United Healthcare CEO killed

[Luv2play]

1 hour ago, Rudynate said:

They were estranged and living apart.

If that was the case why are they still referring to him as a loving husband. I get the father bit. But an estranged husband is not usually referred to that way. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

And another school shooting with so far three kids dead, counting the shooter. This is what I am talking about, the issue is not only greedy corporations and crazy hot vigilantes.

[mike carey]

Gentlemen, a reminder that Cooper's note closes discussions about the rights and wrongs of the health care system, and the individual and collective actions that affect health outcomes. That includes not replying to points that had been made before the note if they don't relate to the topic of the CEO and his alleged killer.

We have hidden several posts that added to the closed elements of the conversation. Thank you for your continued efforts to stay on topic.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 12/11/2024 at 6:09 PM, Luv2play said:

I remember people saying that about OJ as well. Then jury nullification happened, to the surprise of almost everyone.

In the OJ case, it was the jurry in Nevada who finally sent his ass to prison.

If New Yorkers fail to imprison the assassin, then hopefully the charges in Pennsylvania will lock this guy away.

[+ augustus]

1 hour ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

If New Yorkers fail to imprison the assassin, then hopefully the charges in Pennsylvania will lock this guy away.

The evidence of Mangione's guilt is overwhelming.   What the defense lawyers will do is try to mitigate the punishment with an insanity or extreme emotional disturbance defense.  

[dutchal]

12 hours ago, augustus said:

The evidence of Mangione's guilt is overwhelming.   What the defense lawyers will do is try to mitigate the punishment with an insanity or extreme emotional disturbance defense.  

The extreme emotional disturbance defense, if proven by the defense, would only reduce the charge from murder to manslaughter but there would still be a criminal conviction and a jail term.

Mental disease or defect (the technical name for the insanity defense in New York), if proven, would then result in hearings as to the defendant's present mental condition and potentially involuntary commitment.

[+ nycman]

The fact that he clearly had a premeditated plan and ran afterwards shows he knew what he was doing was wrong. That pretty much blows a hole right in the middle of any "insanity" defense. If he’s smart (and I believe he is incredibly smart), he will turn on the charm in court. Despite what I said above, he only needs one vote to set him free.

The odds of this kid walking free are slim, but we all know (given our shitty legal system) it’s not zero. 

[+ ApexNomad]

The indictment on a terrorism charge significantly changes the dynamics of this case. It frames the defendant’s actions not just as a personal crime, but as an attack on society itself. The prosecution will likely focus on proving premeditation, showing the defendant’s actions were part of a larger, ideologically driven agenda. They’ll use any evidence of extremist beliefs, communications, or behavior to argue that the crime was motivated by more than personal grievances, thus justifying the terrorism charge. This also opens the door for harsher sentencing under terrorism statutes.

For the defense, the challenge has now intensified. They’ll need to argue that the defendant’s actions, while tragic, were not ideologically motivated and do not meet the legal definition of terrorism. This could include bolstering arguments for diminished capacity, such as an insanity defense or extreme emotional disturbance, in an effort to show that the defendant was not in full control of his actions. They will also likely emphasize personal struggles or mental health issues to humanize the defendant and counter the terrorism charge.

It’ll be interesting to see what plea the defense enters, as this will significantly shape the trial strategy. In high-profile cases like this one, where the charges are severe (e.g., terrorism and murder), the decision for a jury trial is more likely, especially given the emotional weight of the charges. However, the defendant may still request a bench trial, depending on their strategy and legal counsel’s advice.

[+ José Soplanucas]

12 hours ago, ApexNomad said:

The indictment on a terrorism charge significantly changes the dynamics of this case. It frames the defendant’s actions not just as a personal crime, but as an attack on society itself.

As you know, my interest in Luigi Mangione’s case lies less in its legal intricacies and more in the broader cultural and political ripple effects it has triggered.

Labeling his act as terrorism, I think, is likely to increase his popularity. As you pointed out, framing the murder/assassination as an attack against society itself elevates its significance. However, one of the fundamental challenges we face today is the erosion of a cohesive, integrated society. Instead, we see a landscape of fragmented individual and collective interests often in conflict, edging closer to anarchy. 

For his supporters, this act will be seen as yet another example of the privileged elite protecting their own power and self-interest at the expense of the majority. In their eyes, this narrative reinforces the deep divisions and inequities already present in our systems.

That said, I believe the system will assert itself in this case, and Luigi will likely face condemnation. However, the broader implications of his act’s popularity cannot be ignored. I suspect that many big heads in Corporate America are scared, and we may start to see measures aimed at addressing—or at least appearing to address—the widening gaps that Luigi’s act popularity is highlighting and enhancing. 

This continues to get more and more interesting. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by José Soplanucas

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

2 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

...this act will be seen as yet another example of the privileged elite...

Luigi is part of the privileged elite 

[+ ApexNomad]

47 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

As you know, my interest in Luigi Mangione’s case lies less in its legal intricacies and more in the broader cultural and political ripple effects it has triggered.

Labeling his act as terrorism, in think, is likely to increase his popularity. As you pointed out, framing the murder/assassination as an attack against society itself elevates its significance. However, one of the fundamental challenges we face today is the erosion of a cohesive, integrated society. Instead, we see a landscape of fragmented individual and collective interests often in conflict, edging closer to anarchy. 

For his supporters, this act will be seen as yet another example of the privileged elite protecting their own power and self-interest at the expense of the majority. In their eyes, this narrative reinforces the deep divisions and inequities already present in our systems.

That said, I believe the system will assert itself in this case, and Luigi will likely face condemnation. However, the broader implications of his act’s popularity cannot be ignored. I suspect that many big heads in Corporate America are scared, and we may start to see measures aimed at addressing—or at least appearing to address—the widening gaps that Luigi’s act popularity is highlighting and enhancing. 

This continues to get more and more interesting. 

This case extends beyond the courtroom and touches on larger societal issues. While Mangione’s background positions him within the privileged elite, his supporters—many of whom come from marginalized communities—might view his actions differently. They could perceive his act not just as a crime, but as a challenge to the very systems of power they feel have long excluded them. In this light, Mangione may be seen as a martyr, with his supporters framing his actions as a form of resistance rather than a criminal act. This is reflected in the fundraising efforts for his defense, which seem to resonate with those who see Mangione as someone taking a stand against the status quo. The framing of his actions is likely to differ significantly depending on the social lens through which they are viewed. 

What’s fascinating, and concerning (especially for the prosecution I’d imagine), is that the legal and media narratives surrounding the case may do little to shift this perception among his supporters. In fact, they may only serve to deepen the divisions in the public’s understanding of justice, reinforcing the idea that the system is either working against or for certain segments of society, depending on one’s perspective.

[+ José Soplanucas]

51 minutes ago, Vegas_Millennial said:

Luigi is part of the privileged elite 

That is one of the most interesting things in this case. However, and evidently, his massive following do not see that, or see it and find it irrelevant. 

[mike carey]

'Class traitor' is an established term in revolutionary and socialist theory, and although originally used as a term for members of the 'working class' or whatever it's called in the society in question, it is also applied to members of the elite who are seen to take the side of the 'others' against them. Mangione readily fits that description.

[+ Pensant]

I’m reminded of the Gracchi brothers during the Roman Republic, members of the patrician class who sided with the plebeians against the Senate; although I wouldn’t consider members of today’s grasping capitalist elites to be patricians in the classical sense. 

Edited December 18, 2024 by Pensant

[+ José Soplanucas]

8 hours ago, mike carey said:

'Class traitor' is an established term in revolutionary and socialist theory, and although originally used as a term for members of the 'working class' or whatever it's called in the society in question, it is also applied to members of the elite who are seen to take the side of the 'others' against them. Mangione readily fits that description.

You are correct! Plus, although I am certain there is not a "revolutionary situation", to use a trotskyist category, if we look back at history most revolutionary leaders came from privileged classes or groups. They led, the masses followed.

[dutchal]

To convict Mangione of first degree murder on the terrorism theory, the State is going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the murder in furtherance of the following:

490.05 Definitions.
 As used in this article, the following terms shall mean and include:
  1. "Act of terrorism":
  (a)  for  purposes of this article means an act or acts constituting a
specified offense as defined in subdivision three of  this  section  for
which  a  person  may  be convicted in the criminal courts of this state
pursuant to article twenty of the criminal procedure law, or an  act  or
acts constituting an offense in any other jurisdiction within or outside
the  territorial  boundaries  of the United States which contains all of
the essential elements of a specified offense, that is intended to:
  (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
  (ii) influence the policy of a unit of government by  intimidation  or
coercion; or
  (iii)   affect  the  conduct  of  a  unit  of  government  by  murder,
assassination or kidnapping; or
  (b)  for  purposes  of  subparagraph  (xiii)  of  paragraph   (a)   of
subdivision  one of section 125.27 of this chapter means activities that
involve a violent act or acts  dangerous  to  human  life  that  are  in
violation of the criminal laws of this state and are intended to:
  (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
  (ii)  influence  the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or
coercion; or
  (iii)  affect  the  conduct  of  a  unit  of  government  by   murder,
assassination or kidnapping.

Doesn't look like a very good fit.

[+ ApexNomad]

1 hour ago, dutchal said:

To convict Mangione of first degree murder on the terrorism theory, the State is going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he committed the murder in furtherance of the following:

490.05 Definitions.
 As used in this article, the following terms shall mean and include:
  1. "Act of terrorism":
  (a)  for  purposes of this article means an act or acts constituting a
specified offense as defined in subdivision three of  this  section  for
which  a  person  may  be convicted in the criminal courts of this state
pursuant to article twenty of the criminal procedure law, or an  act  or
acts constituting an offense in any other jurisdiction within or outside
the  territorial  boundaries  of the United States which contains all of
the essential elements of a specified offense, that is intended to:
  (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
  (ii) influence the policy of a unit of government by  intimidation  or
coercion; or
  (iii)   affect  the  conduct  of  a  unit  of  government  by  murder,
assassination or kidnapping; or
  (b)  for  purposes  of  subparagraph  (xiii)  of  paragraph   (a)   of
subdivision  one of section 125.27 of this chapter means activities that
involve a violent act or acts  dangerous  to  human  life  that  are  in
violation of the criminal laws of this state and are intended to:
  (i) intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
  (ii)  influence  the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or
coercion; or
  (iii)  affect  the  conduct  of  a  unit  of  government  by   murder,
assassination or kidnapping.

Doesn't look like a very good fit.

It’s all strategic. Three potential reasons:

1. Leverage in Plea Negotiations: A terrorism charge significantly raises the stakes, potentially pressuring Mangione to accept a plea deal.

2. Public Perception: Labeling the act as terrorism emphasizes the severity of the crime and signals to the public that the State views the act as having broader societal implications, reinforcing their commitment to addressing such violence.

3. Unclear Motive or Evidence: The prosecution may have evidence that hasn’t been disclosed yet, which could tie Mangione’s actions to the statutory definitions of terrorism, such as attempting to influence government policy or intimidate a population.

[+ José Soplanucas]

 

[Luv2play]

A writer in the NYT today, who is a former NY ADA, says the charge of terrorism by Alan Bragg increases the chance that there will be jury nullification. 

[Luv2play]

The feds have now brought murder charges against Mangioni that include the death penalty. This is a game changer. Bragg is saying that the state case will run in parallel. We’ll have to see how that plays out. 
This shows to me how the justice system is going all out to attack this kind of crime that threatens the economic and political establishment. 

[marylander1940]

51 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

A writer in the NYT today, who is a former NY ADA, says the charge of terrorism by Alan Bragg increases the chance that there will be jury nullification. 

The only terrorism I've seen is by some of his supporters justifying his actions and even suggesting going ahead and killing more CEO like Thompson.

Edited December 19, 2024 by marylander1940
dyslexia

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

41 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

The feds have now brought murder charges against Mangioni that include the death penalty...

Good

[+ augustus]

If Luigi thought he had problems before this, wait until he gets to Rikers Island.

[+ augustus]

1 hour ago, Luv2play said:

This shows to me how the justice system is going all out to attack this kind of crime that threatens the economic and political establishment. 

It may be required as an example since Luigi has so many supporters and sympathizers and to discourage copycats. 

[dutchal]

15 minutes ago, augustus said:

If Luigi thought he had problems before this, wait until he gets to Rikers Island.

The Feds have taken custody of him so right now he's in the same federal prison in Brooklyn with Sean Diddy Combs and Austin Wolf.