Being a Queen: Nature or Nurture?

[+ Charlie]

>

>I have never met a little boy who was (a) in the process of

>becoming a queen and who was (b) happy, self-assured, and

>certain that he was loved.

 

I hardly ever find reason to disagree with Will, but I was a little boy who was in the process of becoming a queen and was happy, self-assured, and certain that I was loved. However, when I hit puberty, I realized that outside of my circle of loving family and friends I was not going to be accepted, so I promptly butched it up (as much as I could), and went away to college where no one suspected my past royal greatness. When I began to live in a gay urban ghetto, I finally found a comfortable balance between butch and queen, which has seemed "natural" to me ever since.

 

I do agree with Will and others that, whatever our inclinations may be, our actual mannerisms are learned, and they are culturally determined. In India, straight young man drape themselves gracefully over one another in poses that would get them beaten up in a redneck American neighborhood. I am one of those who subscribes to "when in Rome," so when I spend any length of time in another culture, I find myself changing my style to fit in. Even in Europe most natives find it hard to peg me as an American unless they hear me speak English, and when I lived in England I developed such a tony British accent that my American friends could hardly understand me.

 

I have no idea what "causes" homosexuality, but I feel pretty certain that "queeniness" is learned behavior, whether conscious or unconscious.

[Matt_Vancouver]

My thoughts on the subject.

I have a close friend who is, how do I say this nicely? So FLAMING he makes Jack on Will and Grace look butch! We will call him .... 'butch'.

He is from a small town in northern Alberta(redneck country if there ever was one).

The strange part is, his sister(the only other sibling) is a rig pig, truck driving bull dyke! Where did thier parents go wrong?

I used to think that really queeny guys were acting it up, as a defence mechanism, in a subconsious responce to their own persection.

But I honestly beleive that 'butch' is naturally flaming. Imagine the ridicule, growing up in a small community as 'that gay boy'. He honestly can't turn it off.

One day we were walking down the street in Vancouver, he had on a brightly colored scarf(cold up here) and was filing his nails as we walked.... I asked if he could 'please butch it up a bit'.... wrong thing to say. He put a little bit more of a swish in his step and camped it up full on.

I respect these men, they are the most visible of all gay men, and therefore the easiest target for homophobes. If that is who they are.... more power to them.

You go gurls.

After meeting 'butch' my mother asked if we were dating.....god bless her naievity: ) I explained that I prefer my men a bit less ....fluttery: )

 

Matt(I respect them, but that doesn't mean I want to sleep with them. Prefer a bit o' Oi in my Boi)

[trilingual]

IMHO the answer to the original question is: BOTH. Queens are indeed born, but must be nurtured into their full royal potential by the rough-and-tumble of life's experiences and the tender ministrations of other queens they meet along life's way.

 

BTW, there seems to be some confusion here between queenliness and effeminacy, two quite different concepts, as any grand leather queen will most happily point out. I mean, we all know some 6'4" bruiser with a gruff voice, a closet full of butch clothes and costumes, and nary a hint of limpness in either wrist. Yet when you visit his home it's right out of Architectural Digest, he has lovely china and silver, does gorgeous flower arrangements, and throws perfectly organized brunches or teas (with every dish grandly garnished). So let's not get our concepts confused here! :-)

 

In my own case, I can manage to go from butch to swish and back again in a flash. (This seems to come easier to those of us who are from or who have spent time in the South, where these matters of style are deeply understood and appreciated. Just ask Blanche.) Sometimes the swish part never emerges, but lurks dangerously under the surface, like when I'm dealing with some jackass in a work situation who thinks he's got it all over me while a certain royal personage is already figuring out ways to nicely draw and quarter him and throw him to the mob. In other words, you'd better tread carefully, buster, because this isn't the Queen Mum you're dealing with. It's the Queen Mother-in-Law, and she can be one mean mother when crossed. . . But nicely, of course! They never know what's hit them until it's way too late. . .

[DaninWA]

>Growing up, I was not allowed to use slang words, curse

>words or speak

>incorrectly. My mother was determined that her children

>weren't going to sound like a bunch of hicks. For a while,

>when I was young, I spoke haltingly, almost with a stutter.

>This was a direct result of my mother CONSTANTLY

>interrupting to correct me, so in my head I was always

>wondering if what I was going to say was grammatically

>correct.

 

My mother was an English and religion teacher and did the same thing to me. I find that I cannot use Instant Message shorthand without wanting to correct it.

 

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 

Dan

[Guest exFratBoy]

Coming in late on this one but...

 

I have to agree with Matt, that for some it is not an affectation.

I mean we've all known some kid in elementary school that was queen-like at age 8

 

Other guys seem to adopt the accent as a way of proclaiming their gayness

 

But all speech behaviors are learned. Hell, Madonna can start speaking with a British accent, people lose foreign and regional accents.

 

So my take is that anyone who talks like that is making a conscious decision to keep up the accent whether or not they were "born" that way, or not.

[+ Lucky]

Ex-Fart Boy, late as usual. seems to think that even if you are "born that way" you can lose the "accent." Being a queen isn't just an accent, it's like a more feminine level on the Kinsey scale.

Then there are those who think that if they join a fraternity, they will learn to be butch forever. A Greek thought if I ever heard one.

[phage]

>Coming in late on this one but...

 

Welcome back FratBoy…wondered what happened to you.

 

>But all speech behaviors are learned. Hell, Madonna can

>start speaking with a British accent, people lose foreign

>and regional accents.

 

That makes me wonder about something that maybe one of our multi-lingual members can answer. Does that familiar lilt that we associate with gay speech exist in other languages? Is there a Spanish lisp? Or a German swishy accent?

 

>So my take is that anyone who talks like that is making a

>conscious decision to keep up the accent whether or not they

>were "born" that way, or not.

 

Or just not making the conscious effort to control their natural impulses.

[Guest TruthTeller]

>Ex-Fart Boy

 

How dare you steal my indescribably accurate name for this heinous thing without crediting me.

 

>Ex-Fart Boy late as usual. seems to think that even if you

>are "born that way" you can lose the "accent." Being a queen

>isn't just an accent, it's like a more feminine level on the

>Kinsey scale.

 

He would have escaped from a gulag in Siberia and walked thousands of miles in a blizzard in order to make sure to participate in this thread. As I have pointed out several times (with increasing precision and persuasiveness), Ex Fart boy has the most severely neurotic need to prove that he's masculine that I or anyone else has ever encountered. He disappears from here for weeks, and then suddenly re-appears. Why?

 

To run to the thread about being a Queen, and to declare to the world that he remembers seeing certain kids in the playground -- READ: "THE ONES OVER THERE!!! NOT ME!!! I SWEAR!!!!" -- who were queeny and effeminate, and that "other" gay men -- "NOT ME, BUT THEM, WAY OVER THERE!!!!" -- seem to affect queeniness.

 

From the name he chose for himself, to virtually ever word that dribbles out of his lesioned, lipsticked mouth, everything about his existence is singularly devoted to desperately establishing his masculinity. The only difficult aspect of it is deciding whether it induces more pity or nausea to be forced to observe it; on that question, I am ambivalent.

[BewareofNick]

The only

>difficult aspect of it is deciding whether it induces more

>pity or nausea to be forced to observe it; on that question,

>I am ambivalent.

 

 

There is actually something that you don't have a firm opinion on? I am shocked!! You've jsut shattered every illusion I had about you!

[Bilbo]

I would like to hear from our international liguists on this matter.

 

I was told in some class or other - I think it was an early Spanish class - that you cannot speak in a High Castillian accent properly without a lisp of sorts. And that that is the highest class accent of Spain. Was I told correctly?

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

Is there a Spanish lisp?????????????

 

My god, what else is Castillian!!!!

 

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

I think it comes from the nobility copying the speech impediment of one of those Spanish Hapsburgs. Don't remember now which one it was, Maybe Trilingual or one of the other language mavens can set us straight...or at least inform us. :*

[trilingual]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

I'm not sure if the story of the origin of the Castilian "lisp" is true, but there's no doubt that "c" and "z" preceding "e", "i," and "o" is pronounced like a soft "th," where it would be pronounced "s" in other parts of Spain and in Latin America. The reason I'm not sure about the speech impediment theory is that the Castilian "s" is always pronounced as "s." So why one letter and not the other? In any event, as anyone who has spent time there can attest, when you hear some macho Madrileño speaking, there's nothing swish about his accent or mannerisms.

 

Nevertheless, it's certainly possible to be extremely swish in Spanish and Portuguese. It's all a manner of intonation, clever plays on words, and body language. Not to mention switching grammatical genders, like we do in English when referring to another man, or oneself, in the femenine. As in, "Get her!" For a real sample, just drop into any Latin American gay bar (including bars in the U.S. that cater to Latino gays) and check out the drag show to see swish Spanish in all its glory! :-)

[Guest exFratBoy]

You make me so hot when you talk dirty like that TT.

And I guess my question is why you seem to obsess so much over me?

 

Every time I post an opinion, you seem to take it as a personal affront, and practically jump over the make-up counter at Barneys to write something about how I am conflcited about my masculinity.

 

But dude- who the fuck cares?

 

You don't like what I say, ignore it. But the constant personal attacks are pretty lame. Yeah, I'm 28, a spoiled kid from suburbia who has a cushy job as a lawyer, and 6 years out of college, most of my friends are still my straight buddies from college. A lot of whom were in the frat with me. I might prefer to sleep with men, but that hasn't changed the friendships I have. A bunch of us live in the same city and we still hang out together a lot. And if that bugs you, there's nothing I can do about it. It's who I am. Question a shrink would ask you of course, is WHY is bugs you so much?

 

And as for the screen name- fuck, just go to AOL or any of the message boards frequented by guys under 35. Half the dudes there have screen names with the word "jock" "muscle" "frat" "masculine" in them. Maybe it's a generational thing. But the major theme I hear from guys my age that I meet on line (and off) is how isolating it is to be gay when all your friends are straight and how great it would be to find a buddy with the same interests and tastes, who doesn't think that who you sleep with should be the defining factor of your identity. One of the great things about the internet, in my opinion, is that it's let all these guys who otherwise would have gone on to get married or retreat so far into the closet as to become asexual, to meet each other and find out that, hey, you're not the only one. And do it in a way that encourages friendship and conversation rather than anonymous sex. Which is a really long-winded way of saying that on all the other gay boards I've been on, a name like "exFratBoy" let me find guys whose experiences were similar to mine. And I chose the name for this board based on that. Had I known the reaction and resentment it has caused-- or for that matter, had I known the types of conversations that took place here-- I'd have chosen a very different name.

 

And as for you though, let's be real: this "TruthTeller" thing is some bullshit you've invented to be able to finally say all the rude and nasty things you've always wanted to say to everybody who's ever crossed your path. My guess is that in real life, you are someone who is shy, easily cowed and often put upon. But the cloak of anonymity the internet offers you allows you to strike back and take your (considerable) anger out at the world. You ain't telling the truth brother, you're just spewing a bunch of vile at people you don't know and can't see because you are too chicken-shit to do it to people you do know in real life.

 

And you love all the fucking attention. You thrive on it. Whole posts devoted just to you, and you act all offended that IP Dailey or whatever his name is, keeps talking about you. This is the most attention you've ever gotten in your pathetic little life and you're eating it up. It's why you keep up with the psycho attacks. I mean damn, think of all the hours you spend typing rude and nasty shit about people onto your computer. Day in and day out. That's not something a normal person does.

 

And just who are you enlightening with your "truth telling": a bunch of whoremongers you've never met? HooBoy and Deej? Matt in Vancouver and Jeff in Ohio? Do you think they're all too stupid to pick up on who's bullshitting, who's saying stupid shit and who's for real and so they need you in all your fucking brilliance to tell them what's really going down? Get a fucking life.

 

 

I've noticed a distinct pattern to TT's posts, and I must congratulate you on your cunning strategy:

 

A. In post #1, he delivers a scathing, vicious personal attack on the poster he doesn't like. (e.g. everyone else on the board.) The message almost always includes violent sexual imagery: assholes being pounded until bloody, etc. (Paging Dr. Freud) The subject of TT's rant is never about the poster's main point and most definitely never about the point of the thread. Instead he pulls out some innocuous line or idea and runs with it.

 

B. The person attacked then angrily posts something back in defense, including a swipe at TT.

 

C. TT then acts horribly offended that the person attacked has somehow said something to hurt his feelings. Ignorning, of course, the viciousness of his own initial post. This is accompanied by a well-reasoned, level-headed defense of a position that is tangentially related to what TT was attacking in the first post. His new level-headed position is something that almost everyone will agree on: The sky is blue, AIDS is still a problem, not all Muslims are terrorists. Included in this post is a sentence-by-sentence deconstruction of the attackee's angry response, complete with level headed, somewhat witty rebuttals to each point.

 

D. The attackee is then left sputtering "but what about all those nasty things you said before...." and, if they are as stupid as I am, will continue to try and engage TT in a serious debate, said debate going on long enough so the attackee is surprised once again when ...

 

E. TT unleashes another vicious jab.

 

And so on and so on.

 

And as for me: I've hired one escort in my life. I started posting on this board because it was the first place where I found intelligent discussion about things that concerned me. And opinions from people a little (or a lot) older and wiser. But I just wasted 15 minutes and a hundred or so words on some putz who sells my mom eye-shadow. And that's not healthy. Or sane. Which is why I haven't been posting on here in a while and why you won't see me again. (Staying on here so that TT wouldn't think he succeeded in driving me away was tempting, but ultimately self-defeating and pointless.)

 

Hoo-Boy-- congrats to you for coming up with a killer business idea. And for having the insight to make sure it is well-designed and easy to use. (And don't underestimate the prurient interest reading the reviews has for several of my acquaintances who are not in the market for escorts but get off on reading the reviews-- maybe there's a way to harness that angle.) Deej, Phage and the rest of you, thanks for moderating these boards and for all the insights and counsel I've gleaned.

 

It's time for me to start living a life. Not just reading about it.

[+ Lucky]

RE: Being a Queer: Nature or Nurture?

 

Since you have only hired one escort in your life, maybe you have reached that moment where you can go out and see if you can get it for free.

[duke37]

Thanks for all the time you spent here. I for one and I'm sure there are others looked forward to reading your posts. I hope you change your mind of course. Best of luck. Jeff

[Guest cp8036]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

Is true that the slight lisp in Castillian Spanish is more a function of the normal accent. Nothing "gay" about it. Romance languages are so much more emotional than English in that verb conjugations can alter a meanings with great impact. Word order in Spanish can make for a more dramatic statement.

 

When I was living in Chicago I would meet Latino men, many of who were of Mexican descent. Notwithstanding their very latin or Mexican appearance, I speak enough Spanish to converse and to know the various accents within the Spanish speaking world.

 

Many young, gay, Mexicans would affect a Castillian "lisp" to sound more Spanish or Continnental -- grathis instead of gracias. Perhaps they were trying to rid themselves of their humble backgrounds in favor of a more noble lineage to European Aristocracy.

[Will]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

If you ask, I'll tell. If you don't want a history lesson, don't read this post.

 

Here goes.

 

Yes, the lisp is Spanish and it is fashion -- 17th-century fashion, anyway -- and it has to do with the king.

 

Philip IV Hapsburg, king of Spain from 1621 to 1665, was the product of several generations of inbreeding between the Austrian Hapsburgs and their cousins in the Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain. Like all the Hapsburgs, he had a severely overdeveloped mandible, meaning that his jaw was so undershot that he spoke with a strong lisp. (Try it and you'll see what I mean.) Naturally, all the Hapsburgs talked that way -- just look at their portraits and you'll see it, even when the painter was flattering them -- and so it became fashionable among the Spanish grandees to imitate the Hapsburg "s" and "z."

 

If that weren't bad enough, late in life Philip married Mariana of Austria, who was his sister's daughter; his sister, in turn, was married to their first cousin. Therefore Mariana was ALREADY highly inbred, and then she married her mother's brother.

 

The result of that blessed union was a genuine freak, Charles II, who succeeded Philip IV in 1665 and died, childless, in 1700. Even his official portraits make it clear that he must have been REALLY SCARY to look at. Eyewitness accounts also report that he could not eat solid food because his jaw was so distorted.

 

Just to finish this grotesque little parable of the superiority of sodomy: One of Philip IV's daughters by his first marriage (to Elizabeth de Bourbon) married Louis XIV of France (who also happened to be her first cousin on her mother's side). When Charles II died without (thank God) having produced an heir, the succession passed to the French grandson of Elizabeth de Bourbon and Philip IV Hapsburg.

 

Thus it was that the Spanish crown passed from the Hapsburg dynasty to the Bourbon dynasty, where it rests to this day.

 

But remember: the Spanish Bourbons have a lot of Hapsburg blood in them. Now that you know that fascinating piece of trivia, when you look at photos of King Juan Carlos, you can still see his Hapsburg jaw.

 

Don't say I didn't warn you!

[phage]

FratBoy,

 

I, too, hope you’ll stick around. HooBoy is the only one who has any right to say who comes and goes around here, and he goes out of his way to avoid doing that. I realize that no one has “asked” you to leave, but the personal attacks have got to be tiresome and are having the same effect. I just hope you’ll reconsider.

 

This board is interesting because of the diverse personalities and the wide range of topics covered. You’re part of that spectrum and offer a point of view that many of us appreciate. I like hearing from a young, educated, urban professional. You’ve got opinions that are based on sound reasoning and expressed very eloquently.

 

I never would have dreamed that including “Frat” in your handle would cause such hostility. Last time I checked, “Frat Boys” were an object of desire in our community – not derision. (Maybe that’s just me.) I can only assume that it was something convenient to latch onto once you had had some “debates” that escalated into confrontations.

 

Anyway…I like your style kid. I like your posts for the same reason I liked Fin Fang Foom’s posts and the same reason I like most of TruthTeller’s posts…they are sometimes thoughtful…sometimes humorous…sometimes ornery…but almost always make me laugh or make me think. Even though the three of you have virtually nothing in common…you’re intelligent and articulate and make this message board an interesting place to waste a great deal of time.

 

It’s easy for me to say this since I have been spared any prolonged or vicious personal attacks (because I’m not particularly controversial) but it would be nice if you could ignore it and continue to interact with the rest of us. If not…take care and enjoy yourself.

 

Phage

[Donnie]

>It's time for me to start living a life. Not just reading

>about it.

 

Oh my god, I think I'm going to cry. This is the most touching post I've ever read. Wow. Deep shit.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

Most enjoyable recitation, Will. As always, impeccably written... but with a few especially witty turns of a prhase. Bravo.

[trilingual]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

The history of the Hapsburgs and the results of their in-breeding is certainly accurate, but it doesn't explain why Castilians (supposedly imitating the King's defective speech) pronounce "s" as "s", while pronouncing only soft "c" and "z" as "th." For example, in Madrid the word "asociación" would be pronounced "asothiathión." (Rather tricky when you're not born to that accent!) That's why I think there's more to the reason for the Castilian "lisp" than Hapsburg physical defects.

 

You're right about King Juan Carlos's Hapsburg jaw; it seems to be growing more obvious as he ages. Fortunately he married out of the family, and their son, Felipe, is much better looking (not to mention that he's very hunky, 6'5", and, according to my most reliable source in European royal circles) "un amigo de Dorotea." Poor baby is 33 and STILL unmarried. Given the ways of the royals, they'll have to find someone for him so he can provide an heir. Hopefully he'll find someone pretty who also isn't a Hapsburg so maybe they can get rid of that chin once and for all!

 

Speaking of other hot royals, there's Prince João de Orléans e Bragança of Brazil. (Yes, Virginia, there is a Brazilian royal family. The Braganças are one of the oldest European royal houses, and related to just about all of the other royals in Europe.) Joãozinho, as he's known, isn't gay, and isn't quite as luscious as he was a few years ago, but he's still very good looking. When he was younger he was into having photos taken of himself in sprayed-on jeans in poses leaving no doubt whatsoever about the very considerable size and heft of the royal scepter, just to drive everyone crazy! :9

[Will]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

Maybe we should start a new site for cruising the nobility. It could be called "King Queens." Then there's the Crown Prince of Monaco. Maybe the Infante Felipe ahould marry Albert of Monaco. But who would do the wedding, now that Cecil Beaton is dead?????

[Guest WetDream]

RE: Spanish Lisp

 

Don't forget the minor character in Ronald Firbank's "Concerning the Excentricities of Cardinal Perelli," who was writing a book called Female Queens of England. As for a photographer for the royal wedding, certainly Helmut Newton could bring his kinky flair to the shoot. I would recommend Bruce Weber, but I think these guys are a bit long in the tooth to spark his creativity.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>My question is this: We've all seen the people that we

>would normally call queens. The first example that comes to

>mind is the character of Emmett (played by Peter Paige) on

>Queer as Folk. He has that 'queer accent', he acts in a

>feminine manner, and has queer mannerisms. I would contrast

>this with the character of Brian (played by Gale Harrold)

>who is very masculine and could pass for heterosexual.

 

Slightly off topic... but IMHO Emmet is the only well adjusted character of the core group (the Sharon Gless character is too but that is another story). Queen he is, but he knows who he is and he is comfortable in his skin like none of the others. Second is Justin with only one hang up -- Brian. The rest are serious basket cases of one sort or another. So. based on their demons: Emmet is the one I would be most comfortable with day in and day out, and Brian the one I'd most like to give counseling too. :-) Then there is Justin for tutoring -- him or me, I don't care. The rest I leave to the heavy duty shrinks.

 

:-)