Simon Suraci

On 4/30/2023 at 2:47 AM, Jamie21 said:

it’s about being aware of his reactions to what you do and making sure he’s having as much fun as you are.

Intuition. Good tops have it and use it.
The best tops are ‘givers’, not ‘takers’.

Attitude, consideration, patience, and empathy are all important and it’s difficult to teach those. If you have them, you will go far.

With that said, techniques are still teachable. It’s magic when you know what you’re doing. There should be a Hogwarts for hustlers too.

1 hour ago, DWnyc said:

like one part of the brain goes numb to something 

This is one of many reasons only a select few are cut out to be successful providers. It’s a sacrifice you have to be wiling to make. That’s one of the reasons you pay so much for provider services. Very few clients seem to understand this.

In the middle of all the various threads about prices and value I consider to myself this high cost of being a provider and wonder if anyone else factors this in. Across the board, you’re paying for someone to live their life in a way that requires placing your needs above their own. At least the good ones. Regardless of how attractive or well suited to your preferences they are. Remember that when you hire.

On 4/19/2023 at 8:15 PM, DWnyc said:

“I don’t really date or hookup myself, as this job as kind of put me off all that stuff, maybe for life”

From my perspective, I completely understand this sentiment. Not surprised in the least.

14 hours ago, NyGold said:

disingenuous to act like there is moral outrage

I agree. It’s common and nobody should be scandalized by discussions of erotic and sensual elements. It’s not a big deal to say no, sorry I don’t offer xyz. It’s also ok to request a phone call if the provider is being sensitive to providing information in writing. It’s also ok to list erotic and/or sensual and have different definitions of what those mean and to clarify with the client “I offer abc, but not xyz”.

9 hours ago, Jamie21 said:

I think he’s lonely.

True, this is quite common. I’m not surprised by having lonely clients. It comes with the territory and I have many. It’s the lack of boundaries that catches me off guard and eventually I have to set boundaries for the client if they aren’t picking up on the signals. I try to be generous and cordial ,but there is a limit.

1 hour ago, NyGold said:

Depends how you define it

I was thinking more in terms of extras that you would normally expect to pay more than the massage fee in terms of a different rate or à la carte. @NyGold what about those kinds of freebies?

Time is one way of offering a freebie. I do it at times, when I am able. I’ve touched on this elsewhere, but it’s not uncommon for me to go over on time, by a little bit, schedule permitting, and if the client is ok with going over. I do it when I feel it’s adding value to the client, not just time for time’s sake. In fact, I pride myself on offering 60/90/120 minutes as your minimum time on the table. Not getting dressed or showering or chit chatting or paying. Like, actual table time. I want my clients to value my work, feel that they’re getting all the benefits they want, and that I’m being fair.

For regulars, generous tippers, or people I really like for who they are as a person, I’m much more inclined to go the extra mile. I put in my best effort no matter who the client is, even if none of the above apply. Quality is always there. The extra quantity is the freebie.

Some clients really need a 90 min massage to address their specific problems, but they’re only booking a 60 min. I might do 75 min to show them they actually do need it and I can meet their needs better if they book the appropriate session. Yes, I want to earn more, but more importantly I want to meet the client’s needs, and sometimes that means a longer session and demonstrating that value to them. I don’t do this for clients already booking sessions appropriate for their needs. Some truly only need a 60 min and I don’t see a value to them booking more, so I don’t even go there.

The time component is one of the most valuable things I can offer. I do it as a matter of good business, to show goodwill and give the client more reasons to be loyal, refer me, and write positive reviews.

Sometimes I advertise weekly specials like 30 extra minutes free, mostly to attract new clients, but also bring the others out if the woodwork who haven’t seen me in months.

I don’t ask or expect to be tipped for extra time. If it was never discussed beforehand, I don’t think it’s fair to expect a client to pay more for extra time they didn’t ask for. Most clients don’t pay extra for going over, and that’s fine. I’d rather they be happy and return than pay more but see me only once or less frequently than they otherwise would.

Some clients are very high maintenance, demanding a lot of time from me before I even meet them, or afterwards. For example, one client booked three weeks ahead for a three hour session and texts me every day. No joke, every single day multiple times a day for over a week, to talk about random things, more session details, his fantasies, and his life experiences. Long drawn out conversations. I think I’ve spent at least double his session time already and that’s before we’ve even met. That’s a HUGE freebie, like ungodly generous. I wouldn’t do it at all if he wasn’t booking me for a longer, higher fee session. Honestly, I would rather give him an extra hour for free in person than deal with all the constant random texting and demands for my attention and thoughtful replies. It’s exhausting. I started putting off my responses to deal with more urgent matters for that day and get back later, but being polite obligates me to keep responding, gradually less and less until we’re down to me only “liking” messages that are not direct questions. He finally got the hint and promised to not text anymore until the appointment date. And then he does it anyway the very next day. 🙄 

Time is valuable, both on the table and off. If your masseur is being generous toward you with his time, especially if you’re demanding it in some form, I suggest being generous to him with how you tip. If you’re a low maintenance client (like most), then no, you shouldn’t feel obligated.

Other time freebies I offer are coaching on various topics. About 60% of my clients identify as something other than gay and a fraction of those need some support or information, or have questions about gay stuff. Some of them want direction or intro to gay culture, sex, dating, or other topics. Some need orgasm training, conscious breathwork, or various recommendations. I spend extra time with them offering advice, resources, and other things to meet their needs and curiosities outside of their massage time.

21 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

Trying to jerk me off when I'm not even hard.

I hear this. Clients differ though. Some would be disappointed in the lack of effort. Others have ED, prostate issues, or anxiety, or, like you, just aren’t feeling it. Some clients release without even being hard (not that uncommon). Some clients are very relaxed from the massage and aren’t hard, but get hard with some attention, and want it.

Damned if you do. “Read the room, man”

Damned if you don’t. “I’m disappointed he didn’t even try”

The outliers aren’t usually physical things. Way more often I screen for other red flags. I can deal with someone’s fat rolls. It would take a pretty extreme rare kind of offensive human being to prevent me from seeing them. You can look like Godzilla, I don’t care. I can’t deal with all the other issues we providers talk about on these forums. Won’t launch into all those again here.

Just now, pubic_assistance said:

If a massage session ever develops into a full escort session, my "tip" is to double his massage fee.

 

That’s a good baseline. Something along the lines of $150 for an hour long massage vs simply hiring him at $300 for full service in the first place. Ideally each party agrees to what is happening and rates beforehand, but lacking that, I think this is fair.

We’ve already discussed upselling elsewhere so I won’t get into it. I generally avoid upselling during the session.

On 4/30/2023 at 10:55 AM, BenjaminNicholas said:

However- devil's advocate here- wouldn't you rather an escort say 'no' before the meet, rather than go through with it and have what would likely be a bad experience? 

Solid point. A provider really shouldn’t be in the biz if they can’t see a wide variety of clients, but it’s better to know upfront that the provider is unprofessional and avoid wasting both parties’ time.

3 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

they inform me that their schedule is filling up fast so to book while I can.

Thanks for the input Kyle. This has been consistent with my experience so far. I get a lot more advance bookings this way, plus others filling in the remaining time once I’m there.

I’d like to give the northeast a shot. Medium to smaller metros are on my radar.

3 hours ago, 56harrisond said:

As a client, it's so much easier to drive 2 hours to Toronto to have fun.

Gotcha, thanks @56harrisond for the insight. I figured most of what the market wants can be found in Toronto because it’s the nearest big city, and if I’m not mistaken also the largest metro area in Canada. 

No promises but I’m considering travel to the northeast. I may have to add Toronto to a forthcoming tour including Rochester/Buffalo and other cities in the northeast. 

On 2/21/2023 at 1:21 PM, BuffaloKyle said:

I can't even recommend any local providers or masseurs. I pretty much hire visitors.

Any sense of a demand for providers in your area @BuffaloKyle? I’m surprised at how quickly I book up when I travel to “smaller” cities, like Oklahoma City. Wondering if it may be the case there and if I can make economic sense of planning a trip near you.

52 minutes ago, NyGold said:

people suggesting it that it was a cheaper way to access escorts.

This is so common. It sucks being treated like a discount sex worker. While it may be true that some masseurs are escorts or offer equivalent services, equitable pricing is different for each service. If you’re getting way, way more than massage and not being charged for it, be sure to tip generously.

I have the same approach as @Jamie21

I aim to give my clients a balanced, high quality massage, even with some detours for extra mutual touch. Some clients are particularly handsy, which I don’t mind. Occasionally I have to remind a client that I need to be able to move and that I’m not avoiding their touch, it’s that I can’t reach their whole body or continue the massage when I’m stuck in one position for an extended period of time. There’s only so long I can indulge their groping in one position before the massage quality and/or completeness suffers.

Back up!

Yes, down again today

4 hours ago, APPLE1 said:

I have been offered freebies in the past

How frequently do masseurs initiate/offer you freebies? 

Can we keep to the topic please? And be civil? I know we have tangents on threads, but personal attacks are unnecessary.

I agree we can all do with less complaining posting. When someone (client or provider) is clearly not open to input, advice, or considering other views …..and then becomes hostile, condescending, or disrespectful in the face of disagreement, it’s best to disengage. It’s not worth your time.

It doesn’t need to be this adversarial. Nobody is ‘right’ and there is no ‘winning’. This is a place to learn and exchange ideas, to get better at hiring, better at providing, and to get better as a person too. It’s also entertainment, advice, hot tips, and a host of other community centered interactions. It’s supposed to be helpful, fun, and enjoyable.

Reinforcing your own ideas and defending them to the death doesn’t help anyone, least of all oneself. How many times, for example, will we talk about deposits and die on a hill over it? This behavior alienates others, and it’s boring to boot.

I can’t expect the whole world to agree with my perspectives. I don’t care if people disagree with me, and I don’t feel the need to change minds. I take opinions with a grain of salt and let them inform my perspectives, thinking, and future decision making. I enjoy reading what others have to say.

The OP question makes sense to me. If you’re ultimately wanting to go all the way, seems reasonable to hire an escort. I get the points about hiring a masseur to get all the enjoyable aspects of building up arousal, relaxation, foreplay, and the element of something unexpected and unscripted. All of that is fine and I agree on many points.

Frankly, a good escort should be able to do all of these things well, minus the technical/therapeutic massage bit. Not just drop trow and shove it into you/him. Bonus if your escort has pro massage skills and he can incorporate a great therapeutic massage with some erotic play into the buildup time to full service activities. Still not entirely necessary to have a great escort experience though.

My issue with this question is what the client is paying. Is the client expecting or requesting to pay a massage rate for an escort experience, including full service? That’s unreasonable.

Here is another unreasonable scenario: The client wants a full hour or longer of skilled massage (therapeutic and/or erotic) AND wants an extra hour (or portion thereof) ON TOP OF THAT to do a full service escort session, BUT only wants to pay the rate of one single hour of escort service. In my view, that’s asking the provider to give a skilled massage for free. Purchase one hour of escort service at full price and get one hour of skilled massage for free!  How typical is this in your experiences? Do you think it’s fair?

I find chatting with my peers that they are providing a mix of *some* level of escort service with their massage rate, and their rate is clearly way more than a reasonable massage rate, but not quite high enough to be on par with a typical escort rate. I wonder: is this overcharging for massage or undercharging for escort service?

It gets pretty muddy to me, which is why I like to think of it as two distinct services with different rates and expectations for each. You can combined them in the same session, of course, but you break it out for pricing purposes. You get A, B, and C for the massage rate over a given time. You get X, Y, and Z for the escort rate over that time. 

Here’s a scenario I find reasonable: client hires one hour of escort service at the provider’s escort rate and requests some massage time WITHIN that hour. The massage portion ends up being 15-30 mins and includes foreplay, erotic buildup, etc, and you spend the remainder of the hour on full service activities.

Is this crazy of me to think that massage has its own value, and that escort service has its own (higher) value and that the client should pay for each, respectively? Or is the client expectation that escorts should provide free pro massage services in addition to their full service time? Do you guys typically receive free massages when you hire an escort? Or free escort service when you hire massage? What are your experiences and what are your expectations?

Keep in mind total time spent on each activity, and whether it’s actually skilled massage or just an escort playing at massage to indulge you. Do you think you should be paying more? If so, in which scenarios? If not, in which scenarios?

Would you be willing to pay time and rate for each service, or is this a reach on the part of the provider? Example: 60 mins of pro massage (pay their massage rate) + 60 mins of full service escort activities (pay their escort rate).

Genuinely curious because this comes up a lot. I know everyone wants a deal regardless, but I’m wondering if I’m swimming upstream in light of some norms, or if the client is simply shopping around for a deal with whoever is willing to agree to do more for the same or less as another provider.

Hoping to hear from the client side what they think is reasonable and what is more normal/typical in their experience.

On 1/22/2022 at 2:49 PM, SamMiller213 said:

Wayyyyyyy overpriced.

That’s probably what the spas he worked at were charging (of which he only got a cut) and maybe he’s using that as his baseline. A bit steep for an independent guy offering therapeutic massage IMHO. Would make more sense if he’s delivering more on the deep end of the erotic service side of things. Seems likely. If anyone tries him, I’m curious too.

Same for me this morning. Seems to be back up and running again now.

Can we move this thread to the Deli?

Hot provider!

I agree. He can set his business model however he wants and operate that way, and nobody has to like it, but they should respect it. If he’s getting enough work, there’s no reason for him to complain.

I would not expect the hiring culture to change to fit his policies and way of doing business. I would, however, expect him to politely say ‘no’ when a client doesn’t fit his model for whatever reason, and then move on without any negative communications with the client or complaining about it.

@Jarrod_Uncut aims for clients who can give notice. He makes a point of this in how he advertises. Clients simply don’t read it or respect it.

However, I agree that we can’t change client behavior. We can accept that it’s a bad client, the wrong match, or bad timing and move on. “Sorry client, xyz doesn’t work for me for abc reason, good luck” something as simple as that.

Not get upset, not scold the client, not try to convince them to change their approach. They won’t, no matter how right you are. But you will still be irritated and that weighs on you and affects you.

It’s frustrating, I get it, you know I do because I deal with the same nonsense every day. Over time, I’m getting better and better at letting it go. If a client wants to be unreasonable, not read the ad, not accept a policy I have, or whatever, I politely decline and move on. 

I let it go…and not allow it bother me anymore!