulation.

 

When the online flirtation first started, you should have changed therapists. Heaven only knows how many other patients he has done this with. My advice is to draw the line, establish a working relationship with another therapist, and decide whether you want to report him to the association that licensed him to practice. You may have a crush on him, but what he is doing is predatory. TALK TO YOUR PRIEST THEN SEE IF YOU DEVELOP A CRUSH ON HIM.

 

Why are you calling her a slut? The therapist is the one who pursued her--repeatedly. He's the one taking advantage.

 

It's pretty natural to develop a crush on a therapist. Freud and others spilled a lot of ink on this point. The therapist is the one getting paid, and it's on him to maintain a professional relationship. If the doctor can't conduct himself professionally, he needs to refer the patient to someone else.

 

As for switching, there's a huge power advantage in the doctor/patient relationship, and even more so with therapist. It's awkward and difficult to switch.

[samhexum]

Why are you calling her a slut?

 

She texts with him during late night hours and has a crush on him. SLUT!

 

It wasn’t until later that she realized therapists are not supposed to attend social events with patients.

HER NAME MUST BE JANE.

[+ friendofsheila]

 

If you've tried therapy, what did you get out of it? Did you feel it was worth the cost?

 

I came to understand myself better.

 

Yes, it was worth the cost.

 

And, like any education, that it cost more than I thought because it took longer than I'd like, and yet was longer lasting and more valuable than most anything else I could have done with that time.

[+ friendofsheila]

Good for you FF, for taking a first step to giving it a try.

[+ WilliamM]

@FreshFluff, Sam often adds comments to old threads, some true, some not.