Descrimination within the LGBT Community

[boiledeggz]

Some of the points made here, while true to a degree, need to be given more context. First off, not all Asian guys are burdened in the same way in terms of self-loathing. There are a subset of Asian guys who struggle tremendously with internalized self-hatred. And in my opinion those are the ones who are only interested in White / Non-Asian men. These Asian guys who only prefer men of races other then their own tend to have severe issues involving self-esteem because they seek a kind of validation of their own viability and attractiveness through White men. To be clear, I'm 100% for equal opportunity dating / sex. It's the act of excluding one's own race that really disturbs me.

 

THEN we get to another group of Asian-American guys who actively seek out and date OTHER ASIANS. These guys tend to be confident in their attractiveness and place in the gay dating world. They do not pine away waiting for White / Non-Asian men to validate their existence or desirability. In fact, I would say that the majority of under 30 Asian guy prefer to date exclusively other Asians. They are smart and savvy and will not allow society to dictate how they feel about themselves. It's the ones who exclude their own race that wrestle the hardest with feelings of inferiority. Which makes perfect sense, because if they can't find others in their own race sexy, how could they possibly view themselves as sexy / desirable. This deep-seated uneasiness in one's own skin spills over into many aspects of their lives, often resulting in deep depression and loneliness. My Asian friends who are into other young Asian guys have very active dating and sex lives. They're not waiting around for White men to validate them at all.

 

Some of the points made are outdated. Being in my 30s, I have seen things change tremendously in terms of the gay Asian male identity. When I was just coming out, it was just assumed that Asian guys were pining away for some white savior to come and sweep them off their feet. Now the Asian guys are built, sexy, successful, and most want to date other confident, sexy, Asian guys. Things are clearly still not great in terms of discrimination, but they have changed drastically.

[Gvtire]

Sure when my now husband and I adopted for the first time in 88 there was no support. We were constantly getting asked why we wanted to be breeders, don’t we know we’re gay not straight. Fast forward 15 years now it’s the thing to do with in the gay community.

[Sean Y]

Some of the points made here, while true to a degree, need to be given more context. First off, not all Asian guys are burdened in the same way in terms of self-loathing. ...

 

Some of the points made are outdated. Being in my 30s, I have seen things change tremendously in terms of the gay Asian male identity. When I was just coming out, it was just assumed that Asian guys were pining away for some white savior to come and sweep them off their feet. Now the Asian guys are built, sexy, successful, and most want to date other confident, sexy, Asian guys. Things are clearly still not great in terms of discrimination, but they have changed drastically.

 

Boiledeggz, you make some excellent points! My experiences were really from the early 90s when our point of references for standard of beauty was super limited (printed pages and tv/movies) and there really wasn’t much representation. And as mentioned in my first email, we now have hot images of Asians next to men of all races on most sites. We even have uber-hot gay Asian surgeon on Grey’s Anatomy!!!! So yes, we have definitely come a long way! And just as we still continue to fight homophobia, we still fighting the old school perception that Asians are not hot, not sexual, and not marketable/able to carry a mainstream move. Just google how many articles were written about how Hollywood was taken by surprise by how big a hit Crazy Rich Asians was... Same could be said about how surprise people were about how successful Black Panther was or Girl Trip (not because wow, someone other than a white star carried a successful movie!)

 

And thank you for pointing out that there are so many sexy Asian guys who are built, successful, and hot and have no problem dating other Asians or any other races!!! I myself think Asians are mega hot - I mean seriously, look at me. Ha ahaaa. j/k. Maybe.

 

So what are my points: racism still exist, and even with all the hot Asians on Twitter, Grindr, and Jackd etc., there are still people who think there are sexy Asians. We still have tons of Asians who have internalized this hatred and discriminate against themselves. I mean, seriously, we had one of the best president ever and he’s black; and people are calling cops just because someone is black! Hopefully it’ll be less and less - and from your message, we’re on the winning side of progress.

 

And we still need to affirm that it’s not OK to post “no Asians” because it’s racist, even if it’s your sexual preference. And let’s not deny we’re beyond racism, that it doesn’t exist. Telling someone they are not good enough because of their race is hurtful and it exists and we need to help make it stop.

 

And to all my brother Asians, why the F* do you want to sleep with someone who doesn’t want to sleep with you - I mean seriously, how many men are available on Grindr, Jackd and all those other apps who would be hot for you? What are you going to do with a limp dick - why work that hard? Ha haaaa.

 

I want to tell you how much i love love love modernity. I mean seriously, i had to leave Missouri and come all the way to SF and go to Chinatown to see a magazine with a cute Asian (and that magazine was from Hong Kong and in Chinese, which I can’t read). I don’t even need to sneak down to some dark park or sit in some smelly old bathroom for a possible hook-up.

 

Just bloody turn on YouTube and I can stream gay Thai romance, KPop hotties, Chinese etc. not to mention Asian porns or tumblrs. Turn on the app, and i can access all the available boys nearby. I don’t even have to drive or walk any where - seriously sex delivered to my door. Has haaa.

 

So yes, Boiledeggz, you are absolutely right - there shouldn’t be any doubt for any one that hot Asians exist and that there are tons of hot Asians who are interested in other Asians, or in any other combinations other than rice on potatoes.

 

PS. Boiledeggz, love your handle!!!!

[Drained Empty]

Thank you Sync and Sean Y for sharing and validating with what I've been trying to share for months.

 

BoilesEggz, as usual, we differ on opinion. But thank you for sharing yours as well.

 

Ironically, we live in the same area, have been to some of the same bars/clubs/spas what not, and have drastically different experiences.

 

Let me take a step back. Among the major minority groups, there's a phenomenon unique to Asians (as the group with the most recent immigration push). There's what we somewhat jokingly refer to as "Asians" versus "Asian Asians." For semantics (and ease of reading) I'll refer to the former as "Azns." Ironically, Azns use that term to differentiate themselves from Asian Asians. Let me explain:

 

Most Asians in America are either first or second generation. All minorities assimilate to a degree; that's often shaped by where you grow up. Simply, someone who grows up in Chinatown will probably be less assimilated than someone in say, Palo Alto. Or San Gabriel Valley (another Chinese enclave) than Santa Monica.

 

I'm not passing judgment on how assimilated (or as some would say, whitewashed) each person is. Because that's based on their surroundings and society and media. Maybe one's parents intentionally wanted you to "fit in" so they send you to soccer with the white kids instead if Chinese school.

 

The result is the Azns -- Asians who want to (and believe they do) fit in with white culture. In the gay world, the Azns may have exclusively white friends. They work out. They tan. They dress and style their hair a certain way to fit the gay standard of beauty and desirability. That standard of beauty is white men, so it's natural they desire them. They even call themselves Azn because they don't identify as Asian (or more commonly, they leave the race section on their dating/hook-up profiles blank).

 

BoiledEggz would say these are the guys who need validation -- but if all they know is whiteness, you can't blame them for wanting to trying to fit in -- even if it's a square peg in a round hole. Or a yellow person in a white world.

 

Then there are the "Asian Asians," typically among the newest immigrants, who might not be so assimilated. I don't want to generalize but they seem to be the other group BoiledEggz refers to. He calls them smart and savvy. Others might say they're unable or unwilling to assimilate. That's why they date other Asians.

 

I don't know very many people in this second group. Definitely not any of my Asian female friends, who are all fairly well assimilated, and I'd say 85 percent are married to or dating white men. Celeste Ng penned an op-ed eariler this week denouncing Asian men for criticizing these Asian women for dating white men.

 

I don't feel BoiledEggz is criticizing these Asian women's gay male counterparts (Asian men who seek/date white men) but is certainly critical. I have had militant Asian guys attack and threaten bodily harm on me for stating that I liked black and white men. I'll post the screengrabs when I can upload them.

 

To summarize, gay Asians truly are in a terrible predicament. Many go after guys who aren't into them, and their desperation only feeds into that. If one white guy likes them, it might be because of fetishism. Some -- the Azns -- go to great lengths to fit in, changing their looks (hair/eye color), working out to become hot, in hopes of being the "exception" white men desire.

 

And whether or not they succeed, many whites will always look see them for what they are -- not white -- so there's this internal self-loathing that is created. They bemoan the fact they can never fit in (I'll admit I suffer from this -- not because I want to be white -- but because I want to fit in).

 

On top of that, Asians will hate on each other -- either because they see each other as the competition, or they resent their Asian brothers for being too deferential to whites.

 

That's my experience at least. Btw, I have lived in Weho and SF and I would say these Asian couples BoiledEggz boasts about are the rare exception. I do, however get regular stink eye from other Asians when I go out because the reasons above.

 

Basically, it's a lose-lose for us all.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Drained Empty

[+ quoththeraven]

And here I am, happy to attend a BTS concert (last year, not this year), because it's the largest group of Asian-Americans I've been around (though probably not a majority of the crowd). But I'm a hapa cis woman who can pass for white depending on how observant someone is, not a gay man. I haven't experienced the issues many Asian-American women run into of being assumed to be submissive, demure or hypersexual, either.

 

What I run into a lot are gender norms about how girly/androgynous Asian guys look. Some of it is assumption that having a beautiful face makes you girly and some of it is straight-up femme hatred and dislike.

[Sean Y]

Thank you Sync and Sean Y for sharing and validating with what I've been trying to share for months.

 

BoilesEggz, as usual, we differ on opinion. But thank you for sharing yours as well.

 

Ironically, we live in the same area, have been to some of the same bars/clubs/spas what not, and have drastically different experiences.

 

Let me take a step back. Among the major minority groups, there's a phenomenon unique to Asians (as the group with the most recent immigration push). There's what we somewhat jokingly refer to as "Asians" versus "Asian Asians." For semantics (and ease of reading) I'll refer to the former as "Azns." Ironically, Azns use that term to differentiate themselves from Asian Asians. Let me explain:

 

Most Asians in America are either first or second generation. All minorities assimilate to a degree; that's often shaped by where you grow up. Simply, someone who grows up in Chinatown will probably be less assimilated than someone in say, Palo Alto. Or San Gabriel Valley (another Chinese enclave) than Santa Monica.

 

I'm not passing judgment on how assimilated (or as some would say, whitewashed) each person is. Because that's based on their surroundings and society and media. Maybe one's parents intentionally wanted you to "fit in" so they send you to soccer with the white kids instead if Chinese school.

 

The result is the Azns -- Asians who want to (and believe they do) fit in with white culture. In the gay world, the Azns may have exclusively white friends. They work out. They tan. They dress and style their hair a certain way to fit the gay standard of beauty and desirability. That standard of beauty is white men, so it's natural they desire them. They even call themselves Azn because they don't identify as Asian (or more commonly, they leave the race section on their dating/hook-up profiles blank).

 

BoiledEggz would say these are the guys who need validation -- but if all they know is whiteness, you can't blame them for wanting to trying to fit in -- even if it's a square peg in a round hole. Or a yellow person in a white world.

 

Then there are the "Asian Asians," typically among the newest immigrants, who might not be so assimilated. I don't want to generalize but they seem to be the other group BoiledEggz refers to. He calls them smart and savvy. Others might say they're unable or unwilling to assimilate. That's why they date other Asians.

 

I don't know very many people in this second group. Definitely not any of my Asian female friends, who are all fairly well assimilated, and I'd say 85 percent are married to or dating white men. Celeste Ng penned an op-ed eariler this week denouncing Asian men for criticizing these Asian women for dating white men.

 

I don't feel BoiledEggz is criticizing these Asian women's gay male counterparts (Asian men who seek/date white men) but is certainly critical. I have had militant Asian guys attack and threaten bodily harm on me for stating that I liked black and white men. I'll post the screengrabs when I can upload them.

 

To summarize, gay Asians truly are in a terrible predicament. Many go after guys who aren't into them, and their desperation only feeds into that. If one white guy likes them, it might be because of fetishism. Some -- the Azns -- go to great lengths to fit in, changing their looks (hair/eye color), working out to become hot, in hopes of being the "exception" white men desire.

 

And whether or not they succeed, many whites will always look see them for what they are -- not white -- so there's this internal self-loathing that is created. They bemoan the fact they can never fit in (I'll admit I suffer from this -- not because I want to be white -- but because I want to fit in).

 

On top of that, Asians will hate on each other -- either because they see each other as the competition, or they resent their Asian brothers for being too deferential to whites.

 

That's my experience at least. Btw, I have lived in Weho and SF and I would say these Asian couples BoiledEggz boasts about are the rare exception. I do, however get regular stink eye from other Asians when I go out because the reasons above.

 

Basically, it's a lose-lose for us all.

Hmmmm, I’m first gen, foreign born Asian, but grew up in the Midwest. I think I’m pretty Americanized (I mean i speak English better than I do any other languages and i probably speak English better than some of my white friends, ha ahaaa - yeah, I was the editor for our yearbook and literary review mag.)

 

That said, I don’t want to be white - in HS, all my friends were white and i was the only asian in my class (it is the mid-west). TBH, I’m not sure I want to “fit in” with whites only - i didn’t bleach my hair or lighten my skin or change my eye colors. I love my Asianess - i love that I have to shave only once a month (my face, not my butt hole, ha ahaaa). Now in SF, I love my multi-culti friends - they have the best food and best music EVER!!! So no, don’t wanna be white, don’t have interested in being white and don’t want to just hang out with whites. They are welcomed to hang out with me if they want but hey, we’ll be listening to R&B or hip hop, we’ll have spicy curries and egg rolls, sushi’s and chicken feet, and ummm, they are expected to dance (and I mean hip movements and not just shuffling feet) and sing karaoke.

 

Sorry I don’t agree nor accept that the standard of beauty is just white. Buffness is not owned by whites. And being tanned is actually being less “white” .

 

I think standard of beauty is changing - hopefully the gay community is adapting. Castro clones are just one type and so are the gym bunnies with with chicken size chest and skinny legs. I’m fond of the lumberjacks and the panda bears.

 

And I don’t understand the stupidity of Asians being each other’s competitions - seriously are we setting each other up as completely interchangeable so the only real importance is our asianess? Why are other Asians the only competitors and not the white guy over there or the hot Latinos. there’s no limited resources of gay men to date.

 

Maybe because I’m older now that I’m no longer a threat. Or maybe it’s because I have no problem showing them love: I will tell an Asian he’s hot! I have no problem telling the white dude that his Asian guy is hot! And we’ll both laughed and say, damn!!! And I’ll definitely tell Asian couples that they are so cute together!!!!

[bigvalboy]

This has been one of the most interesting and informative threads in a long time. Thanks to @quoththeraven @Sean Y @boiledeggz @sync and @Chelo, for posting your personal stories of struggle and self identity. All the posts were a fascinating and articulate.

 

Edited to remove an objectionable poster...Who knew.

Edited October 23, 2018 by bigvalboy

[boiledeggz]

Sean, I agree with your points. By no means do I think we are living in a post-racial society. Trump coming into power is a clear indication of how tenuous the issue of race truly is in America. In less than a decade, the US made a hard "correction" in the opposite direction. Discrimination is still rampant, it's just more hidden because no one wants to be filmed and end up on the evening news. And YES... I so agree with your comment that hotness is not owned by any one ethnic group. If you went to any of the circuit parties in Asia, especially Bangkok during Songkran, you'd just be overwhelmed by all the impossibly gorgeous Asian guys on display.

 

Drained, when I refer to the "smart and savvy" Asian guys who date other Asian guys, I'm referring to US born, thoroughly American guys. I do not agree with your interpretation that this group of guys is mostly foreign born. Upbringing plays a big part, but I feel there is something much greater at play.

 

But Drained, you brought up a good point......How can two people in similar environments end up with such divergent views? I think it boils down to the mindset of the individual. Are you an individualist who rejects the false, racist narratives that society forces on you? Or are you a conformist who needs the validation of the "in" group to have a sense of self? The same thing plays out with many gay men. As gay men, we've all dealt with persecution and alienation at some point in our lives. But why do some gay men rise above it and embrace their identity, while another subset of gay men live tortured, closeted lives?

 

I don't disagree with your assessment of the realities of being gay and Asian-American. I just find it hard to accept your reaction to it. It's like how you described your dismay at Asian guys who act desperate. For me, I just can't reconcile in my mind the idea that I should apologize for being Asian.

 

Quoththeraven, you make a really good point. When you really drill down to the root cause of homophobia it's really about society's deep-seated misogyny - the hatred of all things considered feminine or "weak". It's the reason why there's nothing worse for a straight man than to be called a "sissy". The same reason why GAY men reject feminine gay guys, and put down "bottoms".

Edited October 21, 2018 by boiledeggz

[Walker1]

At my most active gay life phase, I was very fat . I was always feminine , so there was that. I adopted a drag queen persona, I say adopted-because that wasn't me-just a character I played like a court jester. Surprisingly I didn't have trouble getting laid. Now I did get rejected a lot, was told the most cruel, nasty things, made fun of -but really didn't care.

 

Eventually it was too much and maintaining a façade was just too much effort and cracks developed and like they say once Humpty Dumpty breaks-can't put it back together. But through sheer luck and circumstances became a dad , am closer to family now and a totally different life now. I am open about being gay, but not in the "life". I have learnt to smell the roses and in a nice place. I look back at that phase of my life and it is like a dream. I hire mostly. Straight people have a lot of options to get into relationships wherever you live. gays on the other hand have difficulty outside of gay areas-just not enough of us I guess. Though even when I was in the thick of it, never managed to have a deep meaningful relationship-though when you are presenting a façade, difficult to have a real thing I guess. Which I have been told is the same for really, really hot, sexy studs-many looking at only that aspect of them and not the whole enchilada. I don't know, never been a hot gorgeous stud, but so I have been told.

 

Racism, fatism any number of isms exist . I think it is mistake to think only one side is open minded, tolerant etc-that cuts down on self reflection and that is not good. Some of the most vile, nasty things said to me were from other gays. To be honest , in that phase I said some vile, nasty things too-so touche. I certainly could be vicious and cut deep to the bone. Life, you learn and live and like they say if it does not kill you, it makes you stronger.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Walker1

[Drained Empty]

I think most minorities -- especially first generation ones -- try hard to "fit in" for several reasons.

 

The first is obvious. You become part of a the prevailing culture that is different than yours. You speak English instead of Japanese. You bring sandwiches to school instead of rice.

 

You try to minimize your "otherness" to "pass." For many gay men, especially those 30+, that meant been pretending to date girls. Some even acted homophobic, using slurs, threats or even violence. Why? They did so out of fear. They didn't want to be the "other." Of course, those attitudes have changed. Kids are coming out in school. People are openly gay and proud. But there still are many who are not, and you can't fault them for not being ready, able, or comfortable to do so.

 

For minorities there may be similar struggles. And if you're gay and a minority, it's doubly difficult.

 

Whiteness, beautiful whiteness, is the prevailing culture for gay men. It pervades our media, our advertising, our neighborhoods (hell, even our Korean spas are now predominantly white). Perhaps it is "false and racist" as BoiledEggz suggests, but we cannot deny how pervasive and dominant it is.

 

So most try to assimilate and fit into that. The main reason why it's so pervasive is there aren't many alternatives. Hence if you go to boystown in SF, LA, Vancouver, Sydney, etc. you will see that beautiful whiteness and everyone chasing it -- white, black, brown, yellow.

 

BoiledEggz brings up Thai circuit parties. I'm sure there are gorgeous Asian guys there. In a sea of other Asians guys. But that's the prevailing culture there. We don't live there.

 

I don't even live in Weho but I try to fit in. Not because I'm seeking attention from a white guy (and let's be honest -- despite what you and Sean have written, attitudes are not changing and Asians are still on the bottom when it comes to desirability). I just want to "pass."

 

That's why it really bothers me when guys get up and leave when I enter the steamroom. That's why it bothers me when I get a dirty look when I enter a bar. I just want to "pass" but I'm immediately seen as "other."

 

It's also why nearly all the "hot" Asian guys on Grindr don't list their ethnicity or lie and say that they're mixed (seriously, it's a thing. Turn on your Grindr and see). Or they just post a body pic. Because they know Asians are filtered out. They just want to "pass."

 

Each person does what they need to do to feel valued, or at the very least, "pass." There are the Azns who pump and preen and go out with their white buds to the Abbey or wherever.

 

Then there's the guys who don't give a fuck -- often because they know they'll never be accepted -- and give the rest a bad reputation.

 

It's the pushy, out of shape Asian guy who will leer and try to grab a hot white guy at the spa. The weirdo who tries to gyrate on the hot white guy on the the dance floor. We all know the type. It just takes one, but his desperation ruins it for the rest of us.

 

As Asians, we're already discriminated against, and these guys make it worse. They widen that gap between white people and Asians because now white guys can legitimately hate us and say "ew, Asians" or stereotype us further as desperate, pushy, etc.

 

It just makes it that much harder to "pass."

 

When I was a kid and on the rare occasion I'd have a white classmate over, I'd say "sorry if my house smells Asian." I didn't want to upset the prevailing culture's sensibilities. So I do the same now. If I enter a room and all the white guys leave, I feel I have upset the prevailing culture's sensibilities. Even though a home's scent or the act of entering a room isn't offensive, you feel that you have offended. And I was raised when you offend someone, you apologize.

 

Even if you've done nothing wrong.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Drained Empty

[+ quoththeraven]

When you really drill down to the root cause of homophobia it's really about society's deep-seated misogyny - the hatred of all things considered feminine or "weak". It's the reason why there's nothing worse for a straight man than to be called a "sissy". The same reason why GAY men reject feminine gay guys, and put down "bottoms".

Yes! I don't usually put it that starkly because it can come off as biased coming from a cis woman like me, but along with racial preferences, preferences for "real men" have internalized misogyny and gender standards embedded in them. It's another way of living by the rules of anti-gay culture.

 

It's not that there's something wrong with liking buffed up people, but there's something wrong when it's the only standard by which anyone is measured. Moreover, there are also men who are beautiful or femme looking with six packs and wide shoulders. How do they get classified?

 

Case in point: Ren of k-pop group Nu'est. Of course now I can't find a clip of his abs, but here's one of him explaining how he was "caught" by one of his band members dancing in his room wearing only a pair of sunglasses.

I don't think he looks or dances particularly girly or manly; he seems more gender neutral to me than anything. It's when he has a less traditional hairstyle or length that he is more easily mistaken for a woman. Interestingly, Nu'est challenges gender norms from the other direction too; bandmate Baekho is beefier than is the norm in k-pop.

(This is their debut song, which is about school bullying. Do not let anyone tell you k-pop consists of mindless bubble gum music.)

 

More about Nu'est, including Ren and gender norms and Baekho and body standards:

 

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/k-town/7998473/why-nuest-was-always-worth-your-attention

[+ quoththeraven]

When I was a kid and on the rare occasion I'd have a white classmate over, I'd say "sorry if my house smells Asian." I didn't want to upset the prevailing culture's sensibilities. So I do the same now. If I enter a room and all the white guys leave, I feel I have upset the prevailing culture's sensibilities. Even though a home's scent or the act of entering a room isn't offensive, you feel that you have offended. And I was raised when you offend someone, you apologize.

 

Even if you've done nothing wrong.

I know it's hard to counter your cultural upbringing, but just as people need to counter their unconscious systemic racism, they also need to shed actively harmful beliefs like apologizing for existing while Asian. They're the ones in the wrong, not you.

[+ sync]

Case in point: Ren of k-pop group Nu'est. Of course now I can't find a clip of his abs,

 

You know I just had to go try to find one. Thanks for the inspiration.

[+ quoththeraven]

You know I just had to go try to find one. Thanks for the inspiration.

Yes! I can't copy images from my tablet, so thank you for that.

 

So what do people make of that? He has defined abs, broad shoulders, no hips and a pretty face, which may just amount to nice skin and defined cheekbones. Does the pretty face cancel everything else out, and if so, why?

[+ quoththeraven]

Parts of this interview with Steven Yuen seem relevant to this discussion.

 

Who says an Asian man is not sexy? They might not be six foot, blond, blue eyed. But we got our shit. We got our own style. Sexy is just a way of being, and a comfort in ourselves.

 

So we're getting to that place. I hope we get to that place and then we can make things more nuanced, scattered, eclectic, different, all across the board.

 

https://www.gq.com/story/steven-yeun-burning-interview/amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

Sadly it seems straight society is ahead of gay society on that score because gay society largely embraces the traditional definition of masculinity whereas straight society - women especially - is reacting against it.

[Walker1]

I just want to "pass" but I'm immediately seen as "other."

One advantage when I was in my adopted "drag queen" phase. I didn't care, I would get in their faces and confront someone. I just didn't care. I don't know where that strength came from, for I was considered very shy and am quiet now. I think we have different aspects of ourselves that we may suppress based on our surroundings and what is culturally acceptable and what gets us ahead or does not lead to bad consequences.

 

I don't know you personally, but perhaps an acceptance of self with all its warts. You look like-again an assumption-your sense of reality is pretty locked in. It isn't, we have choices within the larger context of course. Maybe work with animals or maybe become a drag queen for fun and unlock your fierceness to the world-that way you can go back to being your normal self or learn to expand it. Again just banter-one does not know someone's story in real life, so no offense.

[Drained Empty]

I am an astute observer of life and human behavior -- it's actually part of what I do for a living.

 

Walker 1, I greatly respect the art of drag. At the risk of sounding cliche, one of my good friends is a successful drag queen. He -- and I'm not trying to offend by using that pronoun (as you see from previous posts I'm super sensitive when it comes to offending) -- has a super hot boyfriend. It's just not for me. No judgment there.

 

Likewise, going to a circuit party (whether it be in Palm Springs or Thailand) is not for me, regardless of it's racial make-up. Because honestly I wouldn't "pass" there either -- too many muscled, shirtless party boys. Not for me.

 

For lack of a better word, I'm very str8-acting. My gay friends joke that I don't remotely "ping." Sure, I act (or I should say am) that way I don't want to be gay bashed. But also, it's truly my personality -- masculine, non-flamboyant. Now that doesn't mean I'm toxic or homophobic. But it also doesn't mean I'm a bump on a log when I go out. Or a top lol.

 

I will admit rejection wrecks me. It literally pains me when someone blocks me on a dating app (I never reach out first btw). It upsets me when guys walk out on me in steamroom. I assume it's because of my looks or my race. It usually is, because they won't walk out on a say, older heavy bald white guy.

 

Those who reject have the power. That's why I ask a masseur if they are okay with Asian clients. 98 percent of them are, but I don't want to be rejected. The very first time I hired a provider, I of course checked with him. He said enthusiastically yes, but he kinda gave me "the look" (and after years of interactions you know what "the look" is) so gave him his $300 (with a tip ... I know, it's me not trying to offend, again) and sent him home early. The second (and last time) I saw a provider, he seemed to be into me. Afterwards, I jokingly asked him about his lasting erection and he said he injected Trimix. I took this to me he did not find me attractive, was forced to have an erection and interact with me, and immediately felt very rejected.

 

If a guy (usually multiple) get up and leave from a steamroom or sauna, I will apologize and avoid them (and the rejection) for the rest of the night. Sure it sucks. Sometimes I end up sitting in the bathroom because there's nowhere else to go. Or I just concede a room and leave. And yes, I absolutely can and do keep track and remember for future visits. But I'd rather not go in and get the reputation as a creeper Asian or a guy ruining things for others.

 

I could never be an actor or model. The rejection would drive me to suicide. Again, that doesn't mean I lock myself in the house and work from my basement. I'm very senior and good at what I do, but I made sure of that super early in my career to avoid any professional rejection.

 

Simply put, I don't like rejection and consequently, losing. I believe the way our society is and through observation, Asians are on the losing end versus the white elites. These elites are the tastemakers, the guys who others gravitate to. So of course when they write "No Asians," that power gap is reinforced.

 

BoiledEggz is probably going to jump in here and bemoan the fact that I'm so weak. But I'm not. I fought that fight. I've spent my entire adult life seeing "No Asians," getting walked out on, being told all guys like me are undersirable, weak, ugly. I'm just tired of fighting that fight. As I've written previously, I takes so much energy just to "pass" nowadays anyway because we're already fighting an uphill battle against stereotypes and guys who ruin it for us.

 

To frame it in the greater thread, that is the power of discrimination. Sure, we can call those who discriminate as awful people, but they still hold the power. And when these people are the elites, it just makes the fight so much harder.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Drained Empty

[+ quoththeraven]

I am an astute observer of life and human behavior -- it's actually part of what I do for a living.

 

Walker 1, I greatly respect the art of drag. At the risk of sounding cliche, one of my good friends is a successful drag queen. He -- and I'm not trying to offend by using that pronoun (as you see from previous posts I'm super sensitive when it comes to offending) -- has a super hot boyfriend. It's just not for me. No judgment there.

 

Likewise, going to a circuit party (whether it be in Palm Springs or Thailand) is not for me, regardless of it's racial make-up. Because honestly I wouldn't "pass" there either -- too many muscled, shirtless party boys. Not for me.

 

For lack of a better word, I'm very str8-acting. My gay friends joke that I don't remotely "ping." Sure, I act (or I should say am) that way I don't want to be gay bashed. But also, it's truly my personality -- masculine, non-flamboyant. Now that doesn't mean I'm toxic or homophobic. But it also doesn't mean I'm a bump on a log when I go out. Or a top lol.

 

I will admit rejection wrecks me. It literally pains me when someone blocks me on a dating app (I never reach out first btw). It upsets me when guys walk out on me in steamroom. I assume it's because of my looks or my race. It usually is, because they won't walk out on a say, older heavy bald white guy.

 

Those who reject have the power. That's why I ask a masseur if they are okay with Asian clients. 98 percent of them are, but I don't want to be rejected. The very first time I hired a provider, I of course checked with him. He said enthusiastically yes, but he kinda gave me "the look" (and after years of interactions you know what "the look" is) so gave him his $300 (with a tip ... I know, it's me not trying to offend, again) and sent him home early. The second (and last time) I saw a provider, he seemed to be into me. Afterwards, I jokingly asked him about his lasting erection and he said he injected Trimix. I took this to me he did not find me attractive, was forced to have an erection and interact with me, and immediately felt very rejected.

 

If a guy (usually multiple) get up and leave from a steamroom or sauna, I will apologize and avoid them (and the rejection) for the rest of the night. Sure it sucks. Sometimes I end up sitting in the bathroom because there's nowhere else to go. Or I just concede a room and leave. And yes, I absolutely can and do keep track and remember for future visits. But I'd rather not go in and get the reputation as a creeper Asian or a guy ruining things for others.

 

I could never be an actor or model. The rejection would drive me to suicide. Again, that doesn't mean I lock myself in the house and work from my basement. I'm very senior and good at what I do, but I made sure of that super early in my career to avoid any professional rejection.

 

Simply put, I don't like rejection and consequently, losing. I believe the way our society is and through observation, Asians are on the losing end versus the white elites. These elites are the tastemakers, the guys who others gravitate to. So of course when they write "No Asians," that power gap is reinforced.

 

BoiledEggz is probably going to jump in here and bemoan the fact that I'm so weak. But I'm not. I fought that fight. I've spent my entire adult life seeing "No Asians," getting walked out on, being told all guys like me are undersirable, weak, ugly. I'm just tired of fighting that fight. As I've written previously, I takes so much energy just to "pass" nowadays anyway because we're already fighting an uphill battle against stereotypes and guys who ruin it for us.

 

To frame it in the greater thread, that is the power of discrimination. Sure, we can call those who discriminate as awful people, but they still hold the power. And when these people are the elites, it just makes the fight so much harder.

But you are also helping to give them that power. You don't have to buy into their premises.

 

As usual, point illustrated with BTS videos.

Just live how you want/Your life is yours

Don't try so hard/It's alright to fail

Point your fingers, I couldn't care less

No matter what your reason to blame me is.

 

I do what I do, so mind your own business

You can't stop me loving myself.

 

BTS, and male k-pop groups in general, get called "gay" and "girly" all the time as an insult, sometimes to their faces. But achieving two #1 albums on Billboard this year and being featured on magazine covers (Time, Billboard), as BTS has, make that an irrelevant insult.

 

Living life on your own terms is the best response.

[Drained Empty]

But you are also helping to give them that power. You don't have to buy into their premises.

 

Living life on your own terms is the best response.

 

Wow, you really love this band.

 

Glad you can find positive messaging in their music -- I mean ultimately it's part of their branding.

 

I know they (and K-pop) are hot right now but in a few years they'll probably go the way of Justin Bieber.

 

FWIW, I know BTS have many fangirls like you but most of the guys in Weho would not find any of them remotely attractive. They would definitely fall into "Asian Asians" category rather than Azns.

[+ quoththeraven]

Wow, you really love this band.

 

Glad you can find positive messaging in their music -- I mean ultimately it's part of their branding.

 

I know they (and K-pop) are hot right now but in a few years they'll probably go the way of Justin Bieber.

 

FWIW, I know BTS have many fangirls like you but most of the guys in Weho would not find any of them remotely attractive. They would definitely fall into "Asian Asians" category rather than Azns.

Criticizing their own fans for spending too much time on them and teenagers for badgering their parents to buy pricy clothing to maintain status is a branding strategy? Mocking the former education minister and criticizing the South Korean education system is a branding strategy? Talking about suicide, depression and parental pressure is a branding strategy? (All topics of songs of theirs or of individual member's mixtapes released for free.) Contributing anonymously to a fund for the families of the victims of the Sewol ferry disaster (until some revealed it) and starting an #EndViolence campaign in cooperation with UNICEF, including individual member and company donations and 3% of the proceeds of their most recent album series is a branding strategy?

 

Yes, I do love BTS a lot. Some day they will disband. But it's unlikely to be any sooner than, say, One Direction, whose position they've filled. In the meantime they are showing way more of a social conscience than Western boy bands.

 

As for their appearance, I think you made my point. Who cares what a bunch of white-centric guys in Weho think?

[Drained Empty]

Who cares what a bunch of white-centric guys in Weho think?

 

You're a cis biracial woman who can pass for white and from the East Coast.

 

No offense but you have no idea what it means to be a gay male minority.

 

May I venture to guess that your mom is Asian and your dad is white?

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

This thread is near done

[boiledeggz]

Well Drained you could also just ignore the people who give "the look" and not apologize or acknowledge their blatant disrespect. I just don't see how apologizing to someone who is being a dick to you is "fighting the good fight." In my view, that unjustified deference is AS HARMFUL as the desperation of the trolls who have no self-awareness or social graces. You're feeding into the stereotype. If we're talking about projecting conventional masculinity, doesn't that mean not letting people run roughshod over you? It's just a thought.

[Sean Y]

I think most minorities -- especially first generation ones -- try hard to "fit in" for several reasons. The first is obvious. You become part of a the prevailing culture that is different than yours. You speak English instead of Japanese. You bring sandwiches to school instead of rice. You try to minimize your "otherness" to "pass." For many gay men, especially those 30+, that meant been pretending to date girls. Some even acted homophobic, using slurs, threats or even violence. Why? They did so out of fear. They didn't want to be the "other." Of course, those attitudes have changed. Kids are coming out in school. People are openly gay and proud. But there still are many who are not, and you can't fault them for not being ready, able, or comfortable to do so.

For minorities there may be similar struggles. And if you're gay and a minority, it's doubly difficult.

Whiteness, beautiful whiteness, is the prevailing culture for gay men. It pervades our media, our advertising, our neighborhoods (hell, even our Korean spas are now predominantly white). Perhaps it is "false and racist" as BoiledEggz suggests, but we cannot deny how pervasive and dominant it is.

So most try to assimilate and fit into that. The main reason why it's so pervasive is there aren't many alternatives. Hence if you go to boystown in SF, LA, Vancouver, Sydney, etc. you will see that beautiful whiteness and everyone chasing it -- white, black, brown, yellow.

Even if you've done nothing wrong.

Thanks, Drained... I do hear you and feel your pain. I can understand your frustrations. But I have some problems with your assumptions.

Like I said, I’m a first gen, literally fresh off the boat (boat people refugee) who grew up in the mid-west, went to a predominantly white school, and friends were all white. I don’t think there was any pretending that I was white or trying to be white. We ate asian food at home, i brought homemade Vietnamese sandwiches or Vietnamese sticky rice (soi) for field trips because i hated wonder bread (hate how it sticks to the roof of your mouth) and we brought egg rolls and fried wontons or fried rice to potlucks. (My mom is an awesome cook and trust me, what we brought were super popular with my white friends - and their parents have called me after I graduated to have her make them for their family get togethers.

Yes, I speak better English than Chinese or Vietnamese, but that’s not by choice. I arrived in the US when I was 8 y.o. after spending over a year in a refugee camp. I only had a 2nd grader education in my native language whereas I had many years of private ESL tutoring by a trained English teacher (it helps that I was the only non-English speaking student so I was very lucky). Growing up, there were very few people to speak Chinese/Vietnamese to so English it is. It’s not because I wanted to be white.

 

What’s my point - check your assumptions. I’m sure I’m not the only Asian who doesn’t fit in your brush stroke. I’m assimilated but growing up, I wanted to look like Leslie Cheung, then Aaron Kwon or Jimmy Lim - they were so pretty. In college, I wanted long lashes like my friend Shaista who also has the most beautiful blue eyes - btw, she’s not white - she’s Persian. My current boyfriend is an Asian who’s tall and buff - not because he wants to be white. He grew up in the project in Sacramento so his friends were mostly African Americans. And being poor, their fun time was playing sports - especially pick-up basketball (did I mention he’s a 5’11” gay Asian).

 

You are right that it’s hard being a minority in the US. But remember, we are a minority so yeah, the prevailing marketing materials will be targeting the majority (whites). I can complain about not seeing myself in them or I can do something about it. As mentioned previously, the awesomeness of current technology means we’re no longer bound by mainstream offerings. Some of the best and most popular YouTube stars are Asians. And seriously, we control our twitter feeds and tumblr accounts and postings etc. We can push or create or represent.

 

And yeah, the white models in ads, on tv and in movies are gorgeous and hot, but ummm, they are not hot because they are white. No one said they are hot because they are white - they are selected because that’s the demographics advertisers are targeting. These models are super young, fit, completely proportional and symmetrical and selected for those reasons. They are chosen specific because they are the “elite” meaning if you look around, 99.9% of the people, regardless of whatever race do not look like them. Same can be said of hot Asian models and black, Latino, Indian, etc. and same of the women. I can agree that we don’t normally see diversity in our mainstream advertisement because the ads are mostly targeting the majority (which in this country is still white). But i don’t agree it’s the whiteness that make the models beautiful. And if you think that’s the main reason, that’s racism (external or internalized).

 

I don’t really understand the need to just “pass” - what am i passing? Do you mean being mainstream? Or do you mean white? I will never pass as white nor do i want to. I’m not even sure why I would ever feel the need to. Or do you mean be desired by whites? Is that the litmus test for being beautiful - to score a white guy? Does he have to be gorgeous or any white guy will do?

 

Or is it to be desired period, because not being or feeling desired is not an Asian only state. I know tons of cute single white boys who complain constantly about not finding the right one. And apparently, being white is not the answer either.

 

I’m kinda not cool with blaming the unfit gyrating Asians for our perceived image in the eyes of white men. I mean it’s not the Asianess that made them act that way. And have you seen all the other non-Asians doing the same thing?

 

Racists will find any excuses so they don’t need your help. I mean, we had one of the best president of all time who is brilliant and well loved worldwide, and he’s black. Did that change how racists view blacks? They still call the cops on blacks as if by being black they are responsible for all the crimes. They still blame immigrants for what one Latino did but mentioned nothing about all the others crimes committed by whites.

 

I don’t hold all white people responsible for Hitler, Lenin or even Trump. And I don’t think badly of the gay white community for the likes of Milo Yiannopoulos, Kevin Spacey and Peter Thiel. Because if we do, there are tons of horrible atrocities committed by white Americans against people of color - such as the Tuskegee Syphilis Study (where US injected syphilis into African Americans to see the effect of untreated syphilis in the black community). The US apologized for the atrocities but I don’t see white people taking the blame.

 

I don’t apologize for the actions of some of my fellow Asians - are they embarrassing? Probably but not because they are Asians - it’s because I’m embarrassed to do that in public period, regardless of whatever race. I think they are brave enough to do dance, regardless of other people’s judgements as long as they don’t hurt other people and not sexual predators.

 

And lastly, you can’t assume that the Asians on Grindrs don’t show their faces because they are ashame of their race - maybe they are not out or want their friends to know they are looking for hook-ups. Or maybe race is not an important criteria. Seriously, they can lie about their race all they want, but if it’s physical hook-up, there’s no way the white guy’s going to not know he’s Asian. So please check your assumptions on this - because it makes no sense.

 

OK - forgive me for my rants - you can tell I’m a bit passionate about this.

[+ quoththeraven]

You're a cis biracial woman who can pass for white and from the East Coast.

 

No offense but you have no idea what it means to be a gay male minority.

 

May I venture to guess that your mom is Asian and your dad is white?

Nope. My dad was Korean-American and grew up in Denver, Colorado. (He was either born there or in Wyoming.) His family moved to the NY metro area after World War II because of anti-Asian racism in the West. As a child I did not and could not pass for white and i grew up in a place with no other Asian families until I was in junior high, when another biracial kid moved to town. (His mom was Japanese-American.) By the time I graduated, there were also two Chinese-American brothers at school.) I don't identify as biracial. I identify as Asian-American. And while I am cis, I am not straight.

 

Sorry to prove your assumptions wrong. I suspect some of it is a difference in generations, especially since my family arrived here more than a century ago. But it was amusing (or something) to hear my father claim he had no problem because of his ethnicity with other soldiers in his Army Air Force unit during WWII. I'm sure in the end he had no problems because he outperformed and intimidated them, but I highly doubt it was smooth sailing after the army rethought their initial rejection of him as an enlistee because his parents were from a country occupied by Japan.

Edited October 22, 2018 by quoththeraven