Being a Queen: Nature or Nurture?

[BewareofNick]

The debate over whether a person is born gay or chooses to be gay has raged on for countless decades I am sure. I know that I am certainly an advocate of teh idea that one is born gay or at least it is an immutable characteristic (such as race, eye coloe, etc)

 

My question is this: We've all seen the people that we would normally call queens. The first example that comes to mind is the character of Emmett (played by Peter Paige) on Queer as Folk. He has that 'queer accent', he acts in a feminine manner, and has queer mannerisms. I would contrast this with the character of Brian (played by Gale Harrold) who is very masculine and could pass for heterosexual.

 

My question is this: Is Emmett a queen because the way he speaks and acts and carries himself is something innate or did he make a conscious choice to act this way? (He might have seen other queer men acting this way and decided to affect those mannerisms).

 

It doesn't apply to just Emmett either. I think all of us know at least one queen (heck, it might even be ourselves! Hi, TT!)

 

I'd be interested to know what you think, especially from those who self identify as a queen.

[Traveller]

Queens are that way because their mothers wouldn't let them wear their baseball caps backwards and their fathers didn't teach them how to shoot muslims. A double negative any way you look at it.

 

Later.

 

PS. DickHo. Continuing my Brazilian month, I'm lining up Carlos for Fri or Sat. My Xmas present to myself. I had the BF for Hannukah and I see Malik has returned. Doing him again would make me a good Kwanza gift.

[Will]

Queens are made not born, I think. Ditto butch jocks. Most mannerisms, gestures, postures, and speech patterns are learned. There are exceptions, of course. I've often noticed that certain familial patterns of facial expression may be spread over a large group of first cousins. I take this to be inherited proportions of certain muscles and so on that give individuality to our bodies and faces. But little boys learn to act nelly. They may not be conscious of it, and they may do it for all sorts of sad reasons, but learn it they do. I know that from experience. And I unlearned it.

 

As for butch jocks, if you don't believe me, go to Italy and watch the hot men walk. They do not move forward by swinging from side to side as they lift one leg and swing it forward from the hip. They do not stand with their feet wide apart; they do not rock back and forth on the balls of their feet. All of that is learned behavior.

 

Of course, American men don't have the learned Italian habit of checking every ten seconds to make sure their cocks and balls are still in place and hanging properly.

[Rick Munroe]

>Of course, American men don't have the learned Italian habit

>of checking every ten seconds to make sure their cocks and

>balls are still in place and hanging properly.

 

No, they have whores like me to do it for them.

[Bilbo]

It isn't always a sad thing to be a queen. And with some, it is something which, to at least a certain extent, we can turn on and off. (Of course, I am an actor, too.) And always remember that not all queens are gay.

[phage]

I’m a firm believer that I, at least, was born gay; or it happened so early in life that it is irrelevant. The first sexual thoughts I ever had, starting at about eight or nine, were about boys my own age and older. (My brother-in-law was a high school water polo coach and I volunteered to be the team water boy just to get in the locker room with those teenagers.) Somebody somewhere must have “chosen” to be gay but I have never met one.

 

I think the spectrum of queen to butch behavior is determined, or at least pre-disposed, in the same manner – some kind of genetic or hormonal factor. At least for NATURAL behavior. A person can always choose to modify, suppress or magnify the behavior and characteristics that come naturally to them, but then it becomes a simple affectation.

 

Of course there are cultural differences. European men (and Hollywood celebrities) seem quite happy to sit in the tight, crossed-leg position that most Americans consider a feminine position. I remember sitting like that once and my dear old mom told me to stop it. That’s a fairly minor behavior that I made an effort to modify, but it didn’t make me any more butch. I just modified a behavior that came naturally to me and replaced it with one that eventually became a habit.

 

With enough effort, you can make almost any behavior a habit, but that doesn’t change your true nature. If your flame burns brightly…it will still be smoldering under the surface.

[Bilbo]

Looked at by some or at some times, most matters of art or style become "a simple affectation."

[Guest cp8036]

I used to be a queen, but after posting here, I have changed. I used to drive a white Cadillac with rhinestones all over, but now I ride my horse to work. I threw out all my shoes, now only work boots and flip-flops (for when I go to Asia). I don't know who Judy Garland is.

 

It has been life-changing.

 

Traveller is right, shooting Muslims helped rid me of my old ways. I am glad he let me come along on the last hunt. It made more butch. But, his Ford Pinto is not a good car for such outings.

[BewareofNick]

>It isn't always a sad thing to be a queen. And with some, it

>is something which, to at least a certain extent, we can

>turn on and off. (Of course, I am an actor, too.) And always

>remember that not all queens are gay.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being a queen. I know some wonderful people whose flames burn very brightly.

[Will]

I didn't mean to imply that queens are sad. Thank God for queens, without whom there'd have been no Stonewall Riot. Don't get me wrong: there are lots of queens I love.

 

But they're all adult men.

 

I have never met a little boy who was (a) in the process of becoming a queen and who was (b) happy, self-assured, and certain that he was loved.

[Guest Merlin]

Some gays have a distinct sound in their voice which I believe is physical and not within their control. When we hear it, we instantly know or believe that they are gay. Richard Simmons would be an example, as well as the guy who has the interior decorating show on TV. Liberace another. I think most of them would like to sound more straight, but it appears to be a physical difference.

[BewareofNick]

That was my thought as well. I've known people who have the 'gay accent' and event hough some have tried, they never quite get it out of their voice. This would suggest something physical might be involved.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

>This would suggest

>something physical might be involved.

 

 

Sorry Merlin and BoN but I think this is just plain bullshit. The vast majority if these are cases of simple accent like Boston, Texas, South Carolina, etc, and thus learned. There are exceptions such as Truman Capote who combined a lisp with his affected speech. I think this has more to do with realizing some aspect of self image and thus is culitvated. My speech pathology credentials are nil, thus count this as an uniformed opinion.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

That was UNINFORMED opinion... never liked uniform opinions much :-)

[Will]

As usual, I'm with TY on this. If it were the case that the "gay accent" is inherent, why is it that many gay men don't have it? What's more, it's in the ear: to people who can't distinguish among Southern accents (with accent on the plural) some White upper-class men sound "gay" when they aren't at all.

 

Years ago I knew a famous voice teacher, and from her I learned that the human voice is a responsive instrument like no other. We've all been on the phone with someone who assured us that he was "just great," when the sound of his voice told us otherwise. We know what it's like for a friend to be smiling, funny, and even sweet while burning up with rage. According to my friend the voice teacher, that is because it is extremely difficult to censor out emotions from unconscious speech. Too loud or too soft, too piercing or too muffled, too bright or too dark, all of those voice colors result from largely involuntary muscular action. I suspect that what we are actually hearing in the "gay" accent are the sounds of internalized homophobia. Blessed are they who don't have it.

[Guest WetDream]

I join in with the "learned behavior" school. I do wonder about the residual nelliness in the speech of a person who otherwise conforms with our ideas of butchness. Studies of people who learn a second language have found that language number two must be acquired before the person is 14 years old if he/she is to speak it without an accent. This may be true of people who try to rid their speech of effiminate mannerisms later in life. Who knows? It is also a possibility that, when we know someone is gay, we "hear" the gayness in his speech.

[phage]

As someone who cringes every time he hears his recorded voice, I have a hard time believing all of my speech patterns are a learned behavior. I understand how you acquire regional accents, but where would I have “learned” a gay accent so early in life? I make sure that none of the hyper-gay affectations are present – “fabulous” is not part of my vocabulary – but I still hear what we “in the know” recognize as a gay accent.

 

I have never thought of myself as having any internalized homophobia. (My only issues with being gay were how to find other gay boys. Once I got that figured out…it’s been smooth sailing.) However, it’s a nice thought on this subject. I don’t “sound” gay…I only “hear” gay. I can live with that.

[Damascene]

I have a voice which can go from queeny to butch and back again;

I can do voice impersonations too - would a straight man ever try

to the Theme of the Beverly Hillbilly's as Cher? - I think not.

 

Accents and styles are learned. We are born with the capability to

speak, but we learned to how to use them. That is why people can

drop there accent or put in affectations, ay. My speech certainly

got queenier as I hung around more gay men. People are like a sponge,

we pick all sorts of things without thinking.

[Will]

But Phage, your own words underscore my very point: "As someone who cringes every time he hears his recorded voice.... But where would I have “learned” a gay accent so early in life? I make sure that none of the hyper-gay affectations are present – “fabulous” is not part of my vocabulary – but I still hear what we “in the know” recognize as a gay accent."

 

Being ashamed of the way you sound, having to be "sure that none of the hyper-gay affections are present," being able to "live" with "hearing" gay as long as you don't "sound" gay: that's internalized homophobia, in my opinion.

 

What's wrong with "fabulous?" With "love"? With "to die for"?

 

What's wrong with them is that they are coded as "feminine" not "masculine" speech. And, of course, the code itself is absolutely ridiculous. In other Western societies, manly men say "fabulous" and they "love" things as well as people.

 

You say you don't have any internalized homophobia. By your lights you may be absolutely correct. By my lights, you do. Just exactly like almost every single one of us.

[Rick Munroe]

>I can do voice impersonations too - would a straight man

>ever try to (do) the Theme of the Beverly Hillbilly's as

>Cher? - I think not.

 

Damascene, that is such a copout. Anyone can do the Beverly Hillbillies as Cher. Her voice is made for story songs; that's why Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves and Dark Lady went to # 1. Now...if you can do Cher singing the theme to Facts of Life or Charles in Charge, I'd be impressed. :*

[phage]

>You say you don't have any internalized homophobia. By your

>lights you may be absolutely correct. By my lights, you do.

> Just exactly like almost every single one of us.

 

Well…yes and no. (We’ve been here before…just recently…but it’s seems to be an ever interesting topic.)

 

Are we homophobic just because we don’t like ALL things about ALL gay men?

 

I easily admit to not liking nelly behavior in other men, so of course, I try to keep my own flame down to a pilot light. That’s the way I attract men who I can relate to. Some of it comes very naturally to me. Other things – like my speech patterns – take some conscience thought.

 

Is being conscience of your behavior, and trying to make it reflect your preferred model…homophobia? I don’t think so. I don’t hate myself or the fact that I’m gay. I simply prefer the more mainstream, average male behaviors that I grew up with and find attractive. It’s just a way of presenting myself to the outside world and doesn’t seem very different from choosing clothing or a hairstyle.

 

>What's wrong with "fabulous?" With "love"? With "to die

>for"?

 

The only thing “wrong” with them is they don’t feel right to me and that isn’t the image I choose to project. Along the same lines…I don’t use “gangster” slang, or talk like a valley boy or surfer dude, or even like my straight jock brother.

 

This may be a poor comparison, but is a black person who doesn’t use speech patterns often associated with black Americans…self-hating?

[DaninWA]

>Accents and styles are learned. We are born with the

>capability to

>speak, but we learned to how to use them. That is why people

>can

>drop there accent or put in affectations, ay. My speech

>certainly

>got queenier as I hung around more gay men. People are like

>a sponge,

>we pick all sorts of things without thinking.

 

I pick up accents at the drop of a hat and can't seem to get rid of them completely. My parents and grandparents are from Germany, Ireland, and Brooklyn. My college roommates were from Nigeria, England, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Kentucky, and THE GREAT STATE OF TEXAS. I get teased all the time about my weird conglomeration of accents.

 

Dan

[Guest jeffOH]

My life is not centered around "gay culture", whatever that is. I VERY

rarely go out to gay bars. I believe some gay men are simply born with

more feminine qualities. I also believe that alot of it has to do with the company you keep. I cringe when I overhear what I call "fag" or "bitchy queen" speak. You know, girl this, sister that

or gay men who have female nicknames for each other. I just don't get

it.

 

Growing up, I was not allowed to use slang words, curse words or speak

incorrectly. My mother was determined that her children weren't going to sound like a bunch of hicks. For a while, when I was young, I spoke haltingly, almost with a stutter. This was a direct result of my mother CONSTANTLY interrupting to correct me, so in my head I was always wondering if what I was going to say was grammatically correct. So, I never picked up gay slang or the mannerisms because I

was trained not to be influenced in that way by others. Although, I do

have a Southern Ohio accent it has softened after 15 years in

Columbus(central Ohio).

 

I don't think that gay men who do use gay slang and the often affected mannerisms are wrong, but I do believe that it is a sub-concious thing of fitting in with the crowd.

 

Happy Holidays!

JEFF

jeff4hire@aol.com

:-)

[BewareofNick]

>suspect that what we are actually hearing in the "gay"

>accent are the sounds of internalized homophobia. Blessed

>are they who don't have it.

 

That's a little bit of a stretch. Are you suggesting that when we hear a gay accent it actually represents some internalized homophobia on our parts? You aren't a 'rebel hater' if you hear a Southern Accent. Perhaps I have missed your point.

[Guest Merlin]

All of this brings us to the larger question, which is: are there different causes for gayness? Consider the wide disparity among

gays: masculine and feminine, dominant and submissive, top and bottom, gay and bisexual. Most gays have a firm opinion about why they are gay, but there is a wide disparity: some believe they were born gay, some trace it to an incident of abuse, many were straight and then "discovered" they were gay, many dont know. I know people who are straight but who have learned to enjoy gay encounters. Many gays have been married and had children. But many gays could not perform with a woman. All these differences lead me to believe that there are more than one cause of gayness, and some basic,including physical, differences between gays.