Prices and Negotiations (ie. “Haggling”)

[+ José Soplanucas]

20 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

My masturbation to internal fantasies rates 7.0/10 and costs the price of a wipe. To erotica 7.5/10 and the upcharge of a few minutes of bandwidth. Getting off with an escort 8.0/10, equivalent to a year’s supply of wipes and bandwidth. But it rates the best. Time is money. Much of life is oriented to conserving both. These attempts are visibly externalized. Let me know when the rules of engagement are set. The discussion thus far is zero-sum to infinity.

You can save that wipe and spread your man milk all over your skin. It is highly nutritious. My youngish face is a testimony of it.

The economy is tough right now. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by José Soplanucas

[Jaroslav]

25 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

The discussion thus far is zero-sum to infinity.

Only absent negotiation!

Love the numerical classification. It may seem crass but the anal retentiveness some here have about being comped for every second or it’s a waste of time leads to such crass reductionism!

I get a salary. A salary way under the salaries of many in other fields with similar levels of education but a salary nonetheless. I also work 70-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7. My only real me time is if I declare to my workplace I’m incommunicado. So to hear that you need to be compensated for every second you dedicate to work does ruffle my feathers.

So, the question really comes down to if escorting is paying for an experience or paying for time. If it’s a rate per event or a rate per hour. Of course, we are going to say it’s both because sometimes it’s advantageous to negotiate an experiential price and sometimes it’s advantageous to negotiate a timely price. We – client and provider – want to maximize gain and minimize cost.

Unless of course you like throwing money around. Some do. I find gaudy shows of exorbitant profligacy tacky. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Jaroslav

[SirBillybob]

27 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

Only absent negotiation!

Love the numerical classification. It may seem crass but the anal retentiveness some here have about being comped for every second or it’s a waste of time leads to such crass reductionism!

I get a salary. A salary way under the salaries of many in other fields with similar levels of education but a salary nonetheless. I also work 70-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7. My only real me time is if I declare to my workplace I’m incommunicado. So to hear that you need to be compensated for every second you dedicate to work does ruffle my feathers.

So, the question really comes down to if escorting is paying for an experience or paying for time. If it’s a rate per event or a rate per hour. Of course, we are going to say it’s both because sometimes it’s advantageous to negotiate an experiential price and sometimes it’s advantageous to negotiate a timely price. We – client and provider – want to maximize gain and minimize cost.

I think that potentiating internalized shame comes into play. Your illustration about work prompted me to think about overarching themes. 

I, too, overworked and overperformed, and that may be partly an elective compensatory trait geared to proving worth. Although rising to the high bar of a challenge can be edifying, no?

I have to watch that I don’t overcompensate for providers’ implicit meta-messaging about performative labour they are putting up with, or my own projection of that shame onto the dynamic. 

Similarly, in brothel settings watch that I don’t take the attitude: “You are better off accepting a less than ideal amount from me compared to scoring zilch waiting for a job offer.” 

Edited April 15, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Jaroslav]

@SirBillybob, fascinating perspective, and one definitely worth considering more deeply.

I definitely love my job but I am also definitely underappreciated by those I work with. That’s the reality for many. I couldn’t imagine doing something else because in part, I’m not in it for the money. Although money is obviously important.

decency goes along way. Particularly in industries that want to style themselves “service.“ If you’re truly serving, then you’re going to come out on the short end of the stick. The nature of servanthood and service is to be diminutive. Anybody who works in any type of service needs to accept that going in. Does it mean that at times I don’t get cynical or even resentful? By no means. But it’s important to ground yourself in the choice that you made.

Is escorting a service profession? A service job? Is it closer to therapist or waiter? We sometimes compare it to dentistry. Sometimes to airlines. Which is it? Am I approaching a guy who does this largely for the pleasure of his clients or am I approaching a guy who sees clients as a sad-but-necessary burden?

A Facebook friend posted this, given his work around the Easter holiday as a musician: 
 
It seems that some work we’re A-okay saying, “You do XYZ uncompensated,” while others we say, “To expect any one minute dedicated to work without pay is unethical!” I call hypocrisy! I’ve found to be effective at my job I do a helluva lot more work than I’m fairly compensated for.

Hey! Maybe I should become an escort 🤣 

[SirBillybob]

Well, drillings and fillings in my bazoo but sometimes wanna send back the dish. Desserts not all just. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Jamie21]

9 minutes ago, Jaroslav said:

Hey! Maybe I should become an escort 🤣 

Maybe you should! You seem to know how it all should work. 

[Jaroslav]

8 minutes ago, Jamie21 said:

Maybe you should! You seem to know how it all should work. 

Sounds like snark. 

[Jaroslav]

I don’t have it anymore figured out than anyone else who’s not an escort. But just because you say it’s so doesn’t make it so.

The whole point of this thread is honesty and clarity of communication.

But clarity removes the leverage providers have over clients (in escorting and in business in general) so of course there’s a desire to maintain ambiguity.

[SirBillybob]

What only a really hot guy and experienced escort can maybe get away with, and this is a direct straight-faced quote, year 2004, (albeit translated to English) from a regular provider: “If you want my condomed dick in your mouth for a few minutes, that shifts us into the territory of muscle worship and the fee you’ve been paying goes from $300 to $900.”

Sure, it’s an extreme example but this, my first experience of repeat hiring, reflected that he is no less the face of sex trade dynamics than any other, and represented that negotiating is def on the table. It’s not solidly baked in; the dish isn’t done until that component is stirred in, two hands too spoons.

He taught me that … so don’t shoot me; shoot the representative. If escorts wish to distance from his playbook, fine. I myself have a fiduciary responsibility to fairly represent my own service field, so I can just as easily assert that the vicissitudes of negotiation are a ‘you problem, not a me problem’. 

Parenthetically, we locked in at $300 for a few subsequent years. He took his shot that I was obsessed and he openly admitted it. I would be more amenable to buying the ‘bad apple’ theory if there weren’t the degree of evidence that the homeostasis of ambiguity, the ambiguity that @Jaroslav referenced earlier, is supported by the profession. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by SirBillybob

[DWnyc]

4 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

I'm sure I couldn't haggle with my local corner shop owner. It's either a set price for a bottle of Coke or loaf of bread, or I don't buy it. pretty simple. 

There are several standards in negotiation theory, classes, books etc

One is you should always be negotiating whether for a hot dog or a multimillion dollar contract. As you need to always be on alert to see where there may be flexibility so you need this trait internalized.

Another is, don’t assume things aren’t negotiable as almost everything is.

I’ve paid “not published” prices for things at my corner shop (deli) many times 😊 It doesn’t make me an ass, since I’m not imposing the paid price and it’s with mutual ageeement which there wouldn’t be if it caused pain for either party. Im not bargaining every time I buy a can of Coke, but if I’m buying out his entire supply of coke for a dinner party (which I’ve done) there may be a conversation (and it’s rare he’s said “sorry I can’t do that”).

The owner gets my loyalty and maybe that makes him agreeable to sensible proposals since there are 5 other identical stores within walking distance of my residence. 

[DWnyc]

1 minute ago, arnemgreeves said:

I'm not an escort but I must agree. I can't say I've ever haggled for any escort.

The closest is admitting I don't have the money stated. Like one time, due to a mix of running late and boneheadness on my part, I had £100 in cash when the escort was charging £120. Luckily, they accepted £100, which they had no obligation to do. If they said "no" or "go to the ATM nearby to get the correct money", then i'd have complied. We don't undercut in other transactions. For me, escorting should be no different. 

And I would say what you did here was worse than negotiating for £20 reduction (even if unintentional) and what the provider did was effectively a negotiation (to him it’s the same thing,  £20 less than his published price) and he wouldn’t have done that if it was not feasible, showing you a degree of flexibility.

Im not suggesting you then need to bargain him down in the future based on this, and maybe you (like me) in this situation would send him the balance later or add to a subsequent booking. Just saying nothing is fixed.

This framework of escorting is unique, sole providers have special price fixing privilege (in the market as a whole) etc doesn’t make sense to me when viewing through a market / business lens.  Yes they can set their own prices, and yes clients can walk away if they can’t or won’t pay the published price, but I don’t understand what is so offensive about proposing an alternative arrangement that the provider has no obligation to accept or even consider, that may result in some (as opposed to zero) revenue from a booking that is actually made (vs not made).

[DWnyc]

3 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

I disagree. It comes across as cheap, and they always have the capacity to say no. A person selling a good or service gets my loyalty from providing a good or service to my satisfaction. I just exercise choice in where I get shit from. If haggling isn't ingrained into the culture of a product, I wouldn't do it. 

We clearly have a fundamental difference in how we view the world and that’s ok, and I’ll likely stop engaging on this since we’re going around in circles talking past each other.

Personally I don’t negotiate in this business, and I’ve even gone as far as to pay extra when asked by providers for all sorts of nonsense after a price has been fixed. But I don’t think those who try are doing anything unethical / immoral etc / and the provider has every right to shut down a negotiation conversation at any point in the discussion (including right at the start) so where’s the harm to anyone here? 

I’ll add at likely my last comment in this thread: I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve had an exchange with a provider on asking their rate, receiving an answer, I thank them and say sorry not for me and assume that’s the end of the conversation, and then they come back volunteering a counteroffer I never asked for. That’s totally cool, but I don’t accept that they only have the right to discuss price and clients don’t.

[Jaroslav]

48 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

We don't undercut in other transactions

If said escort is late, I expect a cut rate without question. Or extended time. If that’s off the table for you, shut your sanctimonious mouth. I’ve had escorts take my money, expect my money for the full time and be hours late. It’s not about fairness and ethics here as you seem to naively and stupidly insist. I as the client don’t have any obligation to pay for time promised but not spent with me. You’re making me angry by myopically insisting that only clients seek to undercut here.

You’re also imposing British expectations on an American market. Also annoyingly blind to nuance and circumstances. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Jaroslav

[Marc in Calif]

4 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

But seriously…who still goes to Best Buy? 

Nice deflection! The fact remains that you cannot negotiate their prices. 😊

[Jaroslav]

I may not be an escort. But I am a client. An experienced client. And I’ve had escorts set up interactions that will lead to negotiations (test my limits) by asking what I’m offering in response to a simple inquiry about rate. That sets the table for negotiation. Likewise I’ve had escorts undercut me. Multiple escorts, so it’s not one off. Don’t shit on a plate and tell me it’s chocolate. Don’t insult my intelligence and gaslight by saying, “Well, that’s not really negotiating” or “The provider has a set price.” It’s simply not always true. 

[Jaroslav]

1 minute ago, Marc in Calif said:

Nice deflection! The fact remains that you cannot negotiate their prices. 😊

It was levity. I don’t go there. So no. I can’t. Nor would I.

But…Show me the store where escorts sit in a booth with prices hanging off their dicks for me go browse and I’ll accept the one-for-one comparison between escorts and US big box stores…

[Marc in Calif]

2 hours ago, Jaroslav said:

I get a salary. A salary way under the salaries of many in other fields with similar levels of education but a salary nonetheless. I also work 70-80 hours a week and am on call 24/7.

According to some commenters in this thread, you should definitely be negotiating that salary WAY UP! 

⬆️⬆️⬆️

If they don't like your negotiated salary requirements, you walk out. 🚶‍♂️

Simple, no?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[SirBillybob]

Sexual desire is multidimensionally appetitive, an instinctive imperative if you will, and more prone to transient dissociative states and suspended judgement as a direct result of the robust combination of the biophysiological and psychosocial. I don’t grasp the merit of sub-appetitive commodities as analogies for fee discourse. Bangs trims and terrific bangs are miles apart. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Marc in Calif]

22 hours ago, SirBillybob said:

Is obnoxious the new sensual?

If you see an outcome as having beaten you down, and you’re snarky about either another’s debate position, or content and its length, then you’re suggesting you easily land behind enemy lines. Not a good look. 

On anonymous online forums, excruciatingly overt pedantry is simply obnoxious. It is "not a good look" for someone trying to communicate with readers he doesn't know.

It's like satire written by Senator Rafael Edward Cruz — impossible to pull off without the guy looking as if he's terribly lame and in WAY over his head. 😘

[SirBillybob]

21 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

On anonymous online forums, excruciatingly overt pedantry is simply obnoxious. It is "not a good look" for someone trying to communicate with readers he doesn't know.

It's like satire written by Senator Rafael Edward Cruz — impossible to pull off without the guy looking as if he's terribly lame and in WAY over his head. 😘

Hows about we make a deal. I’ll assume that my content won’t track with everyone and I won’t grouse about your comparator of degree of satirical acumen possessed by an obscure politician with whom I am completely unfamiliar.

So … your audience isn’t me; you’re attempting to castigate me by showing off with an audience in which I am excluded. How convoluted is that? You are apparently a pretender all-knowing of me but don’t know me while sending up that among my deficiencies is not adequately knowing the body of target audience recipients.

What actual degree of merit, of quality, do you expect me to attribute to your editorial input? I’m not trying to be mean. And I’m not cut off at the knees; I know how to handle all types. But I am genuinely curious. 

Parenthetically, the other guy and I worked it out amicably and aren’t looking to beat a dead horse.

Edited April 15, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Marc in Calif]

2 minutes ago, SirBillybob said:

What actual degree of merit, of quality, do you expect me to attribute to your editorial input? I’m not trying to be mean. And I’m not cut off at the knees; I know how to handle all types. But I am genuinely curious. 

Parenthetically, the other guy and I worked it out amicably and aren’t looking to beat a dead horse.

What actual degree of merit, of quality, do you expect me to derive from your ridiculously florid prose?

I am genuinely curious. Why do you do it? For your own amusement? 

[SirBillybob]

13 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

What actual degree of merit, of quality, do you expect me to derive from your ridiculously florid prose?

I am genuinely curious. Why do you do it? For your own amusement? 

I didn’t initiate a dust-up with you and I’m shutting it down. Take it to another mat. It’s also completely tangential to the flow of the topic. Like I said, a minor blip was followed by a make-up kiss. If this is a visa application for any sense of accountability on my part, to you directly, it’s “in progress”. You are seething and I have better things to do. I’m not trying to pull off your wings for shits and giggles. You do you.

Edited April 15, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Jaroslav]

5 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

Well the discussion is about haggling for escorts fees. Which you started, incidentally. And good that I make you angry by your country’s shitty and puritanical prostitution laws. You should unite with Iran and not beef with them coz you got theocracy in common. 

Or you should accept reality and not impose some fantasy of your own concoction. If you insist on continuing in that fantasy, that, my friend, we call deluuuuuusional.

[TorontoDrew]

I'm not a fan of haggling.  I f I don't think the price is fair for that market I'll move on.  Fortunately I have a lot of choice in Toronto.

That being said, if a provider contacted me first I'm likely to tell them they are overcharging and 5hat I would only pay $x.

[Jaroslav]

@SirBillybob, I understand your prose just fine and enjoy it. It’s nice to read something written by someone who clearly possesses a vocabulary larger than your quotidian troglodyte.