Another(!) reason I fly only on my Private Jet.

[rguer]

The other two people were apparently a couple, too. So that's not a criterion.

It's OK, it seems, to tell both members of a couple to give up their seats; in the doctor's case they asked only one member of the couple to leave.

[+ bigjoey]

I haven't seen the official take on this. A lot of the legal kerfuffle hinges on passengers who have not yet boarded. Once on board, it's a whole different set of regulations for who can be removed.

 

My understanding is that the plane had been boarded and then the four employees came to be seated. If you or I tried that ("I'm a world-famous lawyer and I need to be in court in the morning!"), we'd be laughed off.

And yes, there are limits to how long a rest flight attendants have to have between flights, so they can hardly be held responsible for their job responsibilities that United created.

 

Oh, and the $1,350 cap is by federal law.

 

Not sure about the cap being a federal law. On NPR they had a story today that Delta raised the amount of money gate personal are authorized to offer up to $10,000!!

[+ bigjoey]

I haven't seen the official take on this. A lot of the legal kerfuffle hinges on passengers who have not yet boarded. Once on board, it's a whole different set of regulations for who can be removed.

 

My understanding is that the plane had been boarded and then the four employees came to be seated. If you or I tried that ("I'm a world-famous lawyer and I need to be in court in the morning!"), we'd be laughed off.

And yes, there are limits to how long a rest flight attendants have to have between flights, so they can hardly be held responsible for their job responsibilities that United created.

 

Oh, and the $1,350 cap is by federal law.

 

Not sure about the cap being a federal law. On NPR they had a story today that Delta raised the amount of money gate personal are authorized to offer up to $10,000!!

[corymonroe]

It's official: Delta will pay you up to $9,950 to give up your seat. That's one way to show up the competition and throw dirt in the face of United.

 

TMZ is reporting the following:

 

"United Airlines has just made a big change to its overbooking policy

 

Effective immediately, a passenger cannot be removed to accommodate a United crew member unless it's essential for the crew member to make the flight in order to work another flight, AND the crew member arrives at least 60 minutes before the doors close.

 

The idea is that the airline will make decisions on who to boot from a flight at the gate or lobby area ... before the passengers board the jet.

 

If a crew member arrives less than 60 minutes before the doors close, tough luck ... they have to take a later flight."

[corymonroe]

It's official: Delta will pay you up to $9,950 to give up your seat. That's one way to show up the competition and throw dirt in the face of United.

 

TMZ is reporting the following:

 

"United Airlines has just made a big change to its overbooking policy

 

Effective immediately, a passenger cannot be removed to accommodate a United crew member unless it's essential for the crew member to make the flight in order to work another flight, AND the crew member arrives at least 60 minutes before the doors close.

 

The idea is that the airline will make decisions on who to boot from a flight at the gate or lobby area ... before the passengers board the jet.

 

If a crew member arrives less than 60 minutes before the doors close, tough luck ... they have to take a later flight."

[+ azdr0710]

are we now going to see a domino effect with United as an easy target and a perennial villain?.....

 

the latest "scandal"......

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/travel/problems-mount-united-after-bride-groom-say-they-were-kicked-n747506

[mike carey]

are we now going to see a domino effect with United as an easy target and a perennial villain?

More likely folk will be emboldened to go public with their horror stories, no matter which airline it was with.

[LADoug1]

More likely folk will be emboldened to go public with their horror stories, no matter which airline it was with.

 

But I hope it isn't only to create "viral videos " and get their 15 minutes of fame.

[+ glennnn]

Have the lawsuits been filed yet? What is the official extent of his injuries? I've heard some hair raising stories, but not an official news story regarding how badly he was hurt.

[mike carey]

But I hope it isn't only to create "viral videos " and get their 15 minutes of fame.

I wasn't thinking of that, but it's possible, I was thinking more of people who thought nobody would care what an airline had done but have now seen that they are interested.

[+ MasssageGuy]

Extrapolate This Algorithm to Medicare, Health Care, etc...

 

"United Airlines Exposes Our Twisted Idea of Dignity"

"

The algorithm that decided to bump Dr. David Dao from an overbooked flight was trained to find the “lowest value customer” to inconvenience -- a coach passenger, naturally, not a business traveler, but also a passenger who had paid less than others and wasn’t a rewards member. In addition, the algorithm considered the immediate cost to the airline of bumping someone, which meant avoiding families, or requiring an overnight stay, to save reimbursement fees.

 

This all makes sense. Companies build algorithms to protect their interests, which in this case are profits. "

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-18/united-airlines-exposes-our-twisted-idea-of-dignity

[TruthBTold]

Well, how about my fucking algorithm. I want to get to where I am supposed to be going, at approximately the time that you said that I was going to be going, so that I can do what I was supposed to do. And I don't have to accept money to do that, especially since I already paid you money.

[mike carey]

Extrapolate This Algorithm to Medicare, Health Care, etc...

You highlight an important issue, for what things is the outcome that society expects 'making profits' rather than 'delivering the service'? Arguably for air transport, profit may be an acceptable outcome in which society may set limits about what is acceptable in delivering the service that generates the profits. Think safety regulations, customer rights (not just those illustrated in this instance, but also something like the Australian law that mandates 'total price' advertising - they aren't allowed to say 'plus taxes and fees' or the like). For some other things, like Medicare, health care, and I would argue public transit, the outcome should be a reasonable service at an affordable cost (to the user or to society/government). Companies should not have the social licence, much less the legal authority, to use their algorithms to avoid providing services that affect their profits. Obviously they need to cover costs, but I don't see 'for profit' as the optimum basis for delivering the services. Nothing wrong with for-profits running them, but they need to be subject to tight regulation. Trimming the level of service to increase profit should not be an option.

[+ bigjoey]

Trimming the level of service to increase profit should not be an option.

 

Not quite the case. The airlines have "trimmed the level of service" to lower prices like less leg room and tighter seats to fit more people in the plane and lower ticket prices. If you pay more, you get more service like meals and things like legroom. If the person wants more service, they can upgrade their ticket to business or first class. The airlines are giving the people what they want; PART of the fault lies with the airline customer. I do not hear many people saying: "I'll pay more if you give me a nice meal, a big roomy seat with lots of leg room, extra overhead space and early boarding, etc, I will pay more;" those that want these things do pay for them but their number is small. Instead the consumers mostly prowl the internet looking for the lowest cost fare.

 

I first started flying back in the 1950's when all the prices were the same regardless of the airline; the airlines could only compete on service and flying was wonderful but primarily an upper middle-class and upper class means of transport. The "mass" market did not exist for flying. Once Jimmy Carter signed the Airline Deregulation Act in 1978, the airlines started to compete on price as well as service. Mostly the consumer voted with their dollars for shit service but lower prices and the airlines gave the consumers what they wanted. From a few years ago:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

 

However, United Airlines was wrong in how they handled the case in question. They should have done the pure capitalistic thing and held an auction like many of the airlines do to find those willing to give up their seats: "Do I have a volunteer for $800...."

Edited April 19, 2017 by bigjoey

[mike carey]

@bigjoey my comment that you quoted was about things like medicare, health care and public transport. If governments are providing or managing these as essential services, they have a responsibility to ensure that an appropriate level of service is provided, whether by regulation or subsidy, and to prevent providers from trimming service levels. I had made a distinction between them and purely commercial services like airlines. I have no argument with you that airlines trim services (and inclusions) to boost profits. In the US, paying extra for baggage, meals etc has become the new normal, with some of them now creating new cabins to enable you to rent a seat with enough room for your legs. Thankfully, they use the yield management algorithms on those seats as well, so you can sometimes find them at a lower price than you would pay for a late notice cattle class seat.

[+ bigjoey]

@bigjoey my comment that you quoted was about things like medicare, health care and public transport. If governments are providing or managing these as essential services, they have a responsibility to ensure that an appropriate level of service is provided, whether by regulation or subsidy, and to prevent providers from trimming service levels. I had made a distinction between them and purely commercial services like airlines. I have no argument with you that airlines trim services (and inclusions) to boost profits. In the US, paying extra for baggage, meals etc has become the new normal, with some of them now creating new cabins to enable you to rent a seat with enough room for your legs. Thankfully, they use the yield management algorithms on those seats as well, so you can sometimes find them at a lower price than you would pay for a late notice cattle class seat.

 

Sorry, because you were talking about "profits," I thought you were talking about the airlines and not the services provided by the government where there are no profits.

 

Agree that there needs to be an "appropriate" level of services provided when it comes to health care and public transport.

[mike carey]

Sorry, because you were talking about "profits," I thought you were talking about the airlines and not the services provided by the government where there are no profits.

No problems, I suspected that might have been what happened. I was talking about profits in the context of government services that are tendered out to private companies or the entities providing them are privatised.

[MikeyGMin]

held an auction like many of the airlines do to find those willing to give up their seats: "Do I have a volunteer for $800...."

 

The CEO of United Airlines admitted during his first "apology" interview that there needed to be different policies for ejections once customers were boarded. Duh!

 

I don't believe for a minute that the apology was sincere. It's just another example of the power of social media and cell phone cameras everywhere.

 

As Rihanna so eloquently puts it in one of my favorite songs:

 

"Don't tell me you're sorry cause you're not

Baby when I know you're only sorry you got caught"

[Ronin512]

NPR had a story this morning on the incident. Because the man was Chinese, in China they are viewing this as "racist." The video has gone viral in China with over 200 million views. People there are wanting to boycott United for their "racist," anti-Chinese behavior.

Except he was Vietnamese. No excuse for behavior of United or Chicago Airport Police but not anti Chinese

[Ronin512]

The "victim" here is not Chinese. He is of Vietnamese decent. Married father of 5, 4 of whom followed him and their mother into medical careers.

 

He's also a convicted felon who supplied drugs to a former patient, gay lover who aided the authorities in arresting him for drug violations.

 

He's only recently returned to the medical profession and is still under supervisory watch for his lack of current medical treatments.

 

He has also been identified as having social interaction issues, lacking coping skills in stressful situations.

 

His wife was seated by him on the plane.

 

I think United Airlines suffered the luck of the draw in choosing to deny him his seat. Then Chicago Airport Security officers added injury to the insult, but no reasonable person would have reacted the way Dr Dao did..

Nonsense. What was unreasonable about politely but firmly ( as evidenced by later passenger videos) refusing to comply with an unreasonable request. No attempt at character assignation can muddy the basic facts.

[instudiocity]

Nonsense. What was unreasonable about politely but firmly ( as evidenced by later passenger videos) refusing to comply with an unreasonable request. No attempt at character assignation can muddy the basic facts.

Yes, and I will line up to see a 69 year old MD who is allowed practice 1 day per week under supervision of the state medical board.

 

Dude's elevator doesn't get past the first floor.

[LADoug1]

Nonsense. What was unreasonable about politely but firmly ( as evidenced by later passenger videos) refusing to comply with an unreasonable request. No attempt at character assignation can muddy the basic facts.

 

He clearly has interpersonal issues but I don't think he's the only passenger who would have reacted similarly.

 

Still the most important thing to remember is regardless of his personality United and the airport police were completely wrong in their handling of the situation.

[LADoug1]

Yes, and I will line up to see a 69 year old MD who is allowed practice 1 day per week under supervision of the state medical board.

 

Dude's elevator doesn't get past the first floor.

 

Regardless of his malfunctioning elevator he was treated horribly.

[instudiocity]

Regardless of his malfunctioning elevator he was treated horribly.

In response to his continuing and repeated refusal to comply with contractual and lawful requests AFTER being informed of the consequences of his refusal.

 

That's before BEFORE he was "treated horribly."

 

[MikeyGMin]

Dude's elevator doesn't get past the first floor.

And yet... his histrionics and act of civil disobedience is going to get him a large payout and has forced the airlines to change their policies regarding booting off passengers who have already boarded. Yeah, he's a real dummy.