Is there something wrong/immoral about hiring? My thoughts...and yours

[+ SundayZip]

Was it immoral for Melania Knauss to marry Donald Trump? How about the marriage of Marla Maples to her ex-husband?

[+ Coolwave35]

Until about 2017 I had often felt shame and guilt around the hobby. My regular guy with whom I was very close died tragically. Shortly after his mother called me and asked to meet. I was mortified but agreed to go to lunch with her, and her two other kids. She said she had to know this part of his life.

 

At lunch, she opened up with something along the lines of “I know you gave my son a lot of money. I don’t care to know why. We know that it allowed him to live his best life and focus 110% on his sobriety over the past 18 months and we realize we have you to thank for helping him stay clean.”

 

She made it clear that she knew that he was going to sell his body anyway. He could do it from a place of desperation to fuel a drug addiction (as he had in his past), or from a sober place to make money to support a healthy life. She believed that whatever relationship we had helped him make the choice to live sober. She was right.

 

That lunch totally changed my perspective on hiring and any feelings of guilt or shame I had around the hobby.

 

Since then, I spoke about this man, and the origins of our transactional relationship to close friends and family and it helped with the immense grief I was feeling. Until that point, they didn’t understand why I was grieving a man I’d never spoken of or introduced them to. It made us all closer. It also opened the door to “well actually, I’ve never told anyone this, but once in Vegas, or once when I was visiting Asia....”.

 

It opened me up to participating at this forum, meeting other clients, sharing stories on the Adonis Friday night events etc. To take it a little further, all of my gay friends know that I hire, most of the straight ones, and most importantly my husband.

 

The place I host these boys is on a very public highway in my small town. My gay friends will often text during a session because they see a car that they don’t recognize and then want all the details. Dishing afterwards, guilt and shame free, has ALMOST become more fun than the actual time spent with a hot human. Almost.

[caliguy]

Gentleman....It is the law of supply and demand, the haves and the have nots. The trophy wives and spoiled housewives found in the soccer stands of every private high school married to curmudgeonly old guys are the same. An escort may be a little more transactional, but the basics are the same, an exchange of wants and haves. The problem comes when respect is an issue. Service is better in a store that is nice, appreciative and respectful of the customer. Customers get better treatment when they are respectful, pleasant and pay the price asked. Escorting is the same, it's all commerce.

Yeah, while the first prostitute err... lady was knocked up with a kid Donnie was out banging others like Stormy Daniels. Yet prostitution is still illegal in this country. Lol

 

There seems to be a prostitution hierarchy though. Trophy wives/husbands are at the top and best paid. Then the porn stars who sometimes even look down on escorts as beneath them. I think escorting is at least the most honest of the professions though.

[+ FrankR]

Gentleman....It is the law of supply and demand, the haves and the have nots. The trophy wives and spoiled housewives found in the soccer stands of every private high school married to curmudgeonly old guys are the same. An escort may be a little more transactional, but the basics are the same, an exchange of wants and haves. The problem comes when respect is an issue. Service is better in a store that is nice, appreciative and respectful of the customer. Customers get better treatment when they are respectful, pleasant and pay the price asked. Escorting is the same, it's all commerce.

Don't refer to it as commerce! I'll have to start applying the Uniform Commercial Code to all my fun time! ?

[Merboy]

Thanks everyone for the great commentary! Be safe and have fun out there ? Can't wait until this COVID is over for good

[cany10011]

Color me jealous. This is something I don’t have in my life and, because of secrecy, I often find myself saying, “Damn! That was [great, terrible, hot, etc.] and I can’t WAIT to tell...oh, right. Who the hell would I tell?”

It‘s always fun sharing experiences.... !

[wsc]

Morality is usually defined as the rightness or wrongness (goodness or badness) of an act. It always involves a person's values. Certainly, there are various degrees of rightness and wrongness. Some acts are plainly wrong e.g. killing for no reason. Some acts fall into a gray area - there are shades of good and bad. Paying for sex is not "good" in many value systems (esp religious) even though many who practice religion also engage in prostitution (usually as buyers). Does any "good" come from prostitution? Some rely on it for sustenance. Others who have no other outlets have their lusts satisfied (what the church calls "the remedy for concupiscence"). Does bad ever come from prostitution? Some connect drugs to it; others say it is demeaning and cheapens sex. I personally would say that the morality of hiring depends on several contexts that only the individual can determine. I doubt that it led to the fall of Rome as some have speculated, but I also believe that stable, monogamous relationships stabilize a society. From a religious standpoint, I am personally hoping that God (should She exist) will take into account whether one was a caring, honest, giving person rather than whether he paid to get his rocks off. It didn't seem to bother his Son who used to hang around with prostitutes and found them closer to the Father than the so-called religious folks.

Touching on the religion connection to morality and the role and place of God in such matters, Christopher Hitchens, the sadly departed evangelical atheist, provided an enlightening perspective.

 

Hitchens went through the history of mankind's explorations and discoveries about the cosmos, including the Big Bang, followed by the inflation and expansion of the newly minted universe, the vastness and scale of the cosmos (hundreds of billions of stars in hundreds of billions of galaxies), the birth and death of stars and their planets, and the possibilities and probabilities of widespread life throughout the universe.

 

He then went on to describe the origins and evolution of life on earth, its long history and almost incomprehensible complexity and variety, it's vitality and its fragility, and the long ascent that produced the hominin species, culminating in modern Homo sapiens; that is, Us!

 

And, he then said, all this so the Pope could tell us we can't jack-off.

 

Draw you own conclusions.

[+ azdr0710]

Touching on the religion connection to morality and the role and place of God in such matters, Christopher Hitchens, the sadly departed evangelical atheist, provided an enlightening perspective.

 

Hitchens went through the history of mankind's explorations and discoveries about the cosmos, including the Big Bang, followed by the inflation and expansion of the newly minted universe, the vastness and scale of the cosmos (hundreds of billions of stars in hundreds of billions of galaxies), the birth and death of stars and their planets, and the possibilities and probabilities of widespread life throughout the universe.

 

He then went on to describe the origins and evolution of life on earth, its long history and almost incomprehensible complexity and variety, it's vitality and its fragility, and the long ascent that produced the hominin species, culminating in modern Homo sapiens; that is, Us!

 

And, he then said, all this so the Pope could tell us we can't jack-off.

 

Draw you own conclusions.

 

related to all this, can anybody clarify the true origins of why paid sex work became looked down upon?.....goes way back, of course.......but, for example, ancient Rome was, supposedly, wide open and promiscuous.....were the origins in the church because of widespread venereal diseases?.....or something else that wasn't religion-/church-related?......I know many of todays's noble beliefs and morals have very practical and logical origins.....thanks for any ideas.......

[wsc]

related to all this, can anybody clarify the true origins of why paid sex work became looked down upon?.....goes way back, of course.......but, for example, ancient Rome was, supposedly, wide open and promiscuous.....were the origins in the church because of widespread venereal diseases?.....or something else that wasn't religion-/church-related?......I know many of todays's noble beliefs and morals have very practical and logical origins.....thanks for any ideas.......

Without much refresher research and relying on an increasingly suspect memory, Ancients in Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, and Canaan, I think, probably among others, had temple prostitutes, which were exactly what it sounds like; you get screwed and the gods get your money. Pretty much the same as now, but minus the fun parts.

 

When the people of the God of Abraham moved into Canaan, their one and only God told them not to mix with or be like the Canaanites, with their many gods and unclean ways, which presumably included the temple prostitutes. I'm not surprised that a religion centered around foreskins suffered from sexual hang-ups. But much of the initial antipathy toward sex workers arose among the children of Abraham, not so much because of the sex aspect, but because of their association with what were seen as false gods. It's almost undoubtedly more complex and nuanced than that, but it's at least part of the mix.

[sexymonk]

My two cents: Nothing wrong in hiring. It saves time on grindr by the too much back and forth messages. Also on RM we can meet same person again and again and say bye to one night stand! It is bad if exploitation is involved though!

[mike carey]

related to all this, can anybody clarify the true origins of why paid sex work became looked down upon?..

Without much refresher research and relying on an increasingly suspect memory, Ancients in Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, and Canaan, I think, probably among others, had temple prostitutes, which were exactly what it sounds like; you get screwed and the gods get your money. Pretty much the same as now, but minus the fun parts.

The origins and the current status are probably related, but is a way the link is no longer relevant. In most societies that are influenced by religions, more particularly the Abrahamic ones, the morality of sex work is tied up with the morality of sex more broadly. Sex has a particular status of being a uniquely special interaction between two people, and anything that seems at odds with that special status is seen as immoral. The Church view that sex is must be within wedlock and must have the purpose of procreation makes anything other than that immoral in the view of the Church, and it's not a view unknown outside the Church. On that morality scale, anything outside married procreative sex is immoral and should be equally so, there should be no tiers of immorality but there are. A lot of it comes down to, 'Things I don't like are immoral', which is not the basis for a system of government. (Keen observers will see what I did there.)

 

There's a lot of muddled thinking and hypocrisy around the issue. If you accept that recreational sex or sex out of wedlock are not immoral it's a bit of a stretch to think that paid sex is. Still it's a relatively cost free way for some people to excuse some of their own behaviours and set themselves up as being moral by condemning something they don't do as immoral. Also it's easy to be captured by an institutional view of a hierarchy of morality and to feel guilt if you transgress it.

 

If you question the idea of sex as a moral minefield, consider the famous 'I did not have sex with that woman'. That is premised on the view that there are times when sex is immoral, and therefore more effort goes into proving that what you did was not sex rather than address the idea that if there was anything immoral it was the whole situation rather than the specifics of which tab went into which slot. (To be clear, I see marital fidelity as part of the contract, and negotiable during the term of the contract, not part of the definition of the arrangement or an issue of morality.)

 

So no, I don't think hiring is immoral, either for the hirer or the provider. The arguments about trafficking are just so much nonsense. Restaurants can and do exploit workers and arrange to have people trafficked for that work. That doesn't make them immoral. Even on the premise that sex work may not be moral, the possibility that some workers might be trafficked would not make it more so. The only truly immoral thing in any way linked to sex work is the army of campaigners against it who buy its services.

[tenderloin]

Two interesting questions raised here -

 

1. On the morality of hiring - having hired for about 20 years now, I am pretty comfortable ethically with the concept. The only thing that gives me pause is the rare occasion when I get the sense that the guy I am with has some form of mental/emotional disability. I begin to worry that I am taking advantage of someone who is not necessarily quite compos mentis. The few times it has happened, I wasn't sure if it was mood disorder, drugs, or just a guy having a really bad day. Whatever the cause, I usually just tried to treat the guy decently as I indulged. One time, though, a guy showed up who was such an emotional basket case that I gave him about a hundred and sent him on his way.

 

2. When did the oldest profession become frowned upon? I think it (and most "rules of morality") stem from issues of property/inheritance and that primal need to ensure that a man's genes will survive him . The king needs to be confident that it is his son who's going to inherit the kingdom; the farmer wants to be confident that it is his son who's going to inherit the farm. A female prostitute is the ultimate example of genetic confusion -- the father of her child could be anyone in town, and that's messy.

[wsc]

The origins and the current status are probably related, but is a way the link is no longer relevant. In most societies that are influenced by religions, more particularly the Abrahamic ones, the morality of sex work is tied up with the morality of sex more broadly. Sex has a particular status of being a uniquely special interaction between two people, and anything that seems at odds with that special status is seen as immoral. The Church view that sex is must be within wedlock and must have the purpose of procreation makes anything other than that immoral in the view of the Church, and it's not a view unknown outside the Church. On that morality scale, anything outside married procreative sex is immoral and should be equally so, there should be no tiers of immorality but there are. A lot of it comes down to, 'Things I don't like are immoral', which is not the basis for a system of government. (Keen observers will see what I did there.)

 

There's a lot of muddled thinking and hypocrisy around the issue. If you accept that recreational sex or sex out of wedlock are not immoral it's a bit of a stretch to think that paid sex is. Still it's a relatively cost free way for some people to excuse some of their own behaviours and set themselves up as being moral by condemning something they don't do as immoral. Also it's easy to be captured by an institutional view of a hierarchy of morality and to feel guilt if you transgress it.

 

If you question the idea of sex as a moral minefield, consider the famous 'I did not have sex with that woman'. That is premised on the view that there are times when sex is immoral, and therefore more effort goes into proving that what you did was not sex rather than address the idea that if there was anything immoral it was the whole situation rather than the specifics of which tab went into which slot. (To be clear, I see marital fidelity as part of the contract, and negotiable during the term of the contract, not part of the definition of the arrangement or an issue of morality.)

 

So no, I don't think hiring is immoral, either for the hirer or the provider. The arguments about trafficking are just so much nonsense. Restaurants can and do exploit workers and arrange to have people trafficked for that work. That doesn't make them immoral. Even on the premise that sex work may not be moral, the possibility that some workers might be trafficked would not make it more so. The only truly immoral thing in any way linked to sex work is the army of campaigners against it who buy its services.

In some places, sex for money is condemned because it is sex outside marriage, and is therefore contrary to the laws of God, constituting fornication and promoting adultery. The money part is seen as unseemly, perhaps, but the moral defect lies in its extra-marital character. These views are obviously prevalent in societies with strong and extensive religious values and outlooks.

 

European countries, in becoming becoming less religious in outlook and attitudes, have also become more accepting of, or at least more tolerant of, sexual practices previously frowned on. In the United States, however, which remains one of the most religious countries in the world, at least as far as most of its citizens self-identify, strongly puritanical sexual attitudes continue to dominate and determine public policy in this area. Sexual mores within Islam don't seem to go far beyond the male orgasm and leave little to be said of enlightened insights.

 

The Christian view of sex is actually quite permissive within the bonds of marriage, but absolutely illicit outside those bonds. This goes back to conflicts between early Christian teachings as opposed to teachings of a competing Gnostic view of life. The Gnostics believed in a duality of creation consisting a good, spiritual dimension, created by a good god, and an evil, material world, created by an evil god. In the Gnostic view, procreation was evil because it perpetuated the evil material world, making sex an evil in itself. Christian teaching saw sex as a fulfillment of the "be fruitful and multiply" command in Genesis, and therefore a good and holy thing. But only within the bond of "the two shall become one," also a part of the Genesis legacy. I actually find Christian sexual morality a quite cohesive and developed system of thought, flawed only in that in rests on belief in God that doesn't exist. But I'm probably just being picky.

 

We're not there yet, but in general I think we're inching toward a place where my sex is none of my neighbor's business. So long as we're not too loud.

[Epigonos]

Part of the problem in western society is that we far to often equate love with sex -- they are not necessarily the same. They can be the same but a gay escort can and some do have a husband or a partner that they love. When I hire an escort I expect sex NOT love.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Epigonos

[Monarchy79]

Sex work should be legalized. Period.

It can be regulated to better prevent the exploitation of people through human trafficking, underage workers and the exploitation of sex workers from third-world nations; standardize STD testing, to better protect sex workers and clients, and make sex workers, legal independent contractors who can obtain appropriate health insurance, to obtain such benefits as insurance-covered PrEP.

 

It could also put pimps and “handlers”, out of business, which would be awesome.

[Monarchy79]

When you really think about it...

Everyone pays for sex & everything is transactional. Either you’re “paying”, with your money, your time, a returned favor, a dinner date, a gift, or heck, your dignity (yes, mercy fucks come at a price to your soul... lol)

[Redwine56]

While I have not met with any providers myself, I believe your post raises a very important consideration that often gets overlooked. The transaction that takes place is for the provider's time, and it need not result in a sexual encounter.

As related to many other things in life, it comes down to the timing and chemistry between 2 people and their needs. Even if at first the intention of the hire is for a sexual encounter, the 2 guys may get along well, form a bond and look forward to seeing each other for more than just sex. I've seen stories shared on this forum where a client and provider have formed a meaningful relationship and the provider finds a different profession or becomes a made man. What's wrong with that? You never know what a hook-up can lead to. Do what makes you happy as long as you are not harming yourself or anyone else. It's your life to live, so live it.

[+ harey]

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong or immoral with it. I think as long as its between two grown consenting adults, it's nobody's business but their own.

 

I actually think since sex is part of what makes a human healthy, it's perfectly natural for companionship and intimacy to be a service just like any other.

 

I do have to say that I'm speaking of men (hiring and providing) in general here.

 

I do not believe that the government has any business regulating the private matters between two consenting adults. Period.

 

As far as morality is concerned... lol. All of our "moral authorities" have proven themselves completely unworthy of being any authority about morality at all. It's a personal matter and we all have our own values.

 

I'm curious as to what your views are about it. Has anyone dealt with any shame, no matter how small, over the decision to hire or provide and how have you dealt with that?

Hello and happy new year.

 

Your post seems to basically equate escorting with casual sex without factoring in the explicitly transactional nature of the exchange and possibly unhealthy motives or risks. Perhaps I missed something.

 

For example, how would you feel if you were seeing an escort and then realized he hated what he was doing but was desperate for money? Any qualms?

 

Or if you heard of an emotionally vulnerable client who was desperately lonely and being exploited by a manipulative escort who was bleeding the client dry, and the client was willing to take out loans and risk serious financial damage to have more time with the escort to live out a sad fantasy of real love. Do you see any moral concerns in that situation?

[mike carey]

For example, how would you feel if you were seeing an escort and then realized he hated what he was doing but was desperate for money? Any qualms?

 

Or if you heard of an emotionally vulnerable client who was desperately lonely and being exploited by a manipulative escort who was bleeding the client dry, and the client was willing to take out loans and risk serious financial damage to have more time with the escort to live out a sad fantasy of real love. Do you see any moral concerns in that situation?

The question posed in this thread was about the morality of hiring, not the morality of hirers or escorts. Don't confuse the morality of the particular examples you cite with the morality of hiring per se. There are banking and finance practices that are immoral, but that does not make banking and finance immoral industries (although there are perhaps some people who would differ with me on that score).

[+ harey]

The question posed in this thread was about the morality of hiring, not the morality of hirers or escorts. Don't confuse the morality of the particular examples you cite with the morality of hiring per se. There are banking and finance practices that are immoral, but that does not make banking and finance immoral industries (although there are perhaps some people who would differ with me on that score).

I’m not confused. Reread the first and last paragraphs of the OP. It’s a very broad question.

[Skip]

Hello and happy new year.

 

Your post seems to basically equate escorting with casual sex without factoring in the explicitly transactional nature of the exchange and possibly unhealthy motives or risks. Perhaps I missed something.

 

For example, how would you feel if you were seeing an escort and then realized he hated what he was doing but was desperate for money? Any qualms?

 

Or if you heard of an emotionally vulnerable client who was desperately lonely and being exploited by a manipulative escort who was bleeding the client dry, and the client was willing to take out loans and risk serious financial damage to have more time with the escort to live out a sad fantasy of real love. Do you see any moral concerns in that situation?

Lots of people hate their jobs but do it because they are desperate for money. And being bled financially dry to hold on to a partner or a business or a family member.....happens all the time.

[Enronnja]

It bothers just a little, but I feel like I have no choice. I am originally from a very homophobic country and when I moved to the US, I decided I am not gonna live my life with any regret. Of course, I did use the hookup apps with the intention of easy access to sex and body contact. After a while, it just became exhausting. Also, the level of rejection became more and more; not to mention, it was the same faces I was seeing everytime, all of whom I suspect were looking for a unicorn. Thats when I decided, I would start supplementing companionship's using RM.

 

The predictable nature of it is what I find beneficial. I've had hookups from Scruff, A4A and Grindr that turned out to be disastrous. In late 2019, I started using Sniffies as another avenue for easy sex. It was just as depressing as the dedicated apps. I had one hookup with a guy I had my eye on when I moved here and it was great. Ever, since, its been a dead end on the apps.

 

Last December, I made the tough decision to delete all the hookup apps and I honestly feel good. They are no longer time sucks in my life. If I'm horny, I spend a few hours edging to porn (which is a lot of work just finding desireable videos because Only Fans has turned the industry upside down).

 

As someone in this thread mentioned, these days I am window shopping mostly. There was a good opportunity, but everything fell apart on hosting.

 

To wrap this up, I have suffered for most of my life not being able to express my sexual identity (I'm still not out to my family), and I believe I sacrificed so much because of it. To be able to find someone who is willing to spend time with you and be intimate, is in some way powerful, sexy and erotic. Doing that with no strings attached is hugely beneficial. If you both click, even better, you can always meet again.

[marylander1940]

It bothers just a little, but I feel like I have no choice. I am originally from a very homophobic country and when I moved to the US, I decided I am not gonna live my life with any regret. Of course, I did use the hookup apps with the intention of easy access to sex and body contact. After a while, it just became exhausting. Also, the level of rejection became more and more; not to mention, it was the same faces I was seeing everytime, all of whom I suspect were looking for a unicorn. Thats when I decided, I would start supplementing companionship's using RM.

 

The predictable nature of it is what I find beneficial. I've had hookups from Scruff, A4A and Grindr that turned out to be disastrous. In late 2019, I started using Sniffies as another avenue for easy sex. It was just as depressing as the dedicated apps. I had one hookup with a guy I had my eye on when I moved here and it was great. Ever, since, its been a dead end on the apps.

 

Last December, I made the tough decision to delete all the hookup apps and I honestly feel good. They are no longer time sucks in my life. If I'm horny, I spend a few hours edging to porn (which is a lot of work just finding desireable videos because Only Fans has turned the industry upside down).

 

As someone in this thread mentioned, these days I am window shopping mostly. There was a good opportunity, but everything fell apart on hosting.

 

To wrap this up, I have suffered for most of my life not being able to express my sexual identity (I'm still not out to my family), and I believe I sacrificed so much because of it. To be able to find someone who is willing to spend time with you and be intimate, is in some way powerful, sexy and erotic. Doing that with no strings attached is hugely beneficial. If you both click, even better, you can always meet again.

 

you're not alone!

 

as we age or get out of shape we have less choices of "desirable" hookups therefore we're drawn to RM as a complementary source of gay sex. Some even do it at a very young age...

[Merboy]

never thought this thread would get this many replies - thanks everyone ?

[Gymowner]

People are motivated for many different reasons to become sexually intimate with another person. Physical attraction and yearning for an intimate bond that leads into a relationship is the ultimate desire. Yet at times that isnt the case and many people turn outside of that sphere for the connection. To feel loved, to feel secure, to show or feel affection, the desire to be needed, the need to make money, the need to make others feel good and worthy all come into play as factors.

 

My mother told me many years ago "if you are ever ashamed of doing something then that's the reason not to do it". I look at hiring as an indulgence. I'm not ashamed whatsoever to do so and have no issues telling others. If they dont like it then that's on their conscience... not mine.