Descrimination within the LGBT Community

[Chelo]

Hey Guys, i don’t know if the lounge is the correct forum to open this topic. I just wanna know if you ever had or still experiencing a discriminatory remarks base on your skin color, race, too effiminate, weight, body shape lists goes on....within our community. I also wanna know you if you are guilty about these lists above.

 

Hope you’ll find time to share your experiences and how you overcame these horrible acts.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

That's not just a facet of being gay... That's life in-general. Horrible acts are usually what push humans to be better, more successful people.

 

I suggest growing a thick skin in getting through this world: Spending all your time giving a shit about what- most likely- a stranger thinks is a waste of time. Overcoming these things requires laughing it off, putting on the blinders and continuing to move forward.

 

People who openly discriminate say more about themselves than the people they're trying to hurt.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Hey Guys, i don’t know if the lounge is the correct forum to open this topic. I just wanna know if you ever had or still experiencing a discriminatory remarks base on your skin color, race, too effiminate, weight, body shape lists goes on....within our community. I also wanna know you if you are guilty about these lists above.

 

Hope you’ll find time to share your experiences and how you overcame these horrible acts.

 

Who are you? I would advice modeling what you are looking for instead of interrogating other. Perhaps your personal sharing will inspire others to share.

[Chelo]

That's not just a facet of being gay... That's life in-general. Horrible acts are usually what push humans to be better, more successful people.

 

I suggest growing a thick skin in getting through this world: Spending all your time giving a shit about what- most likely- a stranger thinks is a waste of time. Overcoming these things requires laughing it off, putting on the blinders and continuing to move forward.

 

People who openly discriminate say more about themselves than the people they're trying to hurt.

Thanks for your reply.

[+ Avalon]

This is why everyone must be judged as individuals and not as a part of some group.

[Chelo]

This is why everyone must be judged as individuals and not as a part of some group.

True that!

[bigvalboy]

Hey Guys, i don’t know if the lounge is the correct forum to open this topic. I just wanna know if you ever had or still experiencing a discriminatory remarks base on your skin color, race, too effiminate, weight, body shape lists goes on....within our community. I also wanna know you if you are guilty about these lists above.

 

Hope you’ll find time to share your experiences and how you overcame these horrible acts.

 

As you are aware, and should be aware, that bigotry and discrimination is as pervasive in the gay community as it is anywhere, maybe even more so, because it is often disguised and hidden behind the rainbow flag, and wrapped in a veil of subtle sarcasm and hatred, and of course the obligatory 'rolled eyes'. The degree to which those of color and those that don't fit the Madison Avenue ideal physical profile vary of course, but it is still there. AND yes...most, if not all of us have been, or are guilty of discrimination. My life's experience is quite different than most, so I have seen more of the ugly side of society. I don't believe that in my life time, much will change, so my tolerance is near zero. I prefer to spend my days surrounded by those that live their life in truth, whatever that truth might be...I can handle the truth, but I can't handle the dishonesty.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by bigvalboy

[Becket]

Just from my X-Wife. She'll throw out f****t or make some catty remark, usually when I'm not around but our grown kids are. Nice lady. One of those long ago choices I'd definitely reconsider. I do like having my kids, though......so there's that.

[Chelo]

Just from my X-Wife. She'll throw out f****t or make some catty remark, usually when I'm not around but our grown kids are. Nice lady. One of those long ago choices I'd definitely reconsider. I do like having my kids, though......so there's that.

Hahahaha liked your story

[Chelo]

Who are you? I would advice modeling what you are looking for instead of interrogating other. Perhaps your personal sharing will inspire others to share.

It was about my friend who got kicked out in a gay bar in a foreign country because he looks maybe too girly for that gay bar. He was stunned because he never thought that to happened to him specialy in our own community which is known for universal acceptance, love, pride and freedom of expression. Im just curious if anyone has the same/close stories like what happened to him.

[Chelo]

As you are aware, and should be aware, that bigotry and discrimination is as pervasive in the gay community as it is anywhere, maybe even more so, because it is often disguised and hidden behind the rainbow flag, and wrapped in a veil of sarcasm and hatred, and of course the obligatory 'rolled eyes'. The degree to which those of color and those that don't fit the Madison Avenue ideal physical profile vary of course, but it is still there. AND yes...most, if not all of us have been, or are guilty of discrimination. My life's experience is quite different than most, so I have seen more of the ugly side of society. I don't believe that in my life time, much will change, so my tolerance is near zero. I prefer to spend my days surrounded by those the live their life in truth, whatever that truth might be...I can handle the truth, but I can't handle the dishonesty.

 

Sending hugs and kisses to you dear ❤️

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

It was about my friend who got kicked out in a gay bar in a foreign country because he looks maybe too girly for that gay bar. He was stunned because he never thought that to happened to him specialy in our own community which is known for universal acceptance, love, pride and freedom of expression. Im just curious if anyone has the same/close stories like what happened to him.

 

Considering you can get kicked out of gay bars in Japan for being a Westerner, I'm not shocked. It is what it is.

 

You just keep moving on. Take your business elsewhere.

 

As for this: '...our own community which is known for universal acceptance, love, pride and freedom of expression.'

 

I disagree (somewhat). The gay community inner-discriminates amongst our own to a fault.

[RM]

Considering you can get kicked out of gay bars in Japan for being a Westerner, I'm not shocked. It is what it is.

 

You just keep moving on. Take your business elsewhere.

 

As for this: '...our own community which is known for universal acceptance, love, pride and freedom of expression.'

 

I disagree (somewhat). The gay community inner-discriminates amongst our own to a fault.

Long ago one gay bar here had a dress code that women had to wear dresses and drag wasn't allowed. That didn't last long.

[Drained Empty]

Chelo, you can search my posting history to see me talk about discrimination that I face, mostly due to my race.

 

I won't detail them here, but they can be as minor as insults and looks (often by the white gay elite) to serious threats (ironically, an Asian guy threatened to "get a group of guys" to beat me up and find/harrass me at work for expressing a preference for white and black men).

 

For those who say "grow a thick skin" and "stop worrying what people think." As a minority, that very skin is what I'm attacked, othered, and discriminated over. Because many LGB people can visually "pass" as straight (the "norm" in most societies), they typically aren't subject to harrassment like say, an Asian (my ethnicity) is.

 

I worry what strangers think because random they can harrass -- or worse, hurt -- me just based on that skin. And they do. Regularly. Randomly. I intentionally omitted the T/trans above because I believe trans people are subject to the same threats minorities are just based upon appearance.

 

A few more thoughts about "growing a thick skin." Of course I'd love to go through the world not worried about what others think. But it's difficult to "thicken one's skin" when you experience micro and macro-aggessions every day of your life, ever since you were an adolescent. And it gets depressing when you realize that likely for the rest of your life, you will continue to experience that.

 

And sometimes you don't want to just ignore it. As a minority (not just racial, this applies to any group that is put down), sometimes you want to speak out, share your experience, and "fight the good fight." And often when you do, you are told "stop playing the race (or insert whatever else here)" card or to "move on." Even members of this very thread (and an admin) have told me what to do or dismissed my opinions. Sometimes, you are driven to speak out. And consequently told to shut up. That is very invalidating.

 

Unfortunately, those who discriminate often are the ones lauded. In the gay community, it's not surprising that the white elite (the good-looking, fit types that the media and society push as the ideal) are the ones who most frequently and vocally say "no Asians." And sadly, no one blinks and eye when they see or hear that.

 

This lengthy post just scratches the surface of what is means to be an "undersirable" (i.e. Asian, fat, old) in gay society. The saddest part is the internalized racism (I can't tell you how many times another gay Asian has treated me horribly), sizeism and ageism out there in the gay community.

 

If there's one thing I agree with above, it's that our community discriminates to a fault.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Drained Empty

[+ Pensant]

Re ageism. Even though guys have commented that part of my attraction is my self-confidence, I still worry that I’m too old for some guys and, consequently, shy away from pursuing non-hobby relationships. Just this past Saturday, I met a group of girls and their one gay friend at a neighborhood watering hole. I found the guy, 34ish, very cute a fun. On Tuesday night, I dropped by and he was there with one co-worker, female, who left after few minutes. We chatted for over an hour and I summoned the courage to tell him I’d like to keep in touch and he then suggested we share numbers. Outside, we hugged and went our way. The self-limiting mechanism kicked in and now I’m thinking of avoiding this place for a while. Talk about self-sabotage!

[+ sync]

Chelo, you can search my posting history to see me talk about discrimination that I face, mostly due to my race.

 

I won't detail them here, but they can be as minor as insults and looks (often by the white gay elite) to serious threats (ironically, an Asian guy threatened to "get a group of guys" to beat me up and find/harrass me at work for expressing a preference for white and black men).

 

For those who say "grow a thick skin" and "stop worrying what people think." As a minority, that very skin is what I'm attacked, othered, and discriminated over. Because many LGB people can visually "pass" as straight (the "norm" in most societies), they typically aren't subject to harrassment like say, an Asian (my ethnicity) is.

 

I worry what strangers think because random they can harrass -- or worse, hurt -- me just based on that skin. And they do. Regularly. Randomly. I intentionally omitted the T/trans above because I believe trans people are subject to the same threats minorities are just based upon appearance.

 

A few more thoughts about "growing a thick skin." Of course I'd love to go through the world not worried about what others think. But it's difficult to "thicken one's skin" when you experience micro and macro-aggessions every day of your life, ever since you were an adolescent. And it gets depressing when you realize that likely for the rest of your life, you will continue to experience that.

 

And sometimes you don't want to just ignore it. As a minority (not just racial, this applies to any group that is put down), sometimes you want to speak out, share your experience, and "fight the good fight." And often when you do, you are told "stop playing the race (or insert whatever else here)" or to "move on." Even members of this very thread (and an admin) have told me what to do or dismissed my opinions. Sometimes, you are driven to speak out. And consequently told to shut up. That is very invalidating.

 

Unfortunately, those who discriminate often are the ones landed. In the gay community, it's not surprising that the white elite (the good-looking, fit types that the media and society push as the ideal) are the ones who most frequently and vocally say "no Asians." And sadly, no one blinks and eye when they see or hear that.

 

This lengthy post just scratches the surface of what is means to be an "undersirable" (i.e. Asian, fat, old) in gay society. The saddest part is the internalized racism (I can't tell you how many times another gay Asian has treated me horribly), sizeism and ageism out there in the gay community.

 

If there's one thing I agree with above, it's that our community discriminates to a fault.

 

Your writing(s) sadden me with the tone of low self-esteem expressed. Even the name you have chosen for yourself "Drained Empty" suggests low self-esteem. One's own race and skin color are not options that can be changed. From my own life experience I can declare bigots are everywhere, but they are not everybody. With respect to Asians, I have known many non-Asian gay men who are absolutely enamored with Asian men. There once was a bar in NYC named "The Web" on East 58th Street that was owned and operated by Asians. There were Asian patrons/dancers/bartenders, and believe me, that bar was packed all the time with non-Asians looking for Asians. If you can, begin to train yourself to stop looking into your detractors but to look past them. You might begin by considering another more positive forum name for yourself.

[bigvalboy]

Long ago one gay bar here had a dress code that women had to wear dresses and drag wasn't allowed. That didn't last long.

 

A few decades ago my best friend owned one of the most popular gay bars in LA. He is gone now, but there was a time when he absolutely hated for woman to come into the bar, even going so far as to telling the bartenders not to serve them. He hated lesbians, drag queens, and transgenders. I'm not sure how or why he developed this disdain and hatred, but we had fierce arguments over his policies and over the politics of it all. Even back then, I was disturbed by the lack of inclusiveness in the gay community. You can't call yourself a community, fly the flag, but then engage in bigotry, and then claim the moral high ground by demanding equal rights. But he was my friend and I loved him dearly, and even he knew that he was from a different time, and that the world was changing. He eventually sold the bar, and sadly died far too young a few years later. Not that this makes it any better, but he was honest about how he felt, he told his truth, even debating lesbians who wanted to be a part of the bar. His honesty allowed for that debate.

 

I still miss him to this day...

Edited October 19, 2018 by bigvalboy

[+ E.T.Bass]

It's a double standard to expect everyone in the community to be perfect.

Remember, it's their shit. Just move on to some more pleasant folks.

[+ Charlie]

It's a double standard to expect everyone in the community to be perfect.

Remember, it's their shit. Just move on to some more pleasant folks.

That may be easy enough when the discrimination is a relatively minor person-to-person relationship and only your self-esteem is affected. It is not so easy when the discrimination directly affects your lifestyle choices, such as your ability to patronize the only gay bar in town.

[Chelo]

So easy to say so easy to jugde, shrug it off, grow a thick skin. Until it happens to you, your family, close friends, lover, partner. What would you do?

Any form of discrimination is bad thing regardless of your gender, race, belief. And never let anyone give a free pass because they will surely do it again and trust me they love to do it over and over again. Don’t give them the satisfaction.

[Sean Y]

Your writing(s) sadden me with the tone of low self-esteem expressed. Even the name you have chosen for yourself "Drained Empty" suggests low self-esteem. One's own race and skin color are not options that can be changed. From my own life experience I can declare bigots are everywhere, but they are not everybody. With respect to Asians, I have known many non-Asian gay men who are absolutely enamored with Asian men. There once was a bar in NYC named "The Web" on East 58th Street that was owned and operated by Asians. There were Asian patrons/dancers/bartenders, and believe me, that bar was packed all the time with non-Asians looking for Asians. If you can, begin to train yourself to stop looking into your detractors but to look past them. You might begin by considering another more positive forum name for yourself.

 

Hi Sync, appreciate your words of encouragements for Drained Empty. Logically, I think self love is a good first step to developing a stronger self esteem and therefore happiness. However, imagine how difficult that is if day in and day out, you’re confronted by a society or community that tells you you’re not good enough, not pretty enough, not worthy of love. Maybe you won’t believe it the first time, ignore it the twentieth or hundred times, but eventually, you may think it’s even true. (That’s why we have high suicide rates for young gays, TGs, etc. and why the cosmetic industry, the diet industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, etc. are billion dollar strong because we are all not good enough)

 

As for the “Web” or such places we call “rice bars”, it’s nice to have a place of “acceptance,” where you’re not a minority. These are similar to the Chinatowns, the Castros in SF or other ghettos that were set up world-wide - initially as havens for the specific “minority” where we can feel safe and proud to be ourselves. But consider whether you would be happy if these are the only places you are accepted or feel safe. It’s the same concept - yes - it’s great to have places where we feel safe to be Asian or gay and be loved for being Asian or gay or black or whatever minority. But wouldn’t it be more wonderful if we can be loved outside of these ghettos.

 

And for those who are not familiar with rice bars, it’s a bit more complicated. You see, when you’re a young Asian boy growing up thinking that you’re not good enough, continuously told you’re not good enough just because you’re Asian, what do you think will happen when you’re in an Asian bar with lots of other Asians. Yup, you think they are Asians and therefore they are also not good enough either. This is what we call internalized racism which leads to externalized racism. Unfortunately, it’s against others like yourself and your kind. So, no, it’s not as easy as oh, ignore it and it’ll go away - ummm, there’s really only a few ways to walk away from yourself, one of which is permanently.

 

Now, let’s talk about the non-Asians at these rice bars - they come with a very specific attitude - easy picking because these Asian boys are desperate for a white boy so you can treat them like shit and they’ll be happy. At these bars, the non-Asians tend to be at least 20-30 years older than the Asian boys and about 50-80 pounds heavier. You’ve seen them about - it’s a different type of racism.

 

When I was 20, I was invited to a Pacific Friends party in SF (an organization to introduce white guys to Asian boys, and I played the little Asian boy in a room full of much older white men). I was grabbed without permission, pawed and expected to giggle like the geisha boy. It’s a very different power dynamic - older colonialists and the little native. So, should I feel loved because these older white men want to possess me? It’s an interesting dilemma - am I beautiful because I am exotic and smooth and slim and so quiet (only because I was freaking out!!!!)? And if I am beautiful, why am I only beautiful to these guys who expect me to play the bottom, to nod and smile and be meek but not to the regular young guys at the clubs like End-Up or the Mix etc.? Bars like the N’Touch and the Rice Paddy and probably the Web are full of guys with similar attitudes. So racism is not just an against... it’s also an applied assumption/stereotype. I am Asian so therefore I am expected to play the “girl” or passive role (nothing wrong with being the receiver but... not doing just because i’m Asian or it’s expected), the quiet submissive Asian, the young boy to the older man, etc. etc. (now, if we’re playing sex fantasy role play, sure, i’ll be happy to don my rice paddy hat and let some strapping white boy come dominate me.)

 

(But unfortunately or maybe fortunately in real life, I’m more buff now than skinny, have always been loud and bossy, and opinionated so not really submissive. And in my younger days, was too proud to be a boy toy but am open to the option if you have lots of sugar has haaaa...)

 

Things have changed a lot - Asians are no longer just relegated to rice bars and we can now date boys our own age and our body types. If you visit boyculture or queerty or any other gay sites, you’ll see gay Asians with hot bodies next to boys of other races. But as much as the community has advanced, you still hear a lot of discriminations and also defense of it “well, it’s a sexual attraction” so that’s OK. Let me put it another way... if you put “no Asian, no fat, no femme” you’re actually are being racist, fat phobic and anti-femme (whatever that word is). It’s not a preference - it’s a discrimination. You see, you’re not attracted to all whites, all non-fat or none-femme hits - because amongst those, some have long hair, some with no hair, some with long faces and some with missing teeth, etc. And you didn’t list those preferences either: like no long hair, no missing teeth, etc. etc. There are thousands of parameters to which you judge someone and you didn’t list them. You list their race so that makes you a racist. You list their body weight, so your fat phobic, etc. You could easily just judge the Asian as with any white guy who’s not fat or femme and find the Asian either attractive or not. But the fact that he’s automatically out of the running because he’s Asian makes it racist. Also, there’s a difference between saying I am attracted to something or I prefer something - that’s a preference - like I have a thing for blue eyes and long long lashes. But specifically stating that you dislike something, that the ism.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Sean Y

[+ sync]

Hi Sync, appreciate your words of encouragements for Drained Empty. Logically, I think self love is a good first step to developing a stronger self esteem and therefore happiness. However, imagine how difficult that is if day in and day out, you’re confronted by a society or community that tells you you’re not good enough, not pretty enough, not worthy of love. Maybe you won’t believe it the first time, ignore it the twentieth or hundred times, but eventually, you may think it’s even true. (That’s why we have high suicide rates for young gays, TGs, etc. and why the cosmetic industry, the diet industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, etc. are billion dollar strong because we are all not good enough)

 

Hello Sean Y,

Every downside that you have mentioned unfortunately comes with the territory.

However, imagine how difficult that is if day in and day out, you’re confronted by a society or community that tells you you’re not good enough, not pretty enough, not worthy of love. Maybe you won’t believe it the first time, ignore it the twentieth or hundred times, but eventually, you may think it’s even true. (That’s why we have high suicide rates for young gays, TGs, etc. and why the cosmetic industry, the diet industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, etc. are billion dollar strong because we are all not good enough)

All of these hurtful things plague every minority. The upside is they are subject to being accepted and believed. It must be understood that racist and cosmetic attacks are intended for only one thing, to inflict hurt and insecurity. I'll be the first to agree with you, from my own life experience, it takes some time and determination to become unaffected by their poison. But, once you liberate yourself from being intimidated by the ignorance of others, you have a new appreciation for living.

As for the “Web” or such places we call “rice bars”, it’s nice to have a place of “acceptance,” where you’re not a minority. These are similar to the Chinatowns, the Castros in SF or other ghettos that were set up world-wide - initially as havens for the specific “minority” where we can feel safe and proud to be ourselves. But consider whether you would be happy if these are the only places you are accepted or feel safe. It’s the same concept - yes - it’s great to have places where we feel safe to be Asian or gay and be loved for being Asian or gay or black or whatever minority. But wouldn’t it be more wonderful if we can be loved outside of these ghettos.

It would, indeed, be more wonderful if we were loved everywhere, but human nature is what it is. My time going to bars was some time ago when going into a gar bar meant being with others of a kind. The environment was very different from today. We bonded across age, race, and economic lines because we were just delighted to know that there were others like us. As time passed and the race-specific bars came into being, it gave us the opportunity to hang with our own and let down our hair. They were never structured to freeze-out other races. That was the "Web" I knew. Today it is very different. All of society's ills have migrated into the gay community.

Now, let’s talk about the non-Asians at these rice bars - they come with a very specific attitude - easy picking because these Asian boys are desperate for a white boy so you can treat them like shit and they’ll be happy. At these bars, the non-Asians tend to be at least 20-30 years older than the Asian boys and about 50-80 pounds heavier. You’ve seen them about - it’s a different type of racism.

I understand how that could very easily be the case, but I can tell you that was not the case at the Web. Every Asian that I encountered at the Web was very grounded, intelligent, self-confident, cordial, respectful, and expected the same. I never saw or heard of any Asian being treated disrespectfully at the Web. A part of that may have been due to the management, which brooked no such behavior, regardless of race.

When I was 20, I was invited to a Pacific Friends party in SF (an organization to introduce white guys to Asian boys, and I played the little Asian boy in a room full of much older white men). I was grabbed without permission, pawed and expected to giggle like the geisha boy. It’s a very different power dynamic - older colonialists and the little native. So, should I feel loved because these older white men want to possess me? It’s an interesting dilemma - am I beautiful because I am exotic and smooth and slim and so quiet (only because I was freaking out!!!!)? And if I am beautiful, why am I only beautiful to these guys who expect me to play the bottom, to nod and smile and be meek but not to the regular young guys at the clubs like End-Up or the Mix etc.?

I extend my condolences to you for having had that experience. An organization whose sole purpose is to introduce white guys to Asian boys is displaying a huge red flag that would probably not be obvious to the 20-year old you were at the time.

(But unfortunately or maybe fortunately in real life, I’m more buff now than skinny, have always been loud and bossy, and opinionated so not really submissive. And in my younger days, was too proud to be a boy toy but am open to the option if you have lots of sugar has haaaa...)

Apparently, you have weathered the storm. Perhaps Drained Empty will be able to glean some inspiration from you. I hope so.

[Sean Y]

I extend my condolences to you for having had that experience. An organization whose sole purpose is to introduce white guys to Asian boys is displaying a huge red flag that would probably not be obvious to the 20-year old you were at the time.

Thanks - no condolences needed but appreciate the gesture and having you as an ally.

 

I mentioned that specific experience to illustrate that racism isn’t just about not being desired (as in no Asian need applied) but also about being desired for the “wrong” reason (presumed stereotypes). The desire is not about who I am as a person, but purely because of my skin color (and all that it represents). And like I said, I was conflicted - yeah, I’m finally a hot one, but hmmm, is it really about ME being hot or is it about what they think I represent. And should it matter? (Probably not if it’s a one night stand, definitely yes, if I want long term but i’m completely interchangable - as in any Asian will do. Seriously there are like billions of us applying for 1 position and we all look alike. That’s kinda twilight zoney.

 

Apparently, you have weathered the storm. Perhaps Drained Empty will be able to glean some inspiration from you. I hope so.

Yes, have weathered the storm and have the scare tissues to show for it, but wouldn’t it be better if we didn’t have to force others to suffer these same consequences?

 

And in response to the original post, is there discrimination within our community? Yes - just because we’re a minority does not make us immune to these afflictions. Racism exists in America. It exists in our community. It exists in minority communities (yup, even amongst Asians). And those who say they don’t see color, they are either in denial or are color blind because ummm, if you show me pieces of papers of different colors, I (and probably most 4 year olds) can pick out which is white, black, yellow and brown. Denying that color or race even exist does not make it go away. Just acknowledge and understand and own your potential subconscious bias and be conscientious when making your decisions.

 

I’m sure you’ve heard this before: a dad and his son were in a car accident. The dad died and the son was rushed to the ER. The ER doctor looked at the patient and said, sorry, I can’t operate on him - he’s my son. So who is the doctor? Step dad? Boy was adopted and the surgeon is the true biological dad? Gay dad? Our subconscious biases affect our responses. We did this in class and I was so sure it was a gay dad. Over half of the room didn’t even think about gay dad - seriously making up stories about switching babies at birth or mom had affairs so ER doctor was really the biological dad and other far fetched soap instead of a gay dad. So who is the ER Doctor? She’s the patient’s mom.

 

As a gay man with three my best friends from college being female doctors/surgeons, I was ashame to admit I didn’t even consider she was the patient’s MOM. Even the women didn’t consider option - and many of them admit to having female physicaians. Shocking to admit we’re a bit “sexist.”

 

The importance tho is what we do with this - e.g., acknowledge it and next time don’t automatically assume that the surgeon is male. And when next someone claim they are not racist, because it’s just a sexual preference, challenge their assumptions. We need allies now more than ever and if you don’t see racism or homophobia or gender discrimination, then we can’t defend ourselves and our community/communities from horrible attacks from the likes of skin heads and Trump cronies.

[+ sync]

Yes, have weathered the storm and have the scare tissues to show for it, but wouldn’t it be better if we didn’t have to force others to suffer these same consequences?

 

Yes, it certainly would be better, but I'm thinking the human race is still millennia away from purging the "isms." For the present, it's stand our ground or give up. For those who are coming up behind us, I would say the most useful thing would be for us to let them know what's coming their way and try to prepare them mentally and emotionally. Sadly, the current U.S. administration continues to entice every conceivable element of intolerance and hatred from under their rocks. If I'm coming off as bitter old man, it's only because I'm a bitter old man.

[marylander1940]

Hi Sync, appreciate your words of encouragements for Drained Empty. Logically, I think self love is a good first step to developing a stronger self esteem and therefore happiness. However, imagine how difficult that is if day in and day out, you’re confronted by a society or community that tells you you’re not good enough, not pretty enough, not worthy of love. Maybe you won’t believe it the first time, ignore it the twentieth or hundred times, but eventually, you may think it’s even true. (That’s why we have high suicide rates for young gays, TGs, etc. and why the cosmetic industry, the diet industry, the cosmetic surgery industry, etc. are billion dollar strong because we are all not good enough)

 

As for the “Web” or such places we call “rice bars”, it’s nice to have a place of “acceptance,” where you’re not a minority. These are similar to the Chinatowns, the Castros in SF or other ghettos that were set up world-wide - initially as havens for the specific “minority” where we can feel safe and proud to be ourselves. But consider whether you would be happy if these are the only places you are accepted or feel safe. It’s the same concept - yes - it’s great to have places where we feel safe to be Asian or gay and be loved for being Asian or gay or black or whatever minority. But wouldn’t it be more wonderful if we can be loved outside of these ghettos.

 

And for those who are not familiar with rice bars, it’s a bit more complicated. You see, when you’re a young Asian boy growing up thinking that you’re not good enough, continuously told you’re not good enough just because you’re Asian, what do you think will happen when you’re in an Asian bar with lots of other Asians. Yup, you think they are Asians and therefore they are also not good enough either. This is what we call internalized racism which leads to externalized racism. Unfortunately, it’s against others like yourself and your kind. So, no, it’s not as easy as oh, ignore it and it’ll go away - ummm, there’s really only a few ways to walk away from yourself, one of which is permanently.

 

Now, let’s talk about the non-Asians at these rice bars - they come with a very specific attitude - easy picking because these Asian boys are desperate for a white boy so you can treat them like shit and they’ll be happy. At these bars, the non-Asians tend to be at least 20-30 years older than the Asian boys and about 50-80 pounds heavier. You’ve seen them about - it’s a different type of racism.

 

When I was 20, I was invited to a Pacific Friends party in SF (an organization to introduce white guys to Asian boys, and I played the little Asian boy in a room full of much older white men). I was grabbed without permission, pawed and expected to giggle like the geisha boy. It’s a very different power dynamic - older colonialists and the little native. So, should I feel loved because these older white men want to possess me? It’s an interesting dilemma - am I beautiful because I am exotic and smooth and slim and so quiet (only because I was freaking out!!!!)? And if I am beautiful, why am I only beautiful to these guys who expect me to play the bottom, to nod and smile and be meek but not to the regular young guys at the clubs like End-Up or the Mix etc.? Bars like the N’Touch and the Rice Paddy and probably the Web are full of guys with similar attitudes. So racism is not just an against... it’s also an applied assumption/stereotype. I am Asian so therefore I am expected to play the “girl” or passive role (nothing wrong with being the receiver but... not doing just because i’m Asian or it’s expected), the quiet submissive Asian, the young boy to the older man, etc. etc. (now, if we’re playing sex fantasy role play, sure, i’ll be happy to don my rice paddy hat and let some strapping white boy come dominate me.)

 

(But unfortunately or maybe fortunately in real life, I’m more buff now than skinny, have always been loud and bossy, and opinionated so not really submissive. And in my younger days, was too proud to be a boy toy but am open to the option if you have lots of sugar has haaaa...)

 

Things have changed a lot - Asians are no longer just relegated to rice bars and we can now date boys our own age and our body types. If you visit boyculture or queerty or any other gay sites, you’ll see gay Asians with hot bodies next to boys of other races. But as much as the community has advanced, you still hear a lot of discriminations and also defense of it “well, it’s a sexual attraction” so that’s OK. Let me put it another way... if you put “no Asian, no fat, no femme” you’re actually are being racist, fat phobic and anti-femme (whatever that word is). It’s not a preference - it’s a discrimination. You see, you’re not attracted to all whites, all non-fat or none-femme hits - because amongst those, some have long hair, some with no hair, some with long faces and some with missing teeth, etc. And you didn’t list those preferences either: like no long hair, no missing teeth, etc. etc. There are thousands of parameters to which you judge someone and you didn’t list them. You list their race so that makes you a racist. You list their body weight, so your fat phobic, etc. You could easily just judge the Asian as with any white guy who’s not fat or femme and find the Asian either attractive or not. But the fact that he’s automatically out of the running because he’s Asian makes it racist. Also, there’s a difference between saying I am attracted to something or I prefer something - that’s a preference - like I have a thing for blue eyes and long long lashes. But specifically stating that you dislike something, that the ism.

 

My jaw dropped while reading all of this!

 

Thank you for posting!