M4M Forum Stakeholder Alignment and Client Review DB

[+ JoeMendoza]

This is controversial, but shady Joe is here to ask the questions (and maybe challenge our status quo).

• M4M Forum Stakeholder Alignment - do we as a forum (clients, providers, everybody else in-between) still see this forum as a client-centric forum, or is there a possibility to shift the paradigm into something that gives both clients and providers equal voice and footing into the site. certainly would defer to the wisdom and discernment of the majority here, but was just curious. 
• Client Review DB - along the same vein as the aforementioned question, what is the general appetite for both providers and clients in the forum to have a client review DB, similar to what is being implemented for providers (e.g., Daddy's Reviews 2.0)? i have read some stuff in the recent and archived threads in the forum about bad apples not just with providers, but also with clients who either stalk, or worse, denigrate some providers either from one-off bad experiences or just out of malice and spite. would having a DB highlighting or reviewing a client (tagged by forum account name) behavior be amenable to the forum?

[BuffaloKyle]

-Forum should be geared towards clients because we outnumber providers on here big time. 

-Big time NO for a client review database. One major thing for instance for me is none of the providers I have been with are even on this forum. And clients expect a lot more discretion and privacy than providers. I am sure providers in major cities will share stories and information between themselves of clients that are strictly game players or ones to avoid. 

[RadioRob]

My personal two cents… this site is targeted to gay men in general and not client or provider. While there is a heavy tilt to discussions around escorting (approximately 40-45% in fact), more than half of the site is around other “interests” such as:

- Masseurs
- Politics
- Entertainment
- Sports
- Picture sharing

As a long term vision… my goal is to make this site more than “just” a forum. I want to make it a community driven destination that caters to gay gentlemen. That would include various types of reviews (escort, massage, venue, social media accounts), news feeds, streamlined photo/short video sharing, etc. 

In terms of a client review database, that is a sensitive topic. There is a private club for escorts today. My suggestion would be to use it for private discussions outside of the “public arena”. If that area were to gain heavy interest/activity, I would not be opposed to supporting a separate private site only for escorts. I would help “keep the lights on”, but I would want the premise/purpose driven by another escort as it would not be appropriate for me to say what they wanted/needed. 

[+ purplekow]

A client review section would be disruptive and destructive.  Clients are not advertising their availablity as clients.  .  Clients are spending not earning money.  Clients expect a high degree of discretion.  Many clients are utilizing escort services to insure privacy of their identity and perhaps to satisfy peccadillos that may be difficult to satisfy outside of a professional relationship and few would welcome that information becoming public fodder.   

I believe a client review section would only serve a few persons with prurient interests in sex life of others.  If the client wishes to share that will the public, that is his choice; and he may do so in a review.  

 

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

One thing remains, if this site stopped giving escorts 'the last word' in responding to reviews, I'd reconsider my own participation.

HB and Daddy got that one exactly right.

Client reviews won't bode well.  They'll only create more work for the mods.  It invites drama.  No bueno.

Escort reviews shouldn't be on the message board, unless previously vetted by staff.

The point of everything should be to streamline and mechanize while keeping members happy with easy to grasp features.

[RadioRob]

The plan has ALWAYS been to give the escort the last word.  No change there at all. 

[+ Lucky]

11 hours ago, RadioRob said:

My personal two cents… this site is targeted to gay men in general and not client or provider. While there is a heavy tilt to discussions around escorting (approximately 40-45% in fact), more than half of the site is around other “interests” such as:

- Masseurs
- Politics
- Entertainment
- Sports
- Picture sharing

As a long term vision… my goal is to make this site more than “just” a forum. I want to make it a community driven destination that caters to gay gentlemen. That would include various types of reviews (escort, massage, venue, social media accounts), news feeds, streamlined photo/short video sharing, etc. 

In terms of a client review database, that is a sensitive topic. There is a private club for escorts today. My suggestion would be to use it for private discussions outside of the “public arena”. If that area were to gain heavy interest/activity, I would not be opposed to supporting a separate private site only for escorts. I would help “keep the lights on”, but I would want the premise/purpose driven by another escort as it would not be appropriate for me to say what they wanted/needed. 

There was a time when I believed that a consensus developed my members of the forum set the stakes for the future of the site. In other words, the members decided, not one man. This of course was when the site appeared to be dying after Daddy's death and the members showed the resolve to keep it going.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

1 hour ago, Lucky said:

There was a time when I believed that a consensus developed my members of the forum set the stakes for the future of the site. In other words, the members decided, not one man. This of course was when the site appeared to be dying after Daddy's death and the members showed the resolve to keep it going.

Member consensus isn't a strong suit around here.  The energy it would take to get everyone to agree would be a huge waste of time and resource.

Rob seems to be be both open to suggestion and doing well with the steering wheel.  I don't see why that needs to change.

He has a team of mods who have handled things with a gentler touch, but while still keeping things in line.

 

Let's not kill the goose that laid the golden egg just yet, no?

[+ JoeMendoza]

I ❤️ and trust @RadioRob and his plans for the forum. 

[RadioRob]

2 hours ago, Lucky said:

There was a time when I believed that a consensus developed my members of the forum set the stakes for the future of the site. In other words, the members decided, not one man. This of course was when the site appeared to be dying after Daddy's death and the members showed the resolve to keep it going.

Trying to do everything by consensus would be very difficult.  However I do think we've come up with somewhat of a hybrid approach to management.  I never want this to be a "one man show" but having the membership vote on everything would cause more drama and heartache in addition to slowing things down.

In terms of any major "architectural" changes, these are discussed with the moderators first where we come to a high level agreement.  When appropriate, I also involve members of the forum to help as well.  For example, with the new review site we have an entire forum dedicated to feedback on that feature.  A good number of the changes made have come directly from the feedback given.  For the new image gallery, I've been working with some of the site's most frequent image posters to get their feedback and incorporate it into what is being done.  That work was not done publicly but instad via 

The creation of this forum (Features and Feedback) was also part of my efforts to involve the members here more.  I *try* to provide a response to all of the questions asked and not just say yes/no, but provide details on why.  There are some suggestions that I'm able to implement such as dark mode, improving the site search, adding new reactions, etc.  Other suggestions might have technical limitations or introduce other bigger issues or even conflict with other suggestions.  My goal is to listen as much as possible and where possible, use the feedback given.  

In terms of enforcement of the community guidelines, you may have noticed I don't take lead on that front.  The moderators have primary responsibility.  If it's something blatantly obvious such as spam, or a non-controversial decision (move this topic from Forum X to Y), I (or ANY moderator for that matter) might handle a report and simply close it out.  For the more controversial reports, it's generally a group consensus where I'll also chime in as appropriate.  It's never been just me making a decision to discipline a member.  There have been some cases where I've had strong disagreements with something that had been decided, but you can ask any of the moderators that I've never played the "Well I'm an admin and I can do what I want" card.  

Finally I've also made an effort to try and be as open as possible regarding what I'm doing.  This includes trying to provide regular updates on changes made (through the Announcements forum) and providing updates on site traffic/usage/trends.  I see this being important so that people have an easier time understanding what has been done and why.  

At the end of the day, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect.  I also know that anything I do will never please 100% of the site's members.  However my promise to the members has always been that I will always try to do the right thing and where possible work to build consensus as we move forward.    

If you have any ideas or suggestions for things that could be done differently, I would welcome the feedback.  I might suggest starting a new thread so that we don't derail the original conversation however.  If you're not comfortable posting them, feel free to send me a private message and I'll be happy to discuss.   

 

[+ Lucky]

I have confidence in @RadioRob. It's just that we, as members, saved this site by our almost unanimous willingness to keep it alive. I thought that going forward, there would be less Daddy style management and more member consensus. I know we never are unanimous, but we showed a clear intent and result when the fate of the site was not looking so good.

 I have no doubts about the moderators here. I can't discuss their actions, but I can state that I support them and appreciate them, along with @RadioRobBasically I am just saying that consulting the members before making site decisions is a good idea.

[RadioRob]

I appreciate the comment.  My goal is to continue to solicit feedback as we move forward. It obviously does not make sense for everything we do, but for the bigger things it certainly makes sense.  I’m also not opposed to feedback even after something is done as well.  This is literally the purpose of this forum. 

[+ purplekow]

7 hours ago, Benjamin_Nicholas said:

One thing remains, if this site stopped giving escorts 'the last word' in responding to reviews, I'd reconsider my own participation.

HB and Daddy got that one exactly right.

Client reviews won't bode well.  They'll only create more work for the mods.  It invites drama.  No bueno.

Escort reviews shouldn't be on the message board, unless previously vetted by staff.

The point of everything should be to streamline and mechanize while keeping members happy with easy to grasp features.

One of my favorite things is easy to grasp features.  Unlike my own which I sometimes have to spend minutes to find

[+ DynamicUno]

Providers and clients should be on equal standing as members when discussing the structure and functioning of the forum and review database.  If the review function becomes toxic to providers in general then everyone is badly served by it.  If it's not providing any value for clients trying to see if a hire is a good fit for them, we're just as badly served.   Also there are many members who neither hire nor provide who shouldn't be discounted either, and they also have a say in how the rest of the forum functions.

I believe the old review format where a reviewer could describe their experience and the provider had the last say worked well and made sense.  Keeping reviews out of general discussion kept detractors and defenders of certian providers from spiriling out of control.

A client review database would be highly detrimental to this site.  Provider's are publically advertisng a service and the reviews should reflect the experiences have had engaging their services.  Clients who hire in a way that is tied to their accounts here is probably pretty limited, many hire semi-anonymously so doxxing would be a concern.  

There are venues where sex workers exchange info on problematic clients.  There's a private discussion room on this site that could be used for that purpose, but I think there are more established places for it.

[pubic_assistance]

I am a little surprised to see the negative reaction toward a client review.

Escorting and other body work is a business that leaves the providers highly exposed to risk. Leaving a word on inappropriate clients seems reasonable, considerate and concerned.

[jetlow]

I say nay on reviewing clients - only because being a client as problematic in certain jurisdictions.  I realize it the same for the providers also.

I propose a half way, people can opt in to be reviewed - if they are in a jurisdiction where this is not problematic. 

RM has it correct - auto block based on geo location

Edited November 29, 2021 by jetlow

[thedanNYC]

What would reviewing a client even accomplish, I wonder? How many guys are out there giving out their actual cellphone number (instead of an easily replaceable burner/VoIP number) and real name? And out of those guys, how many would switch to using a burner number/fake name once they see they've been poorly reviewed?

I suppose reviews could help therapists/escorts when it comes to clients asking for in-calls, in which case a meaningful review would require disclosing clients' addresses (which is a safety issue).

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Client reviews aren't really a thing (not here at least).

Private group blacklists still exist.  If someone is a problem, it will quietly be known.

I prefer to keep this place as a 'gentleman's club' of sorts: If we put people here on edge, it won't lend itself to productive, open conversation.

[lonely_john]

Reviews here could have the same problems than reviews on Rent.men

Such as providers posting their own reviews, negative reviews by vengeful clients or competitors, etc.

Client reviews would only add an unnecessary workload for admin staff of the forum.

In general, (online) business reviews are for products or services, not clients.

It works that way in Google, Facebook, Amazon, Yelp, Trip-advisor, Better Business Bureau, etc.

No need to reinvent the wheel where there's already an efficient model that works.

In the end, providers can turn their replies to reviews into clients' reviews.

Edited November 30, 2021 by lonely_john

[jetlow]

6 hours ago, Benjamin_Nicholas said:

 

Private group blacklists still exist.  If someone is a problem, it will quietly be known.

I know there is a London one ( a provider told me about this ) organized by phone number and name post code   .  I wonder if there is a US one ? - I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an NYC private group 

As far as I know I’m a good client  but one is always curious if any of my hires left me a bad review    

Edited November 30, 2021 by jetlow